Standardizing RP combat.

One thing to point out. Free Enterprise.

Some people simply feel that their RP experience should not be, functionally and financially, controlled by someone else. I found it quite interesting a while back when the maker of one of these combat systems felt his business was being squeezed out by a more popular system. I've had weapons developers worry about being squeezed out by a monopoly which has exclusive access to codes for enhanced damage.

Perhaps one system could be likened to Microsoft in the computer world or Wizards of the Coast's d20 system in another. NO matter how universal you want things to be there will be computer users who would rather use Linux or gamers that would rather play Rolemaster or GURPS. They have the right to do so, and moreover creators have the right to do business in a free enterprise system without fear of a monopoly squeezing them out. Ok maybe I am wrong, maybe creators don't have that right or maybe larger conglomerates have the right to crush them under their heel (probably more accurate).

In any case Free Enterprise in SL is what it boils down do until LL decides to become a Communist collective *listens for din of laughter*

I only clarified what you said about d20 being a universal system.. you can't own one rulebook and then go play any..you have to at least READ those toher rulebooks, if not buy your own copy.

A good example is white wolf - You could not go from playing Vampire to playing Werewolf, even though they used the same stat/clan or tribe/background/merit/flaw/skills system. You have to either own or read the other book.

You see no reason to continue because you can't logically come up with a rebuttal.

I've already rebutted it, but since you insist on continuing, here's what I really think:

You're a regressive, bent on persuading people that SL should remain in its current, infant state. You're no better than any other regressive. So feel free to prattle on about whatever it is you'd like to prattle on about.

If SL is perfect to you then get the fuck out of my thread and go play it.

II

As the short-sighted moron says:

"NO matter how universal you want things to be there will be computer users who would rather use Linux or gamers that would rather play Rolemaster or GURPS. They have the right to do so, and moreover creators have the right to do business in a free enterprise system without fear of a monopoly squeezing them out. Ok maybe I am wrong, maybe creators don't have that right or maybe larger conglomerates have the right to crush them under their heel (probably more accurate).

In any case Free Enterprise in SL is what it boils down do until LL decides to become a Communist collective *listens for din of laughter*"

Again, putting words in my mouth. Nobody is talking about a monopoly, we're talking about a standard. You're an illiterate halfwit. Read before you reply next time, and stop putting words into my mouth you lying sack of shit scumbag.

II

You know, it's just a given. Any successful community, industry, business -- any collection of like-minded people that every accomplish anything -- they have some kind of standards.

SL has high player turnover because of piss-poor user experience. Obviously, if the users were having a good time, they'd stick around.

We're not talking about building monopolies, cancelling creativity, or robbing you of your anarchistic paradise. We're talking about uniting developers in such a way that they can give players a way to have fun without hours upon hours of reading and prep time just for moving from sim to sim, not to mention the money that costs.

Since the mods will lock this thread anyway for my last two posts, I'll make it worth their time:

I hate regressives, anarchists, conservatives and libertarians. I know many of you scumbags wish civilization would collapse to make way for some kind of jungle in which you think you could reign supreme, but we have progress and standards for a reason. To that end, SL is your little escape. You hate traffic lights in real life, so you want an idiot paradise to which you can escape online.

The problem -- in real life and Second Life and wherever you extend your idiot ideas -- is you. I wish you could be burned out and that your pitiful, subadequate gene pools could be erased. I wish you could be stacked, shipped, tattooed, gassed and burned. You are society's baggage. You are less necessary and less helpful to society at large than cow shit, with which we can at least plant a lovely garden.

I wish all the backwards scum could be removed so as to stop stealing my oxygen and holding up my traffic. The fact is, the 20% of the world that is forward-thinking has been dragging you scumbags kicking and screaming every time anything has advanced.

If I were you, I'd kill my parents for pooping me out to be less than human.

II

Although the gaming experience will be better if you read the rulebooks, because of the similarity in mechanics it's possible to do quite well as long as there are players that know the specific milieu. Heck, even having read the rulebooks, a lot of the times I still have questions about the specifics of the game I'm playing. It's always good to have one of those obsessive players that reads and rereads the rules, and provides citations during the game when questions arise.

There's a system in development right now that is based on the d20 rulebooks. That decision was done deliberately because of the familiarity it was assumed many players would have with the d20 system. After the core system is done and working, other genres can be added to it, allowing for different types of play.

This system isn't really designed to compete directly with the combat systems that are out there. It offers a different sort of gaming experience than what's out there currently (at least from what I've seen), using the traditional paradigm of GM and players. A campaign devised by the GM, played in scenarios, with the RP HUD handling the mechanics.

There's more to it, but I don't want to go on about it too much in this thread. Primary development is being done by Baroun Tardis and Avery Gladstone.

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has used CCS, RCS, and DCS combat systems. For the sake of full disclosure and fairness I will say that I am a GM in Toxian City and friends with the owners and developers of the DCS combat system.
So the strength of the DCS system in my opinion may be precisely the thing that prevents it from being the "standard" that the original poster asks for. It is extremely popular and at last count I believe it was being used in 37 sims in including Dark/Vampire type, star wars, and Gor and some fantasy sims. The reason is this, in spite of some of its percieved limitations from a Sim owners perspective it is quite flexible. It can be configured using XP, levels or none at all dynamically by the sim owner. Powers and races can be adjusted and renamed to suit each particular sims Flavor. It also dynamically detects the sim you are in. So I can go from Toxia to Telos and my DCS will automatically change me from Human to Dark Jedi with the stats and powers adjusted for that particular sim.

I don't mean this to be a commercial for DCS although I do like its features. My point is Sim owners and players don't want standardization in the sense of the Original Post unless I am misunderstanding. Each sim has different needs and Desires. A Gorean sim will have different desires than a Starwars or Fantasy or Dark Sim or just the owners or players have different ideas of what they want. The fact that some sims Demand a level system and some wanted to use XP and that the Gorean Sims wanted the capture feature of DCS expanded to me is proof that there really cannot be just one standard for SL RPG. But since it is being used in 37 sims already DCS is as close to a standard as I know of right now. I can also tell you that the Developer Dimentox Travanti is actively working on improving it and making it better all the time.

To get back to true roleplay , I think we need to get rid of mouselook, work entirely on character sheets for turn based combat and leave all the rest of the gameplay to the GM, you also need GM controlled NPC's.
Mouselook can be fun too, but it all comesback still to computer speed/connection, player ability, not the character. Wonder why the Linden basic system is still even kept?
Having said all that, I really should get back to work on my 1% progressed Cyberpunk inspired system................

Before I reply to the larger issue at hand I will reply to the last post.
RP in SL is really more like LARP ( Live Action Roleplay ) with avatars than an actual turn based system. To attempt to recreate either the experience of a first person shooter or a table top turn based rpg in SL is doomed to fall short as it tries to wedge the SL environment into a different game playing milieu.

And as I remind people on a regular basis. The players not the system ultimately affect the quality of the roleplay. Combat is not required in any of the Sims that I frequent regularly. If you want to role play all you have to do is role play. You can find players in any of the popular role play sims to interact with. If you are not getting the quality of role play you desire then keep moving on to different players until you find the ones that will role play with you, and avoid the ones that do not. If you lead by example you will find that people will follow and ultimately everyones experience will be enhanced.


The larger question by the original post is the need for an SL rpg standard combat system.
In my humble opinion even if many people wanted this I'm not sure if it is even possible for a few reasons.
Different people have different ideas of what kind of system they want.
No single system will satisfy anyone. This is precisely the reason DCS2 provides sim owners the flexibility to implement a combat system that fits with their ideas of how a rpg should be implemented.

Secondly even if you implemented the most bad ass responsive flexible system ever smart creative people will still continue to develop new systems and implement them.

So the only way a standardized system will emerge is if the "free market" chooses one system over another. It cannot be imposed from the top down.

To respond to Poblano, I agree that roleplay right now in Second Life is much akin to a LARP. But I don't think it has to be that way. The avatars can be used much like traditional miniatures are used on a tabletop, if desired. There's a bit of a blurring between LARP and tabletop because of the way Second Life works, but it can be separated as much as the players want it to be. I've even seen where avatars are manipulating miniatures on a tabletop within Second Life.

And you're right, the players are not the system. The best system in the world can be broken by bad players or a bad GM. And the worst can be made enjoyable by good players and GM. But there is still going to be a differences in style, and different systems will work better for some gaming styles than for others.

As for combat vs. roleplay, I haven't had much experience with scenarios. The sort of mystery that needs to be investigated like you'd get in Call of Cthulhu. A GM who knows all the ins and outs, controls the villains, and presents the players with clues certainly makes that sort of a game possible. I don't know if that's possible in any of the roleplay areas in Second Life right now, but I haven't seen it. Most of what I've seen seems to me (and I'll admit I may be mistaken) to be people stepping into the role and trying to live it, reacting in a very freeform manner to what is going on around them.

Finally, again I agree, adoption of a system will come from the players. You can't impose a system on them, any more than a gaming company can dictate to the traditional audience what system to play. If a system is good, and provides what people want, they'll adopt it. If something better comes along, they'll switch to it if they decide it's cost effective, or keep playing the old one if they prefer that. As long as there are enough players around on the same system, it should work. That's the critical thing--If I've got a group of players I can get together with on a regular basis, and we have fun playing the game, it doesn't matter if it's the most or least popular system out there.

Portions of this thread have been deleted (by the poster), I'm going to lock this.