Second Life Forums Archive - Liability?

Alyx Sands

Mental Mentor Linguist

Join date: 17 Feb 2007

Posts: 2,432

08-09-2007 06:41

From: Object Pascale

Ha, and it's just dropped to $L1000/US$4.05. Both on Buy Currency dialog AND the Lindex.

Object, I think they don't WANT to understand...so I'll try again:

From: someone

The LindeX is a Linden Dollar exchange offering residents of Second Life the ability to either buy or sell Linden Dollars.
...
LindeX will automatically match your order with the best exchange rate based on the number of Linden Dollars you wish to buy. If instead you enter the amount of US Dollars you want to spend the approximate number of L$ to purchase will be calculated automatically. The quoted exchange rate includes transaction fees.
...
You may also make Limit Buy offers. Specify the amount of Linden Dollars AND the MINIMUM exchange rate you are willing to accept. LindeX will automatically match up sell offers as they come in. You must have sufficient US$ credit on your Second Life account to completely pay for the buy order.
...
Buy orders may be partially filled: Your Linden Dollars might be purchased from multiple sellers, and not all at the same time. Your buy order will remain open until it is completed or you cancel the order.

Just quoting the LindEx page...has anyone actually READ these? I think the transaction fee is what Linden Lab gets, but nothing else.

Eidt: I've seen Oracle databases losing stuff too, and I'm talking huge dbs belonging to my workplace (university)....

Calliope Simon

Registered User

Join date: 21 May 2006

Posts: 154

08-09-2007 06:42

From: Object Pascale

Interesting.

You were wrong about the Lindex. So you chose not to dispute that.
You were wrong about the Stipends. So you chose not to dispute that.
And you are now spouting chapter on verse on Sybase and Oracle, providing no evidence whatsoever beyond the classic: "I worked for/so I know more about you than that".

Rather than insult you with childish words, I'll let people make their own minds up about the projection contained within your final sentence.

I'd put my computer experience and a thousand REAL dollars up against yours any minute of any day, friend.

Object Pascale

moshi moshi

Join date: 27 Jan 2007

Posts: 648

08-09-2007 06:58

From: Calliope Simon

I'd put my computer experience and a thousand REAL dollars up against yours any minute of any day, friend.

LOL. You are teh funneh.

From: Alyx Sands

Just quoting the LindEx page...has anyone actually READ these? I think the transaction fee is what Linden Lab gets, but nothing else.

Eidt: I've seen Oracle databases losing stuff too, and I'm talking huge dbs belonging to my workplace (university)....

Heh! They should've read "Preventing Corruption Before it's Too Late" by Marin Komadina.

http://www.dbasupport.com/oracle/ora9i/prevent_corruption1_1.shtml

From: someone

"Every DBA has a personal horror story about Oracle database corruption. A few DBAs, those that never taste this experience are missing the most challenging part of the DBA profession.

Those mind-jarring calls in the middle of the night to come and repair a database problem only to discover upon arrival that the last good backups was made 3 days ago, hardware has error and above all the project manager is screaming from his warm bed: " The database must be recovered by tomorrow morning!"

Have you ever experienced this? Well, if not, you don't know what you are missing.

Luckily, database corruptions are very rare, but when they happen, they can have a catastrophic effect on the whole company's business."

But I digress even further from the main point, which was that LL are hardly going to turn a net profit from inventory corruption. Gosh that conversation feels like a distant dream.

_____________________

"Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.

hope Antonelli

Registered User

Join date: 14 Apr 2006

Posts: 155

08-09-2007 10:04

http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/08/03/deficits-money-supply-and-the-second-life-business-cycle/

LL -does- in fact print its own money as needed (or on a whim for all that matters). A very interesting article here on the future of the SL economy though.

Bimbo Princess

Registered User

Join date: 18 Oct 2006

Posts: 14

08-09-2007 10:55

From: Calliope Simon

Here's the fact:

Database corruption is exceedingly rare when the database software itself is appropriate for the application, and is run by people who know what they're doing. And even when it does happen...it NEVER RESULTS IN LOST DATA, EVER, IF THE DATABASE ADMINISTRATORS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, PERIOD.

TRUE, there is no reason for ever missing a single peice of Data.
And thats all your L$, clothing, hair, sexbeds, cars, houses and even your skin and eyes are....Data.....
For those sitting here saying LL don't make REAL Money from L$, I can only assume you have never withdrawn L$ to real usd$$$$ and pay no notice to that small fee when you buy L$.

Object Pascale

moshi moshi

Join date: 27 Jan 2007

Posts: 648

08-09-2007 11:16

From: Bimbo Princess

TRUE, there is no reason for ever missing a single peice of Data.
And thats all your L$, clothing, hair, sexbeds, cars, houses and even your skin and eyes are....Data.....
For those sitting here saying LL don't make REAL Money from L$, I can only assume you have never withdrawn L$ to real usd$$$$ and pay no notice to that small fee when you buy L$.

Nobody said that Bimbo. Somewhere during the point being made that "It's hard to see how Linden Lab makes a net profit when inventory loss occurs," it was categorically stated by the OP that every single $L in circulation was purchased from LL. That is absolutely not the case at all. I did point out exceptions to the rule, like Supply Linden selling $Ls to keep the exchange rate steady last year (so hope does indeed have a point), but unfortunately the original point was lost in the mire of Calliopes career and various other irrelevant specifics.

_____________________

"Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.

Seraph Nephilim

and the angels will weep

Join date: 28 Jan 2006

Posts: 255

08-09-2007 12:50

From: Object Pascale

Having said that, Supply Linden exists to keep a lid on L$ value, but the last time he sold Lindens was October 2006 if i recall correctly.

Quite incorrect. From http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php

Supply Linden Sales:
159,074,702 July 2007
015,000,000 2007 August - MTD [zero padding to align numbers]

This was trivially easy to find. Sales of Linden Dollars are one of the three top sources of income for LL.

PS: TORLEY! You said that BBCode would be re-enabled by July! It's August now -- what's going on?

hope Antonelli

Registered User

Join date: 14 Apr 2006

Posts: 155

08-09-2007 17:26

From: Seraph Nephilim

Quite incorrect. From http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php

Supply Linden Sales:
159,074,702 July 2007
015,000,000 2007 August - MTD [zero padding to align numbers]

This was trivially easy to find. Sales of Linden Dollars are one of the three top sources of income for LL.

PS: TORLEY! You said that BBCode would be re-enabled by July! It's August now -- what's going on?

Interesting to note..we're already 1/3(almost) of the way into August and the L sales havent even hit 10% of last months. Wonder how thats going to play out as the rest of the month goes on....

Nack Barnes

Bartender Man

Join date: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 66

08-09-2007 23:10

When I purchase L$ my credit card shows that I paid Linden Labs real cashy money and I received Linden Dollars for it, in Second Life.

I don't give a rats ass what disclaimers are all over the website concerning the LindeX. The simple fact is I'm paying Linden Labs, not Bob Schmook in the U.K.

_____________________

Nack Barnes
:: Firefly's at Blackburne Downport ::

Object Pascale

moshi moshi

Join date: 27 Jan 2007

Posts: 648

08-09-2007 23:18

From: Nack Barnes

I don't give a rats ass what disclaimers are all over the website concerning the LindeX. The simple fact is I'm paying Linden Labs, not Bob Schmook in the U.K.

Uh. Disclaimers? Regardless of who you're paying, LL is the middleman facilitating the transaction. Your Lindens are sourced from another user. End of.

_____________________

"Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.

Nack Barnes

Bartender Man

Join date: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 66

08-09-2007 23:39

My payment is to Linden Labs, de facto, they are selling me L$ for $.

This isn't complicated, everyone who clicks that little blue L$ button knows they are buying L$ from Linden Labs for $. Except you and a few others who wish to perpetuate the myth of L$ coming as gifts from the happy Linden Fairy. *shakes his head*

Linden Labs is the source of 100% of all L$. No different than chips in a casino. The casino CAN say they are merely the middleman, selling one customer's chips to another, "facillitating" the transfer, but you and I and everyone else knows that's bull.

_____________________

Nack Barnes
:: Firefly's at Blackburne Downport ::

Draco18s Majestic

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 2,744

08-10-2007 09:12

From: Nack Barnes

My payment is to Linden Labs, de facto, they are selling me L$ for $.

This isn't complicated, everyone who clicks that little blue L$ button knows they are buying L$ from Linden Labs for $. Except you and a few others who wish to perpetuate the myth of L$ coming as gifts from the happy Linden Fairy. *shakes his head*

Linden Labs is the source of 100% of all L$. No different than chips in a casino. The casino CAN say they are merely the middleman, selling one customer's chips to another, "facillitating" the transfer, but you and I and everyone else knows that's bull.

Oh, so you buy things from eBay and eBay buys items from you.

PayPal also likewise "manufacutres" money that goes strait into your bank account.

Parsimony Paragon

SL Post-Anarchist, I Hope

Join date: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 195

Getting Off Topic

08-10-2007 09:38

It is irrelevant where the Linden$ come from, the question is, who is liable for loss of inventory objects, if anyone.

Using the casino chips analogy...It does not matter, in the casino, who made the poker chips, or whether you found them on the floor, got them from another poker player, bought them at the table or at the cashier window. All that matters is that when the house misdeals, they MUST return chips on the betting line to you, period! The player is not responsible for the faux pas, and is not liable for having the bad judgement to sit in front of an incompetent dealer.

...and as for the whole concept of what PayPal and eBay do, versus what LL is doing, there is one tremendous difference...PP and eB are NOT *roleplaying* at completing your transactions...they have a financial and fiduciary responsibility to protect your items and your electronic funds, and they do a pretty reputable job of honoring that philosophy (yeh, I know, nothing is perfect)...they are not *roleplaying* at being a company, nor do they view your money as "virtual" simply because it left the real world of your wallet and became electronically theirs, just for the moment while the transaction was occurring...can you honestly say that LL feels ANY burden of responsibility to protect anything not directly related to their own bottom line?

Liability?
Alyx Sands Mental Mentor Linguist Join date: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 2,432	08-09-2007 06:41 From: Object Pascale Ha, and it's just dropped to $L1000/US$4.05. Both on Buy Currency dialog AND the Lindex. Object, I think they don't WANT to understand...so I'll try again: From: someone The LindeX is a Linden Dollar exchange offering residents of Second Life the ability to either buy or sell Linden Dollars. ... LindeX will automatically match your order with the best exchange rate based on the number of Linden Dollars you wish to buy. If instead you enter the amount of US Dollars you want to spend the approximate number of L$ to purchase will be calculated automatically. The quoted exchange rate includes transaction fees. ... You may also make Limit Buy offers. Specify the amount of Linden Dollars AND the MINIMUM exchange rate you are willing to accept. LindeX will automatically match up sell offers as they come in. You must have sufficient US$ credit on your Second Life account to completely pay for the buy order. ... Buy orders may be partially filled: Your Linden Dollars might be purchased from multiple sellers, and not all at the same time. Your buy order will remain open until it is completed or you cancel the order. Just quoting the LindEx page...has anyone actually READ these? I think the transaction fee is what Linden Lab gets, but nothing else. Eidt: I've seen Oracle databases losing stuff too, and I'm talking huge dbs belonging to my workplace (university)....
Calliope Simon Registered User Join date: 21 May 2006 Posts: 154	08-09-2007 06:42 From: Object Pascale Interesting. You were wrong about the Lindex. So you chose not to dispute that. You were wrong about the Stipends. So you chose not to dispute that. And you are now spouting chapter on verse on Sybase and Oracle, providing no evidence whatsoever beyond the classic: "I worked for/so I know more about you than that". Rather than insult you with childish words, I'll let people make their own minds up about the projection contained within your final sentence. I'd put my computer experience and a thousand REAL dollars up against yours any minute of any day, friend.
Object Pascale moshi moshi Join date: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 648	08-09-2007 06:58 From: Calliope Simon I'd put my computer experience and a thousand REAL dollars up against yours any minute of any day, friend. LOL. You are teh funneh. From: Alyx Sands Just quoting the LindEx page...has anyone actually READ these? I think the transaction fee is what Linden Lab gets, but nothing else. Eidt: I've seen Oracle databases losing stuff too, and I'm talking huge dbs belonging to my workplace (university).... Heh! They should've read "Preventing Corruption Before it's Too Late" by Marin Komadina. http://www.dbasupport.com/oracle/ora9i/prevent_corruption1_1.shtml From: someone "Every DBA has a personal horror story about Oracle database corruption. A few DBAs, those that never taste this experience are missing the most challenging part of the DBA profession. Those mind-jarring calls in the middle of the night to come and repair a database problem only to discover upon arrival that the last good backups was made 3 days ago, hardware has error and above all the project manager is screaming from his warm bed: " The database must be recovered by tomorrow morning!" Have you ever experienced this? Well, if not, you don't know what you are missing. Luckily, database corruptions are very rare, but when they happen, they can have a catastrophic effect on the whole company's business." But I digress even further from the main point, which was that LL are hardly going to turn a net profit from inventory corruption. Gosh that conversation feels like a distant dream. _____________________ "Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.
hope Antonelli Registered User Join date: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 155	08-09-2007 10:04 http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/08/03/deficits-money-supply-and-the-second-life-business-cycle/ LL -does- in fact print its own money as needed (or on a whim for all that matters). A very interesting article here on the future of the SL economy though.
Bimbo Princess Registered User Join date: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 14	08-09-2007 10:55 From: Calliope Simon Here's the fact: Database corruption is exceedingly rare when the database software itself is appropriate for the application, and is run by people who know what they're doing. And even when it does happen...it NEVER RESULTS IN LOST DATA, EVER, IF THE DATABASE ADMINISTRATORS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, PERIOD. TRUE, there is no reason for ever missing a single peice of Data. And thats all your L$, clothing, hair, sexbeds, cars, houses and even your skin and eyes are....Data..... For those sitting here saying LL don't make REAL Money from L$, I can only assume you have never withdrawn L$ to real usd$$$$ and pay no notice to that small fee when you buy L$.
Object Pascale moshi moshi Join date: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 648	08-09-2007 11:16 From: Bimbo Princess TRUE, there is no reason for ever missing a single peice of Data. And thats all your L$, clothing, hair, sexbeds, cars, houses and even your skin and eyes are....Data..... For those sitting here saying LL don't make REAL Money from L$, I can only assume you have never withdrawn L$ to real usd$$$$ and pay no notice to that small fee when you buy L$. Nobody said that Bimbo. Somewhere during the point being made that "It's hard to see how Linden Lab makes a net profit when inventory loss occurs," it was categorically stated by the OP that every single $L in circulation was purchased from LL. That is absolutely not the case at all. I did point out exceptions to the rule, like Supply Linden selling $Ls to keep the exchange rate steady last year (so hope does indeed have a point), but unfortunately the original point was lost in the mire of Calliopes career and various other irrelevant specifics. _____________________ "Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.
Seraph Nephilim and the angels will weep Join date: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 255	08-09-2007 12:50 From: Object Pascale Having said that, Supply Linden exists to keep a lid on L$ value, but the last time he sold Lindens was October 2006 if i recall correctly. Quite incorrect. From http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php Supply Linden Sales: 159,074,702 July 2007 015,000,000 2007 August - MTD [zero padding to align numbers] This was trivially easy to find. Sales of Linden Dollars are one of the three top sources of income for LL. PS: TORLEY! You said that BBCode would be re-enabled by July! It's August now -- what's going on?
hope Antonelli Registered User Join date: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 155	08-09-2007 17:26 From: Seraph Nephilim Quite incorrect. From http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php Supply Linden Sales: 159,074,702 July 2007 015,000,000 2007 August - MTD [zero padding to align numbers] This was trivially easy to find. Sales of Linden Dollars are one of the three top sources of income for LL. PS: TORLEY! You said that BBCode would be re-enabled by July! It's August now -- what's going on? Interesting to note..we're already 1/3(almost) of the way into August and the L sales havent even hit 10% of last months. Wonder how thats going to play out as the rest of the month goes on....
Nack Barnes Bartender Man Join date: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 66	08-09-2007 23:10 When I purchase L$ my credit card shows that I paid Linden Labs real cashy money and I received Linden Dollars for it, in Second Life. I don't give a rats ass what disclaimers are all over the website concerning the LindeX. The simple fact is I'm paying Linden Labs, not Bob Schmook in the U.K. _____________________ Nack Barnes :: Firefly's at Blackburne Downport ::
Object Pascale moshi moshi Join date: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 648	08-09-2007 23:18 From: Nack Barnes I don't give a rats ass what disclaimers are all over the website concerning the LindeX. The simple fact is I'm paying Linden Labs, not Bob Schmook in the U.K. Uh. Disclaimers? Regardless of who you're paying, LL is the middleman facilitating the transaction. Your Lindens are sourced from another user. End of. _____________________ "Life is a game, play it." -- Mother Teresa.
Nack Barnes Bartender Man Join date: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 66	08-09-2007 23:39 My payment is to Linden Labs, de facto, they are selling me L$ for $. This isn't complicated, everyone who clicks that little blue L$ button knows they are buying L$ from Linden Labs for $. Except you and a few others who wish to perpetuate the myth of L$ coming as gifts from the happy Linden Fairy. shakes his head Linden Labs is the source of 100% of all L$. No different than chips in a casino. The casino CAN say they are merely the middleman, selling one customer's chips to another, "facillitating" the transfer, but you and I and everyone else knows that's bull. _____________________ Nack Barnes :: Firefly's at Blackburne Downport ::
Draco18s Majestic Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 2,744	08-10-2007 09:12 From: Nack Barnes My payment is to Linden Labs, de facto, they are selling me L$ for $. This isn't complicated, everyone who clicks that little blue L$ button knows they are buying L$ from Linden Labs for $. Except you and a few others who wish to perpetuate the myth of L$ coming as gifts from the happy Linden Fairy. shakes his head Linden Labs is the source of 100% of all L$. No different than chips in a casino. The casino CAN say they are merely the middleman, selling one customer's chips to another, "facillitating" the transfer, but you and I and everyone else knows that's bull. Oh, so you buy things from eBay and eBay buys items from you. PayPal also likewise "manufacutres" money that goes strait into your bank account.
Parsimony Paragon SL Post-Anarchist, I Hope Join date: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 195	Getting Off Topic 08-10-2007 09:38 It is irrelevant where the Linden$ come from, the question is, who is liable for loss of inventory objects, if anyone. Using the casino chips analogy...It does not matter, in the casino, who made the poker chips, or whether you found them on the floor, got them from another poker player, bought them at the table or at the cashier window. All that matters is that when the house misdeals, they MUST return chips on the betting line to you, period! The player is not responsible for the faux pas, and is not liable for having the bad judgement to sit in front of an incompetent dealer. ...and as for the whole concept of what PayPal and eBay do, versus what LL is doing, there is one tremendous difference...PP and eB are NOT roleplaying at completing your transactions...they have a financial and fiduciary responsibility to protect your items and your electronic funds, and they do a pretty reputable job of honoring that philosophy (yeh, I know, nothing is perfect)...they are not roleplaying at being a company, nor do they view your money as "virtual" simply because it left the real world of your wallet and became electronically theirs, just for the moment while the transaction was occurring...can you honestly say that LL feels ANY burden of responsibility to protect anything not directly related to their own bottom line?

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Liability?