gambling or not

as game-developer i have a big problem at the moment , who decide if game is gampling or not

a have developed a "new" game , that shares some features of a sploder but the payout depends not on random but on skill

(see /198/86/200621/1.html)

some forums a a locking a entry about that game

how can i prove (let somebody decide) thats is not gambling
(without making it opensource )

g.t.

p.s. excuse the terrible english ( i am only a bloody kraut)

i am no linden nor do i fully know what they are considering gambling. BUT anytime you pay a bit of money on a "CHANCE" to make more money then most consider that gambling. now if you pay a entry fee and compete in a competition and the winner or several of the top winners win a portion of the entries that is not gambling. the difference being "SKILL" not "LUCK" that decides the winner. your new sploder requires luck to win and i would presume that is why they have deemed it gambling. but its just a shot in the dark.

you perfeclty described my game

the similarities are more optic and how you entry the competition,
the winner(s) will be determined through a little game of skill (sudoku at this point)
and all participant play the same set


the entries in other forums are back online , so it seems no gambling

but its seems pretty unsafe to produce games with hint of suspicion to be gambling

g.t.

look at this thread...

/327/03/200203/1.html

in my opinion it is not gambling...

yep , thats also my point of view

but the opinions on that are very different on that term , so it would be nice to have same kind of certainty as a developer

many potentiell buyers are not certain if its gamling or not , and the delete of a forum entry makes it not better

i understand you, as a developer i want some kind of centainty too

but if you read the post in Linden blog... they have written word "AND" in capital letters...

if this kind of game is gambling, then, the problem is different... they haven´t learned to write at school... or we haven´t learned to read at school...

Based on the legal wording of their policy, as long as random number generation is not used to DETERMINE A WINNER, then it's not gambling. This means that technically, Poker does not fall into this category, as random number generation does not DETERMINE the winner. The winner is determined by who holds the best cards, which, although the cards are received based on random number generation, that's not how it's picking a winner. The winner is based on some sort of skill, AFTER the random number generation.

The policy is very clear that the game cannot use random number generation to DETERMINE the winner. But if there's some other sort of skill involved, and it's not pure random numbers "choosing a winner" ( i.e. slots, most sploders, etc), then it doesn't fall under their new policy.

The Lindens weren't very smart when writing this policy, and they're gonna have to rewrite it. There's a million loopholes, including letting people pay money to play games, then giving them some sort of in-store credit, or something similar. They should have had people who "play" second life, read the policy before it went into place, rather than only letting the people that build second life, have their input.

So, I create a game that uses random numbers to give out cards, but then it's all strategy from there, and the winner is based on the moves of that player, then the winner wasn't based on random number generation. It was based on skill.

the orignal linden post did include gambling cardgames such as poker and black jack to name a few so i think you are mistaken on this portion of the subject.

i see a large contradiction in terms here. We are being told games of chance are NO NO's. And games of skill are OK. With the exception of. games like blackjack and poker.

Blackjack and the various forms of Poker are the traditional games of skill. Video and Pai Go Poker expand the choices, but are simply variations on the theme. They are in fact games of skill, yet are under the TOS and are banned objects.

we contradict ourselves? Very well then we contradict ourselves.

yep , you can expand that statement about many local cardgames.
the question is what should be the proportione between luck and skill
than almost any game have a part random in it

surely..but what i'm saying is by expert definitions of RL gaming. What we have going on is circular reasoning. When they (LL) says no chance games, and who is defining those games? Are they aware that there are games of skill that they add to to list? And for what reason? We have to see the rational behind this pick and choose what is skill and chance.

If they go by RL "laws" that prevent chance games to be used. Then we have to go by RL experts definitions to what is games of skill, and that being poker, blackjack are 2 games of skill that are on the black list of type of games. Show me by definition that poker and blackjack are chance games. And i will eat a flexi hat.

i am 101% on your side, we need a logical and comprehensible definination what make a game "gambling".

Their is a effect of chance at poker, but its only a effect and it will be reduced with the number of rounds that you play

Skill based games are not classed as gambling.

On another note. Anyone who previously operated a casino in SL please contact me to discuss.

We may want to use your old casino building to advertise.

Contact:

[email]jont@casinored.com[/email]

Cheers

Java Moody

How about a skill game where opponents can wager one another. With the "house" taking a fee per play or pot percentage.

I would like to be involved in a project like that, and I have some ideas on avoiding the policy police.

My first life is as a criminal defense attorney.

I think it's pretty obvious. If random numbers play a part in determining the winner, eg random cards being dealt to a player, then it's gambling. If the winner is based on skill alone, eg the first person to complete a randomly generated sodoku game (where everyone plays the SAME randomly generated board) then it's skill. If everyone played a different randomly generated sodoku board, then it's gambling.

Not really, this whole issue gives me a headache . I was never much into gambling RL or otherwise, very rarely socially but thats it. The thing is I've developed games and from a developers perspective, no its not obvious, you have to look at things as numbers and variables every day in your coding.

Can I put a few scenario's to people and see if they can help me get my head around it.


Game 1

Maze – 5 Contestants pay 20 linden dollars, the first one to reach the end of the maze wins the pot.

The maze contains random effects, moving walls, even the occasional falling floor.

Is this gambling? The effects are chance, there is money involved.


Game 2

An FPS game, against scripted opponents.

Again you pay money to support the place running it. The AI involved is partially random in how it approaches the player, if you make it through you win a small prize.

Again, chance involved in the game, risk and money. (Which is needed to keep the place running)


Game 3

Throwing balls into a hoop.

The hoop has a random degree of movement to it, which is not scripted to be a specific routine. Again the game costs money, so as to keep it worth running and yes it pays out a small prize if you score enough points in your throws.


As far as I can see, there is risk/chance involved in any good game, at least any I am interested in, otherwise what is the point? And if it costs Linden dollars, its gambling to a degree isn't it?

Gambling Definitions to think about:

the act of playing for stakes in the hope of winning (including the payment of a price for a chance to win a prize);

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/gambling


1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance: to gamble on a toss of the dice.
–verb (used with object)
3. to lose or squander by betting (usually fol. by away): He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4. to wager or risk (money or something else of value): to gamble one's freedom.
***5. to take a chance on; venture; risk: I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.***
–noun
6. any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.
7. a venture in a game of chance for stakes, esp. for high stakes.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gambling



a. ***To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.***
b. To play a game of chance for stakes.
2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
v.tr.
1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.
2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.
n.
1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.
2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: ***I took a gamble that stock prices would rise. ***


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gambling


All I can really gather at looking at this in yet more detail is that any game, with any small part of random code/scripting, which offers a prize and or costs Linden, could be considered illegal?

Or are we just talking about degree's of grey?

Perhaps it might be defined as games which have obvious and stated random variables to players, not those that hide it behind the code? I think this helps somewhat to highlight obvious games of risk but leaves property/stock market investing in a deeply grey area (see the last quote above!)

Then I think about a game such as this:

If 15 contestants enter a quiz and are given individual, yet random questions and a cash prize for winning, is this not gambling if a random number is used to decide the questions?

No easy answers and I think the following points from the above quotes cause me the most confusion really.

-To take a chance on; venture; risk: I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.

-I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

-To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.

-Any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.

-The act of playing for stakes in the hope of winning