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Removing group recalls

Shack Dougall
self become: Object new
Join date: 9 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,028
05-16-2005 06:06
From: Malana Spencer
Personally I feel the recall should be kept. There are different situations where a group may need a recall. It's much easier to do a recall then leave & create a new group, Particularly if land is involved.


It might be helpful if you could present a hypothetical situation where this is the case and also indicate how many times you have observed something like this.

Although I can imagine recall being good in a hypothetical sense, I haven't seen good uses for it in practice. It seems like it would be a good optional thing in a general overhaul of groups, including better distribution/assignment of power, and configurable distribution of wealth.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-16-2005 06:09
What Shack said.

Time to stop being utopianist and hypothetical about this actually being used in some kind of positive way. Let's actually total up the cases when it was used for good, not ill, and study them. I've never seen a single one used for good. And I've seen lots of them.

I'm going to also suggest that the times they are used in landed groups are probably 99 percent for ill -- it's in landed groups where it really makes a difference in terms of screwing somebody out of their land potentially.

The bother of making a new group for $100 is small potatoes compared to the loss of thousands of dollars worth of land.
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Sox Rampal
Slinky Vagabond
Join date: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 338
05-17-2005 07:07
From: Lo Jacobs
That would probably be helpful :) I have heard that it is mostly used as a griefing tool. Basically, if you don't like who's running the group, then leave it ;)


Ditto - we've had our group shut down 3 times by griefers.
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
05-17-2005 07:40
I have been in a few situations in my stay in SL where we have needed to Ax group officers, and the found was long gone from SL.

I think what we need is a group president who, by default is the group founder. I don't have an issue with officer recalls, as annoying as they are; but making it an option to hault officer recalls and elections would be a good thing. Depending on how the group is setup, there would be president elections or not.

Basicly what is being said in this thread is: "We want better structured groups, beyond just the two levels provided."

One of my gripes, while a recall is going on nobody can join the group. Why is this? I would imagine it could be made so that new members can't vote in elections from before they joined the group.
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annie Lily
RAWRR!
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 27
05-23-2005 09:51
I think the founder needs to have the authority to demote officers...or even give the group to someone.

I know of someone right now who is a founder of a group, and wants the group disbanded...and is stuck. As long as 3 officers remain...it cant disband. If a founder leaves a group...and the officers left decide to use the group for a different purpose than intended, well then the founders name is on the group...and they are associated with those actions. Its wrong! Even with the recall process...the founder cant disband the group, as long as the remaining officers keep promoting the demoted member.

I do hope the new version will give the founder some authority because as it stands now...once you found a group, your name is plastered on it forever. :( I will definately think carefully before founding any group after seeing what this person is dealing with.
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
05-23-2005 23:18
if you do this, you need to make it so there is some way to remove inactive officers.

every so often some officer goes inactive, and they haven't left the group.
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
05-24-2005 14:50
What annie says is a real problem, and the only workaround is for the founder to leave the group and take tier out of it and hope it disbands without him.

It would be good if the founder had the option to withdraw or cancel his invitation to an officer to join, i.e. if necessary, to demote the officer to member, or to expel him. This seems vital.

The founder should have a status of president, and he should be able to upgrade others to that equal status of president or presiding officers and be able to boot some officers.
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Dragon Steele
Artist/conservationist
Join date: 3 Jan 2005
Posts: 183
06-13-2005 08:49
Yup the founder should be allowed to remove any one he of she sees fit.

the vote should still be allowed to happen but the founder would have to execute the demoting or kicking of the Officers.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
06-13-2005 09:15
Dragon, I don't believe the vote should be allowed to happen as a default, I believe that this should be a toggle -- a permission -- that a group can choose to have or not to have when they are created.

Currently rogue members trying to defeat the purpose of a group, griefers trying to attack groups, and idiots who can't figure out the buttons, all paralyze and disrupt groups with these votes. They can last 7 days.

During that time, no new members can join. This is hugely disruptive especially for a tenants or vendors group. No one can put in a roomie or join the group or have a temp member. It's just insane.

So get rid of that crippling vote function, which only paralyzes groups needlessly, and make it a function that is toggled.
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
06-13-2005 10:25
i'd say for *any* publically joinable group, axe it, as it can be used to try an 'mass' in an take over some group which may or may not have land or other assets etc... also the recall in process 'locks out' other people from joining so it can be used as a grief tool that way.


for private invite only groups, allow the founder to select whether the group is recallable or not... but overall i can't think of very many situations where this has ever been used to any advantage to anyone
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
06-13-2005 11:28
From: someone
but overall i can't think of very many situations where this has ever been used to any advantage to anyone


I couldn't agree more, eltee, but there's always a few who keep bringing up its putative beneficial use, usually with some high utopian commune ideal in mind, and this seems to sway *some* Lindens every time. So please, keep talking, because it's a real damaging feature of groups to have this.
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
06-13-2005 11:34
from what i have heard...

1.7 is supposed to include an overhaul of groups in general, giving more ability to specifically suit permissions to an individual groups needs, as well as giving the founder the ability to over-ride many otherwise potentially harmful actions by its members
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Brace Coral
Basic Account Crew
Join date: 11 May 2004
Posts: 666
Yep Toss It!!
06-15-2005 14:26
Also for long term:

Some other way to send messages out to the group that is NOT linked to a proposal/voting process.

Its VERY confusing to most people, and in general, if you aren't online when the "proposal" message goes out, the process to read it after logging in is cumbersome.

It would be SO wonderful to have a "Message To the Group" instead of "Brace Coral Has Proposed a Vote on" type thing. Most people get so worried about what buttons to press to "vote" that they don't even end up reading the message to begin with.

Aside from griefing recall "elections" this is the single most frustrating thing for me.

Also if possible a blue text "ping" that reminds the person to "Check Messages" and have the process be SIMPLE: Click on a the messages tab or whatever and read. The reminder goes away after the person had read the current message.
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Palomma Casanova
Free Dove Owner
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 635
06-15-2005 18:39
Ohhhhh!! I have been asking to remove that recall feature. I have like 3 officers in my groups that left SL, and I have send for a recall to remove these people. However everytime I do it people get confused and they don't vote. These names been in my groups taking space for months and months and months. I have sent emails to lindens since I was told to do that and still NOTHING!!!

Please do something about groups. Fix the recall better. Also a way to send emails to averyone in the group. or transfer money to members or selected members.

Another feature to send an item or notecards.

Please something has to be done with this group feature. :(
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Ms Kitty
SL Explorer/Shopaholic
Join date: 26 Dec 2004
Posts: 24
Definitely axe the feature
06-16-2005 17:58
In two of the groups I am member of some malicious persons have joined pushed that recall button wherever it is...lol...and tried to oust officers a number of times. They do this anonymously and just to be a PITA. So pleaseeeeeeee get rid of that feature. Thank you.

Ms Kitty
Apotheus Silverman
I write code.
Join date: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 416
06-17-2005 09:36
I would welcome this change.
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
06-17-2005 12:32
Allow recalls, just to be democratic, but it takes at least 5% of the group population to start one, and until that 5% have tried to start one, no one else in the group is notified.

This way, there has to be a word-of-mouth campaign before every member of the group is asked to vote. Think of it like a pettition.
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Shack Dougall
self become: Object new
Join date: 9 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,028
06-17-2005 12:37
From: Tiger Crossing
Allow recalls, just to be democratic, but it takes at least 5% of the group population to start one, and until that 5% have tried to start one, no one else in the group is notified.

This way, there has to be a word-of-mouth campaign before every member of the group is asked to vote. Think of it like a pettition.


No, no, no, NO! :)

A group is not a democracy. A democracy is one of many types of groups.
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
06-17-2005 14:04
From: Tiger Crossing
Allow recalls, just to be democratic, but it takes at least 5% of the group population to start one, and until that 5% have tried to start one, no one else in the group is notified.

This way, there has to be a word-of-mouth campaign before every member of the group is asked to vote. Think of it like a pettition.


Dunno, Tiger. In our situation, we use the Luskwood group just for the founders. We pay for the whole place, take care of it... We -want- to be able to invite "members" into the group, we really do, but we haevn't been able to, because really, someone could throw a coup.

While a coup may be good for a government, it isn't, for a group project. Some groups need democracy, some do not. (With deference to the idealists who will reply that all do.)
Katrina Bixby
Registered User
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 9
07-12-2005 23:37
From: Don Linden
I mean completely removing the ability to initiate a vote to recall an officer (which demotes an officer to member status).


Thank you. Yes there needs to be a change. I will give my recommendation then, explain why.
I recommend the officers have option to have a officer recall vote or a membership.
We have a member, made an officer, that is breaking all of sl polices and ours.

Using foul language in grp chat, expressing raceist remarks, and a position against gays. the group, (122 members) is sick of it. We file abuse repts. Now my only option is to eject none active (limited active) members to reduce the 2/3 needed to recall this officer.
I dont think a recall should be easy.

But maybe after the officers vote, 2/3 then the membership vote 5%. would work.
This per is stepping on toes, and is offensive (nut) must the grp loses members that dont want to hear the negativity?

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Palomma Casanova
Free Dove Owner
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 635
07-13-2005 08:45
The founder is the one that should have the ability to do anything with anyone.

I can't wait to see a change. I still have those three people in my group and they left SL almost a year ago and I can't get rid of the names!!!
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Darcy Rutledge
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
07-13-2005 15:36
From: Don Linden
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. For 1.7, I will probably just remove recalls and give founders the ability to demote an officer.

The other group improvement suggestions sound very good, perhaps you could create a proposal on the Feature Voting Tool?


What about if the Founder is no longer in the group? Will that 'status' go to the person who has then been in the group the next longest? Just wondering here. Thanks
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Darcy Rutledge
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Jac Clayton
Registered User
Join date: 30 May 2005
Posts: 2
07-14-2005 19:26
How about whenever a founder leaves the group, he/she will have the option to either disband the group, or pass the founder status to another person?
Darcy Rutledge
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
07-15-2005 06:57
that would be good for the present and future situations, but I am in a group where the founder left a long time ago and someone else had promoted herself to 'leader'.
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Darcy Rutledge
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Katrina Bixby
Registered User
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 9
Being leader of a grp requires leadership and work.
07-23-2005 06:58
I am in a grp with a commond theme. The founder left, the oldest member and their crew did nothing but say "greetings" on the grp chanel for months when a member, ie myself, decided to meet some of these ppl for the first time by holding a grp fundraiser yard sale, the oldest members were outraged! offended, and to my surprise did not appreciate the effort.

I was accussed inopen grp chat of trying to take over the group. 4 members attended the yard sale, and they too were happy to meet others in this grp. As a team we held other events.

The oldest members planned a grp meeting. They did not show, I took over the meeting that had about 11 present, Announced I will lead the grp.

The grp grew form 14 to 126 with in 3 months. Now the grp has 3 regular events every week, has officers (chain of command), land, web sites, awards ball has honored the founders "oldest members" promoted the oldest members. A few left, no lost.

My point is If the leader is not leading then they need to be replaced...........

Like some open a club recrute ppl and thats it. Nothing else come of it. Is that a leader?
A leader dosent do it all, they just work with ppl to accomplish goals. But if u have no goal? Well it a waste of time isnt it. -Smile- Katrina Bixby-Mechanique..
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