Moving the self-governance discussion in-world...

So you choise to OPT out and that is your privalage. Doing nothing is also a choice even if it does not seem that way to you. I have given up the madness that the mainland areas have become. This is my choice. Also the sim is not closed. You can visit it if you wish.

Actually what you are describing is opting IN to the government. Opting out would mean we were included without our consent.

Well you log on to Second Life and have accepted the TOS. I am using the words of the Lindens because they are not mine. Either you accept a form of goverment or not, either you opt in or out.

I would have have to opt IN to a resident run as I live on a mainland Sim. I don't have to do anything to avoid player govt there.

This is a good thing, by nature each group/sim will have its own form of government or order. I'm totally for individual group governments, because when we form small group governments our chances for uniting are better and there is little or no "drama" that needs to be resolved. Like I said in my earlier post the problem happens when we group too big and if we have an SL government we can't just leave it like we can leave a sim or group. If we don't like it we would have to leave SL, rather not play the game.

This is where the problem arises: SL is in fact a game but it is also another completely new reality like RL. For most residents who enjoy SL and have formed an actual second life, we physically can't leave the In-World because we don't like it, similarly we cant just leave our RL Reality because we don't like it (there is only one way out and we all know the answer). This has the potential to cause mass avatar suicide, people who don't like what is happening will in essence kill their avatar, kill their second life all because somebody won't let us be who we want to be in our individual groups/sims/governments/whatever.

I think we'd all agree that joining SL and agreeing to the ToS is opt-in. By the same token, joining a resident run gov't is also opt-in. In both cases, it's fairly easy to opt out. There seems to be a fear that in the near future that a majority of the mainland and the islands might fall under a single monolithic resident run gov't. This would turn avatars into citizens or outlaws living on the fringes. I just can't see that happening, just look at the facts:

We have perhaps 4-6 (defined by how you define gov't) resident run govt's that are beyond a simple renter/landlord arrangement. These gov'ts comprise less than 1% of avatars and available land mass.

It is fairly easy to leave a resident run govt (RRG), and I don't mean leave SL. However, a newb leaving SL is much easier than someone like Anshe Chung leaving SL given the time and investment. For Anshe, it's all the upheaval of the SL interests in her company.

There are significant differences in SL vs. RL. One of which is the constant availability and creation of new land. At some point if/when LL opens up hosting and migrates to open source, you'll be able to host your own island.

You can teleport, and leave at will. This is not the USSR or North Korea. You can teleport to any part of the grid without time or effort or red tape. It would actually take some real effort to fence off a telehub etc to enable resticted travel.

Corruption: Yes, resident moderated disputes are subject to corruption. They are in RL too. If, for example, the Neufreistadt SC is found as a court to be corrupt and partial then most avatars will not a priori want them to settle disputes. They will prefer to use an alternate mechanism, such as Prokovy Neva's new 512 court.

Let's look into the future a bit here. It seems to me that LL ideally wants SL to become:
A) The new web
B) The Snow Crash Metaverse made real

Where leaving is difficult is when you've joined a gov't run sim, made large investments and want to leave, leaving behind large interests. Yes, this is difficult. Bear in mind that all IP is yours and relocating is no where near as difficult as in RL.

We now have ~7k avatars online at once. If the platform truly grows we can't expect LL to adjudicate all disputes any more than we can expect them to fully police the Internet. One may argue that Blizzard polices the larger WoW to this effect, but I feel that the WoW environment is more contstrained that SL. Part of SL's appeal is it's anarcho-libertarian roots. LL is hoping that resident mediation/government will simply emerge organically. It has slowly started.

I can't ever imagine SL without avatars having the rich option of submitting only to the LL ToS. In theory you won't even need to do that, once the platform is opened and you can host your island at home.

Isnt the world just split into lots of dictoratorship, whoever is paying for the land dictates what can be done on it.

I view the game from a business perspective and thats how I will approach it. Any problems I come across I will react in the same way I would do irl.

Yes it's a series of dictatorships. On land you own, you are the absolute ruler. Business structures actually tend to work best as a dictatorship of sorts. So, yes, you can easily treat SL land as the owner would company property. The existing tools make this the default situation and 99% of the grid works this way. There are some cases of more structured, benevolent feudalism, like Caledon. Creating a democracy, like Neufreistadt, is difficult but possible with the existing toolset.

Gee...I quess no one tried that experiment I suggested earlier in this thread...not that I'm surprised by that. Anyone got time to read the Tao? #38. ...when Tao is lost, there is goodness, when goodness is lost , there is kindness, when kindness is lost, there is justice, when justice is lost there is ritual...the beginning of folly. Why do we insist on repeating all of this? Virtual reality becomes nothing really new...just another stage for the same old stuff. Government? I hope not.

Neal, I totally misunderstood what you meant by that thought experiment. Your earlier post sounded kinda like this: free your mind from the most noticeable preoccupation that demands too much attention relative to its worth. Hopefully your new mental state will have greater clarity. Use that clarity to notice what your new mental state contains. Find the most noticeable preoccupation that demands too much attention relative to its worth. And so on....

That's how I interpreted your earlier post, and I ended up thinking about physics, since I like abstractions, and like asking how our ad hoc mental apparatus might be biasing our approach to huge interesting questions that are staring us right in the face. You don't have to be a physicist to find this sort of thing compelling. But most forum posters don't gravitate toward abstractions, so why post about that? Most seem to feel the need to focus; there's a lot of work to do.

Still...it seems to be part of the creative process to 'clear the mental slate', and use that clarity as a workspace. Somewhat analogous to sketching on a blank sheet of paper instead of a newspaper.

But your most recent post describes something different: a process of stripping away preoccupations of great worth, and being left with less each time, ending up with only ritual. : (

I don't share your pessimism, btw. SL is a wonderful medium for collaborative creativity -- that's why I like working for clients. The sim owner client is delighted to open his or her mind to me on the topic of what this project will become.... Sometimes I can't tell ahead of time which of my client's requests will turn out to be the important ones, and which will end up not being used by visitors to the sim. But that's part of the process. A virtual world is FAR superior for followup re-evaluation and change. We don't have to pay for construction materials, specialized engineering or fabrication so we don't have the kind of budget stress that causes so much rancor in RL construction projects when changes need to be made.

Could you list the ones you're aware of? I know of Neufreistadt and Caledon. What other interesting experiments in government are out there?

There used to be some terrific case studies of these in Frank Lardner's and Traxx Hathor's law society forum. Representatives of these organizations (or any I've missed), please chime in with a brief synopsis of your orgs/resident run govt's. Here are a few from memory:

Port Neualtenburg: Artisanal Collective
The Gorean Sims
The Elves (Darkwood/Lusk?)
The Furries

*logs in*

IM #1: "Mr Shang I want to live in ur sims"

You: "ah, we're all full, want me to contact you?"

IM #1: "Yes pls"

IM #2: "Des got some textures I can use for my house?"

You: "Sure, 1 sec" (drops textures)

*random TP request*

You: "Do I know you, miss?"

*silence*

IM #3: "Get my notecard about my new bank?"

You: "I must have, I suppose."

IM #3: "So you are investing?"

You: "No."

IM #4: "Des, Port Caledon is lagging again"

You: "k I'll restart it"

IM #5: "My friend wants to live here"

You: "have your friend contact me pls"

IM #6: "Des! There was a griefer, we froze him, dressed him up and took pics!"

You: "Gah! Why do I always miss the fun things!"

IM #7: "Desmond I have a big problem" (sends tp request)

You: "Sure, what may I do for you?" (takes tp)

*six minutes go by waiting for AFK avatar*

IM #7: "I need you to fix it"

You: "what?"

*four minutes go by waiting for AFK avatar*

IM #7: "My house is busted I need a new 1"

You: "I didn't make your house."

*two minutes go by*

IM #7: "Oh lol nm"

IM #8: "Mr Shang I can help make stuff for Caledon"

You: "I would love that, but we are at prim limits"

IM #8: "Let me show you all my stuff, I am good"

You: "Really, I have only 5 infrastructure prims free in historic Caledon."

IM #8: "You got sims lol u got land"

You: "It doesn't quite work that way"

IM #8: "u suck"

IM #9: "I want to put my sim next to urs"

You: "I'm talking with about five people who want to do that."

IM #9: "mine is a combat mall but I won't tell u, u may rip me off"

You: "If you don't put your sim by me then I can't rip you off, mmm?"

IM #9: "cmon man"

IM #10: "Des some noob left a bunch of junk at the telehub"

You: "I'll get right on it soon as I restart Port Caledon"

IM #11: "Desmond can you come to our meeting it starts in 3 minutes"

You: "Ah, sadly no"

IM #12: "My parcel music isn't changing"

You: "I'll take a look in a minute"

IM #13: "My neighbour's house sucks Desmond take care of it"

You: "plywood texture means unfinished, they are a renowned master builder"

IM #13: "k well I am watching them"

You: "Okay"

IM #14: "I want you to show me all your available lots"

You: "I don't have any at this time sir"

IM #14: "what kind of land baron are you then"

You: "one without parcels, sir"

IM #14: "well I'm going to your competition"

You: "my apologies sir"

IM #15: "Des! come hang out! why are you floating motionless for so long?"

You: "I'd love to, but it's US primetime..."






...meanwhile on forums: "the dictator runs a feudalistic society..."



Consider this the best brief synopsis possible. You can see why I smile a bit.

Sorry Desmond, "Noblesse Oblige". LOL

Hahahahahaah!!!

Now, if only your real life could make you feel so wise, important, and put upon....

And on the original, lost subject - dialogue is never a waste of time, human beings organize, definition is the place to begin discussion.

As an aside - I am bemused by Mr. Shang's plight and applaud his attitude.

Anyways.

The one clear thing that I can see as a common goal, that a user-run government could help address, is handling griefers. People who drop nukes, orbit, spawn seventy-leven copies of $EmbarassingPrim, etcetera. LL is understaffed and doesn't respond fast enough to (many? most?) people's tastes in handling the little munchkins. Land Owners can't always be present. There's a fifty-avatar ban list limit.

LL, doubtless (to my mind) would enjoy the chance to improve their overall workload while not having to pay yet another official staffer, and there's Common Carrier status to think about.

We have the tools. I can see a (very large) group (set) of "NonGriefers" or "ToS Abiding Linizens", w/evar, with all (most?) land set to allow only members of group, all (most?) sales scripts allowing only sales to members of group (I think there is a technical restriction in that the group has to be active on the avatar to test for membership in it?)

The /real/ problem comes from getting everyone to agree to ONE issue that /everyone/ agrees is a problem and that /everyone/ agrees to a definition on and that /everyone/ agrees a user-run government can address and that /everyone/ can understand (simply). Griefing is about as close as comes to that 'ideal'. Everyone already agreed to not do it according to the ToS when they signed up. People know it when they see it.

The solution needs to be one that is:

Transparent
Easily Administered
Hard to Abuse.

That's where the problems begin. We don't really have the ability to make the solution transparent - unless people constantly log movies of what they witness (hah!) or can turn movies-to-disk on quickly, or we get access to the transaction log tools the Lindens have (hah!) or we start to take people at their word (oi vey, I personally take people at their word but when acting in office, any process I fulfill ought not. People lie by omission, exaggeration, ignorance ... all /the freaking time/.).

Easily administered. Yet another problem. Making a simple and clear and comprehensive process that is swift that can be used to clearly state "X person was griefing, they get the chuck" - approaches NP-hard (which is to say, PITA) and often leaves itself open to gaming - "aw, I only rezzed eleventy-jillion - 1 annoying prims, I can't be griefing you. Mom, sam's not touching me! It's peanut butter jelly time." Flash "woot woot" crowds **. W/evar.

Hard To Abuse. OMGoth. "Shaun Abbatoir* accused TeaCup Monolith* of griefing him in IM and harassing his customers over a one-night-stand gone bad, and is demanding that she and all her sales outlets be ejected from "ToSAbidingLinizens" for ten days. TeaCup Monolith just sold her entire empire to CupOTea BicPen*. I wonder who will own it in eleven days' time?"

(Yes, I know. One verified account per person.)

Which brings us back around to the question of self-governance. We can't govern ourselves unless we can govern our selves. How can we self-govern if there is no way to hold the people in government accountable? Checks? Balances? Transparency? Prevention of corruption? Prevention of abuse of yet another system? How does one effect objectivity? Are there people who will/can be SL-employed in effectively running an in-game government? How do we keep the munchkins out of office and retain honest and insightful people to a thankless, highly political, and ultimately low-or-no-pay high-stress function?

*any resemblance to actual SL avatars is purely coincidental.
** Apologies to Messr. Sartre, but Hell is actually being No-TP-stuck in a nightclub where everyone **^^HOOoooWWllllZZ^^** and "Woot Woot"s. My opinion, of course.

[Edited to remove blatant references to favourite SL political philosopher]

And we love you for it, Desmond, and admire your patience.

The concept of an artists' community living together originated in
the 19th Century and was an internationally significant phenomenon of
artistic practice up to the early 20th Century particularly in Europe.
Artists' colonies and villages later transformed themselves into
popular tourist attractions since tourism has come to shape the 20th
Century in far reaching ways.

When we talk of artists in Port Neualtenburg we are, of course, including all manner of content providers. Scripters, Event Hosts, Clothing Designers, Furniture Makers, Architects,
anyone who provides content to SL.

Phase III of The Neualtenburg Projekt, Port Neualtenburg, is just such
a community existing in virtual space. "The Port" is a limited-equity
cooperative located on the main-grid in the Funadama Sim. The Port
provides its members with affordable housing and community facilities
on a nonprofit basis. All proceeds to The Port will go to expansion
of the Community. The Port seeks diversity of all types in its
members and caters especially to artists that are new to Second Life
who seek to start a business with low to no cost to them.

We Own It!
Neualtenburg Projekt members (there are about 25 of us) collectively
own and operate Port Neualtenburg with tier fees managed by the head
of the Artist's Guild. This ownership translates to a lot of freedom,
responsibility and community involvement on the part of group members.

Participation
Port Neualtenburg is a living community because our members are
actively responsible for running the The Port. That means everything
from teaching classes to throwing events. There are 3 levels of
participation in The Projekt. There are no rental or tier fees to pay.

Meisters
Meisters are provided a two story building with an allotment of 250
prims for only a 10% commission of their sales to the (minimum of 250L
per week). They also work for the Port, contributing to its
infrastructure a few hours per month (like in a food Co-Op), contributing
something to the City, such as building a structure, throwing an event,
or teaching a class. Meisters are approved by the Gildemeister, at
which point they move to one of the grand shops on Meisterstrasse.

Journeymen
Journeymen may set up a street wagon vendor in a wide variety of locations
in the Port. There only responsibility is the 10% commission of sales.
No sales, No fee. They have an allotment of 50 prims. Journeymen are
granted their title by the Gildemeister.

Apprentices
Apprentices study under a Meisters with the goal of either becoming
a Journeyman or Meister themselves. Apprentices pay Meisters directly
in the form of their services (not in L$). Apprentices (and Projekt
friends) have no prim allotment.

Anyone may join the group as either an Apprentice or a friend of the Port!
Please contact Kendra Bancroft for invitation into our community.
(messages go direct to my e-mail)
__________________

Desmond, I have to say you handled some of those IMs with far more diplomacy than I could have. LOL I've got my hooves full with only 2 sims, and I haven't spent near the time developing the quality landscaping and structures you have. *bows* Caledon is very impressive!

Traxx. That thing from the Tao was just a description of what seems to be the natural course of events. We start with some remarkable insight or plan and as it gets put into practice it loses its focus and its meaning. If we can stay in touch with the Tao, for example, we don't have to deal with all the systems, like ethics and values, that get created to replace the original insight that has been lost.

The exercise was just a way to start the long road back to the Tao.

This thread is a good summary of material that has been discussed elsewhere around the whole issue of governments. I particularly agree with the comments by Gwyneth:



There are some possible tools that could be provided by LL to enable those who wish to create rule-based communities to organize in that manner.

One that immediately comes to mind is the ability to take action with respect to a person, not just an avatar. LL can link avatars to original members, and if it allowed actions (such as banning) to be applied to a person, then the common problem of someone avoiding the consequences of their actions by creating a new avatar would be prevented.

This might mean that LL would have to go a little further in managing personal information and accounts to effectively make that identification to an indivdual. The current limit on number of avatars could also be reviewed, as there is less and less value in having multiple avatars with the stipend changes that have been made.

Another tool that would allow like minded individuals to form communities would be the ability to pick up and move your land and structures. I don't know offhand how much land is unoccupied, or held by LL, but if the ability was there to take a large chunk of LL land, and for people to swap their land and buildings into that common location, it would promote groups being able to set up and enact their preferred rules. This would get around problems of trying to set up their community in a mixed area where some want to belong and others don't.

There would be some processing required to make that happen, so obviously there would be a fee for it, but technically I don't see any major issues with making that happen.

Another tool that LL could provide would be a secure voting system for individual groups. Once the mechanism was created, it would be self-managing as people agree to join a voting group, the rules for votes (50%, 60% or whatever) are set up, and votes are held based on whatever criteria are required to initiate a vote. This could also be handled as a commercial enterprise (a business running an election software system for fee). People might be more inclined to trust something that LL had created, however.

Elsewhere there has been extensive discussion on dispute resolution (see the Law Society threads) or the advantages of a more group-oriented ownership structure, so I won't repeat those.