Wagering prohibition - what do you think?
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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07-25-2007 18:49
How do folks feel about the prohibition on wagering described in blog post http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/07/25/wagering-in-second-life-new-policy/From: someone Policy
It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life (R) environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
This includes (but is not limited to), for example, Casino Games such as:
o Baccarat
o Blackjack
o Craps
o Faro
o Keno
o Pachinko
o Pai Gow
o Poker
o Roulette
o Sic Bo
o Slot machines
It also includes Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange.
Linden Lab will actively enforce this policy. If we discover gambling activities that violate the policy, we will remove all related objects from the inworld environment, may suspend or terminate the accounts of residents involved without refund or payment, and may report any relevant details, including user information, to authorities and financial institutions.
Wagering Games FAQ
1. Does this policy mean that all simulated gambling in Second Life(R) is illegal? Have I broken the law by gambling in Second Life? Can there be any retroactive consequences?
Linden Lab’s policy is not intended to identify which gambling activities may be legal where you live, and we cannot provide legal advice to you. Because gambling activities may be controlled by the law where the bettor lives in some places, and in others affect the operators of wagering games, we have decided to take a broader approach by prohibiting all games that meet the criteria in our policy.
It has been a basic tenet of Second Life that all Residents are legally responsible for their own activities and for complying with the laws of the local jurisdiction in which they reside. If you are violating our policy, or if you are otherwise concerned that you may be engaging in illegal gambling, you should stop.
2. Is this a blanket ban — i.e. is this simply a ban on simulated casinos or all types of gambling?
The wagering games described in the policy will not be allowed in Second Life. It applies to objects and games whether or not they are in a building that you may call an inworld “casino.”
3. What kind of wagering games are affected?
The policy applies to gambling games which:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
4. Does the policy apply to all games based on real-life sports activities?
The policy prohibits Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange. However, the policy does not prohibit “fantasy sports” leagues if the rules and operation of those games comply with all applicable laws.
5. Does this policy apply to “skill contests?”
This policy only applies to wagering games that meet the criteria listed above. If your game or contest does not meet the above criteria, it is not restricted under this policy, but applicable laws and local practice may impose additional requirements on you. This policy does not give you guidance on what your legal obligations are – as noted above, that is your responsibility to determine.
6. How will you enforce this measure? How can you detect these games?
Our staff will review, investigate and respond to appropriate notices. We may retain additional staff or services to conduct this activity. When we discover objects or games within Second Life that meet the policy’s definition, we will remove them from Second Life.
7. What will the consequences be for those who continue to play or operate games that fall under this policy?
Any user who consistently violates the policy or our Terms of Service will be suspended, and may be terminated. Linden Lab may also comply with validly issued subpoenas in connection with law enforcement investigations and legal actions.
8. I live somewhere where online gambling is not illegal. Does this policy apply to me?
This policy applies to all use of Second Life. It isn’t intended to describe what is or isn’t legal for any particular resident or in any particular place. It describes what Linden Lab believes is appropriate to maintain its business requirements and to operate Second Life.
9. Will this take effect immediately? How will it work procedurally to shut down? Will there be reimbursement involved for virtual casino owners?
* It will take effect immediately.
* Second Life Residents are responsible for their own behavior and compliance with the policy.
* There will be no reimbursement if Linden Lab removes objects or activities that violate this policy.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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RobbyRacoon Olmstead
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Join date: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,821
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07-25-2007 18:54
I'd say that many people are already saying what they think on this other thread : /327/b0/199826/1.htmlPersonally, I won't miss casinos (or Kasinos, or whatever) even a little bit, but I am very interested in how this is all going to play out. . |
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Bobo Decosta
Registered User
Join date: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
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07-25-2007 18:57
It's the end of SL that's what i'm saying! Like RL press already warns to stay away from SL so will I. What can is say to people interested in playing SL? "hey it's fun for knitting and crochet, all other things will become illegal eventually"?
It just doesn't make sense to pass one RL law and not to issue all the other laws.
Prostitution is illegal in the states, gay marriage is illegal in the US. Is there a side from owning guns and rifles something legal in the US? Not much so why would we even encourage to play a game where can't play a game!
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Object Pascale
moshi moshi
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 648
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07-25-2007 19:12
From: Bobo Decosta It's the end of SL that's what i'm saying! Really? I'd love to get worked up with the best of them, but this isn't like the island price hike last November, or the badly handled ID issue a few months back...or even voice integration. From: Bobo Decosta
It just doesn't make sense to pass one RL law and not to issue all the other laws.
Prostitution is illegal in the states,
Prostitution doesn't REALLY occur in SL. Virtual currency may be exchanged but nobody REALLY has sex. Two people can't have sex if they're not in the same room/building/town/city/country/continent*. (*Delete as applicable.) From: Bobo Decosta gay marriage is illegal in the US. People don't REALLY get married in SL. They just role-play marriage. That is perfectly legal. From: Bobo Decosta Is there a side from owning guns and rifles something legal in the US? Nor do they own REAL guns in SL. Real guns injure, maim and kill real people. VIRTUAL guns do nothing of the sort. With regards to a SL casino however, you buy Lindens (tokens?) with your credit card. You visit casino. You place wager on a game. Game is executed. You win or lose. You can convert your winnings to cash. That's pretty much how a real casino works. If it's against the law in Linden Lab's jurisdiction, then I'm not sure what else they can do. |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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07-25-2007 19:17
Well first of all I think it's an absolutely disgusting way to announce it. I think Robin Linden is great but to just announce, it's banned now, is completely, utterly and totally dispicable.
It's a complete slap in the face for customers, this hasn't just happened, they've been talking about this for months. Casino owners will have paid tier this month or be about to get billed, they should have had at least month's notice this was happening, it's an awful way to treat your customers.
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hope Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 155
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07-25-2007 19:22
From: Ciaran Laval Well first of all I think it's an absolutely disgusting way to announce it. I think Robin Linden is great but to just announce, it's banned now, is completely, utterly and totally dispicable.
It's a complete slap in the face for customers, this hasn't just happened, they've been talking about this for months. Casino owners will have paid tier this month or be about to get billed, they should have had at least month's notice this was happening, it's an awful way to treat your customers. and this tactic -surprises- you? They've been doing it for the past 6 months. Hey, at least we should be glad they didnt announce it on a Friday? |
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Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
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07-25-2007 21:00
Given the ingenuity of the SL user base, I'm sure within time, someone will have found a way around it.
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Cryptic Slade
Registered User
Join date: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 13
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07-26-2007 00:27
From: Object Pascale
Prostitution doesn't REALLY occur in SL. Virtual currency may be exchanged but nobody REALLY has sex. Two people can't have sex if they're not in the same room/building/town/city/country/continent*. (*Delete as applicable.)
People don't REALLY get married in SL. They just role-play marriage. That is perfectly legal.
Nor do they own REAL guns in SL. Real guns injure, maim and kill real people. VIRTUAL guns do nothing of the sort.
And when people ageplay in SL they don't REALLY abuse a child, still it is illegal. |
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Object Pascale
moshi moshi
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 648
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07-26-2007 00:36
From: Cryptic Slade And when people ageplay in SL they don't REALLY abuse a child, still it is illegal. Yes, it is still illegal to simulate child sex under some jurisdictions in the real world. Pretend prostitution, pretend gay marriage, pretend gun ownership -- is not. |
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Cryptic Slade
Registered User
Join date: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 13
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07-26-2007 00:41
From: Object Pascale Yes, it is still illegal to simulate child sex under some jurisdictions in the real world.
Pretend prostitution, pretend gay marriage, pretend gun ownership -- is not. Are you sure it isn't? I could mention some countries that I believe wouldn't accept pretend prostitution, gay marriage, etc... like Iran or China... Slippery slope... just hope they move everything to Russia or something |
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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07-26-2007 01:17
From: Cryptic Slade Are you sure it isn't? I could mention some countries that I believe wouldn't accept pretend prostitution, gay marriage, etc... like Iran or China... I don't think any country has much reach other than to prohibit LL from doing business within its borders. There's a big difference in defending resisting or complying to the public though. Can you really think of a way to sell not complying with banning depictions of adult/minor sex even if it's perfectly legal in the US? The media would eat them alive and declare SL pedo-heaven while airing some recorded material like the German show did. On the other hand, refusing to censor material at the demand of another country (say China) would be heralded as protecting freedom of speech/expression, or be a non-issue. |
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Cryptic Slade
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Join date: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 13
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07-26-2007 01:22
From: Kitty Barnett On the other hand, refusing to censor material at the demand of another country (say China) would be heralded as protecting freedom of speech/expression, or be a non-issue. There is a limit of how much they can ban before "free speech" is just a buzzword. As Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."... I support a Second Life free of regional laws, not one that tries to please every nation. I've said it a couple of times before, and I'll say it again... what will be the next they ban? thats the whole reason I don't really put much time in SL anymore, the uncertainty of what comes next, whether its the software or the ingame rules. |
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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07-26-2007 05:39
From: Object Pascale Two people can't have sex if they're not in the same room/building/town/city/country/continent*. One person could be in Minneapolis and the other person could be in St. Paul.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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07-26-2007 05:41
From: RobbyRacoon Olmstead I'd say that many people are already saying what they think on this other thread : /327/b0/199826/1.html. I figured it wouldn't actually hurt anything to have a thread on the subject in the correct forum.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan
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Object Pascale
moshi moshi
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 648
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07-26-2007 05:45
From: SuezanneC Baskerville One person could be in Minneapolis and the other person could be in St. Paul. Argh, I had to get a map to work that one out...but it was worth it.  |
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Cougar Kidd
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1
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07-26-2007 05:46
From: Object Pascale With regards to a SL casino however, you buy Lindens (tokens?) with your credit card. You visit casino. You place wager on a game. Game is executed. You win or lose. You can convert your winnings to cash. That's pretty much how a real casino works. If it's against the law in Linden Lab's jurisdiction, then I'm not sure what else they can do. What about creating stuff ingame? I buy Lindens with my credit card, I make a house, piece of cloth, jewellry etc. I sell randomly to anyone that likes it and I get a profit from it. Should I pay US government taxes when I live in Europe? This is just sick and will kill the game since many played the game because of the gambling part. Way to go US... Police the world as you know so good! |
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Gareth Qunhua
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Join date: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 25
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07-26-2007 06:48
From: Cougar Kidd What about creating stuff ingame? I buy Lindens with my credit card, I make a house, piece of cloth, jewellry etc. I sell randomly to anyone that likes it and I get a profit from it. Should I pay US government taxes when I live in Europe? This is just sick and will kill the game since many played the game because of the gambling part.
Way to go US... Police the world as you know so good! this whole fiasco makes me think of a quote from Team America World Police which is "America F*** Yeah" :/ |
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Felix Duesenburg
Taken over by Aliens
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 30
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07-26-2007 07:26
Ok, first of all this is not the Lindens' fault. They're a US company and if they don't do what the US government tells them to do there won't be a Second Life for anyone anymore.
This is the fault of all those who allow this to happen in the first place! US citizens who are too loath to tell their government where to shove all this nonsense. Where is democracy when you need it? Oh, maybe this is in line with the majority opinion... well then there's apparently nothing a freedom loving minority can do about it, is there? Where's the sense of freedom and tolerance? If you don't like what someone does, then you are not forced to stay on their premises. Oh it does still bother you? Are you one of those who keep saying "I want gambling to go away", 'I want escorts to go away", and this and that? Why don't you move to Saudi Arabia... I'm sure your moral values are well served there.
The only way to get over this sh*t and regain freedom is the OPEN SOURCE SL SERVER. Once anyone can run a server in a jurisdiction of their choice, any single government will lose its power over it and such ill-conceived measures would be simply futile. Unless they build a "great firewall" like China did. Is America heading that way, too?
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Vannesh Cannoli
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Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
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07-26-2007 08:11
From: Cryptic Slade There is a limit of how much they can ban before "free speech" is just a buzzword. As Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."... I support a Second Life free of regional laws, not one that tries to please every nation. "Free-speech" doesn't exist as a "right" in SL. We are using LL's servers, and they have the ability to dictate how those servers are used. If they decided that every time we typed in a sentence in chat all that came out is "I love Big Brother," there's not a thing that could be done about that. We'd all leave, they'd go out of business, but that would be the extent of the "rebellion" against this perceived injustice. That said, this wagering "ban" is just smoke and mirrors, like the whole "broadly offensive" thing a couple months back. What everyone has to understand is this: Linden Labs wants to make money. That's what SL is all about, folks, making money. This isn't altruism, this isn't about providing a community service to help people feel better about their lives. This is a profit-based enterprise, so whatever helps them make more money is good for LL, whatever could hurt profit is bad. They have decided that gambling could hurt their profits by having law enforcement agents in and out of the United States get on their buttoxes about online wagering. As this could hurt profits, they have "cut" it. Does this mean that a "Linden KGB" is going to be going from sim to sim to pull the plug on casinos? No. If it just so happens that a Linden sees a game machine in a club or comes across machines in a casino, that Linden might return "banned" items, but they aren't going to take the time to go en masse to close casinos. This is to cover those potentially uncovered buttoxes I just mentioned. Say someone is running a casino game, and the FBI or some other law enforcement agency goes to LL and says "Hey! You have gambling in -such and such- sim going on!" LL can reply "No, that is against our terms of service. This user decided to break our terms of service. It is so difficult with the size of SL, and with all the endless hours we put in making SL better for our subscribers, to keep up with all these devilish TOS breakers. Thank you for pointing out said breaker-of-terms-of-service, we are banning that person right now and getting rid of those nasty machines." Remember that dragging in copyrighted textures is against the terms of service, but how many people get busted for that? Ageplay and "broadly offensive" behavior is also banned, but how many people get busted for that? Occasionally they'll bust a person or two in order to "show they mean business," but beyond that, it's all smoke and mirrors. All it is doing is protecting LL by making sure that people "know" what is against their terms of service. If people stop thinking of LL as some altruist charity group working for the betterment of their online community, and start seeing it for what it is -- a for-profit group making boatloads of money for themselves and their investors -- more people would understand why they say and do some of the things they say and do. It's sound business sense. Your f'ing bluebird of happiness and social gadfly, Vanni |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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07-26-2007 08:14
From: Bobo Decosta Prostitution is illegal in the states, gay marriage is illegal in the US. I think you're confusing state laws and federal laws. Both of these things, while not legal in most of the US, are legal in some places. For escorts, /me sees it as no different than phone sex.
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
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07-26-2007 21:53
From: Meade Paravane I think you're confusing state laws and federal laws. Both of these things, while not legal in most of the US, are legal in some places.
For escorts, /me sees it as no different than phone sex. Correct. And I think it adds an additional dynamic. Here in the States , federal law sets certain standards, but the individual states are allowed to legislate beyond as well. Prostiution is not illegal in the US per se, it's just that 99.95 of the States in the US do not allow it. Gay marriage is similar, some states do allow it, or at the very least allow Domestic Parterniships.
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Kilar Koba
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Join date: 6 Jul 2007
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How do I sell my L$
07-26-2007 22:10
I only started a month ago, but it looks to me like SL will be very boring now.
I did not use slots or casinos, but I did enjoy Sploders in the clubs. The occasional Raffle, I won two allready, and Slingo's.
Now all I will be able to do is camp 24/7, Not a very exciting life.
So I say bye SL for now.
I will keep my account, will just not play much.
My problem is that the site does not seem to want to let me sell my Lindens back.
I have a $46 US limit daily to Buy L$, and a zero limit in selling L$ back. Whats up with that. I was hoping to sell my L$ before the bottom dropped out.
It's only about $25 US but thats money I can use to play another game.
What is the policy for being able to sell L$ back. I cant seem to find answer anywhere else
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Kilar Koba
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jul 2007
Posts: 5
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Best Idea yet
07-26-2007 22:20
"The only way to get over this sh*t and regain freedom is the OPEN SOURCE SL SERVER. Once anyone can run a server in a jurisdiction of their choice, any single government will lose its power over it and such ill-conceived measures would be simply futile. Unless they build a "great firewall" like China did. Is America heading that way, too?[/QUOTE]"
SL is majority user created anyway, I agree. Open Source it. It would only get better. Look at Linux or tons of other great Open Source software.
I'm sure a great knock off of SL, in another country is not far away.
I'm American, but I really do get sick of some of our stupid attitudes. No wonder half the world hates us.
Hey guys, were not all bad. Its the damn government, not us poor citizens
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Strayn Janus
Registered User
Join date: 2 May 2007
Posts: 3
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Loophole?
07-26-2007 22:33
From: Tod69 Talamasca Given the ingenuity of the SL user base, I'm sure within time, someone will have found a way around it. Quite possibly. At least, to protect LL themselves. Let me state firstly, IANAL. No training in this stuff, just like finding things out. I found the text of the SAFE Ports Act which has stirred up this putrid cauldron of problems. Concentrate, here's the science bit... Step 1: Look up Section 802, Subchapter IV, section 5362, paragraph 2. It states that an organisation cannot be in the business of conducting illegal internet gambling if it is an "interactive computer service". Step 2: Look that term up in 47 USC 230 (f) (as referenced) We find it to be a system that "provides or enables access by multiple users to a computer server". Step 3: Profit? Now, doesn't that sound awfully like the kind of equipment that LL posess? I would think that LL is actually exempt from the legislation by the virtue of this "loophole". They may find themselves in a position where they have to block all financial transactions for some of their users should a case be proven of illegal gambling, however, they should still be able to continue quite happily taking money from subscribers and through lindex. Any actual lawyers around want to check this for me? |
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
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07-26-2007 22:37
Please spare the oppressed self pity whine. A few moths ago, during the ageplay debate, mot the kiddie porn saga, we were told by many that SL is a Global thing and that laws of all user countries could be taken into account. Even though the behavior was not necessarily against US law. Well this is another one of those times, the shoe is on the other foot. You may not like it, I may not like it. too bad. the world will not end because we can't gamble in SL.
More than Ageplay, this is a matter that concerns MONEY. LL is in business to make MONEY. Anything that threatens that is going to be dealt with. The SL sum will still rise every 4 hours (or whatever it is)
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