keep wireframe alive!

So, the lindens accidentally enabled "wireframe mode" in preview. Basically it lets you see the wire mesh of all the polygons on the map. It looks really cool, in a fairly geeky sort of way.

ALT-R = wireframe mode.

Anyways, it wasn't supposed to be allowed in the general client, it's for lindens only. But, I'm so enamored with this accidental feature, I want it to be put into the debug menu.

So... who's with me?

What is the harm in leaving it? Other than that yes, please leave it. I'm with the Lord on this one

Endorsed
*stamp*

stamp stamp stamp

Yes please! This would be hugely helpful for recreating builds in other apps for texture baking. Please let it stay!

sign me up!

Won't happen.

And likely it won't even be in the next preview release.

Talked to Philip about this a while back. The main reasons are for privacy. I brought up the same points with him that many others did - "There's no privacy now, anyways."

Well, according to Philip; that's not where LL wants to be, eventually, with SL. Right now, wireframe doesn't really let you see into anything you couldn't "camera into" in the first place. But the ideal is to stop that from happening. (camera ins, seeing through walls, etc).

Lets say down the road, there -is- privacy in SL. The wireframe mode, THEN, if retained, would blow through that. So that's LL's reasoning as to why it isn't allowed into the standard release clients.

Now, I for one, like it, and wouldn't complain if it stayed, as long as the current status quo of privacy existed, removing it later when more privacy could happen in SL.

But it's counter to LL's long term intents, so it'll probably be gone by 1.6build5 or 1.6build6.

So, get your screenshots and video caps while you can.

There is a way to do this without the feature enabled in the client, but I don't see what the big deal is having it in the SL one. As it stands, if I fly around with all objects turned off, but avs still on, then I can see you perfectly.

Wireframe makes things a bit harder to see, you occasionally confuse yourself with what is 'closer' than the other, making your mind go through a few flip-flops while it sorts it all out visually. Also, the chat overlay are these little polys with letter textures, so you can't see any chat at all while in this mode, or at least I couldn't with the method I use.

It is neat to see the LOD algorithm do its work and tesselate things and such as you get closer, revealing more detail.

There ARE ways to get wireframe without it being integrated into the client, folks.

For a LOOOOONG time the FPS (first-person shooter) community has struggled to control cheaters using "wallhacks" that allow one to see through walls, etc. Some even go further and highlight enemy players.

All of this is usually done via a sort of 3D API 'proxy' that intercepts calls from the application to the 3D API (be it OpenGL or DirectX) munges these calls with their own then finally passes the scene along to the 3D subsystem in modified form.

So it really ought to be quite straightforward to create a "wallhack" of sorts for the SL client that shows everything in wireframe. I personally don't really know enough to produce such a thing, but there are a lot of people out there that do...it's just a matter of finding someone to do it.

*stomp* want!

Re: privacy, if you are really going to include a wall that is not see-trough that the camera cannot zoom trough... then make it solid in wireframe mode.

Um.

No.


And if you don't understand why, then just accept the 'no'.

i think thats a very cool feature, although personally i cant see what ID use it for...i say keep it in though.

Wireframes can have hidden line removal, I've seen it. Maybe if LL designs a graphics engine that does hidden surface removal it can come back.

So... on the privacy principle, should we not be allowed to turn off Objects in debug?

... what about "Hide Selected"?

The privacy principle and explination would hold up... if we didn't have many features currently that allow us to see through walls already.

Theres no reason for Wireframe view to not exist, privacy is not a valid arguement for it.

If in the future if LL wants SL to be a place where privacy can be had, theres going to be alot of features being taken out that will piss off alot of people. (alt+cam, Debug turning off objects, Hide Selected)

Endorsed, Wireframe should stay, there is no logic for it not to currently.

You're right. And many changes in SL have happened that have caused people to bitch, moan, whine, and complain, because someone took away their shiny toy.

Wireframe decreases privacy. It's counter to LL's long term intent.

You thinking it's "frickin sweet" is not a valid argument for it.

It wouldn't be useful if it was using hidden line removal. What I'd want it for is to be able to see all the prims that make up a build. Oh well. We can dream

Oh great, now I get to "play" Second Life as if it were Battlezone.

I don't know how future blockage "Camera-In" -- or as I prefer to say, camscanning -- will be implemented, but I do hope it's on a selectable basis that doesn't block out ALL walls by default. Similar to how someone chooses to build a skybox wayyy up or chooses to surround their fort with home security systems, a choice for "YEAHHH! LET'S BLOCK DA WALLS AND NO PEEPIN TOMS' WILL BE GETTIN' A SNEAKY PEEK, Y0!" would make sense. AND walk hand-in-hand with what Oz said about "Selected".

I know camscanning has helped me many a time browse a mall more efficiently, and I'd dislike to see some more wonky camera angles just because someone makes you walk through a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

As an alternaEarth proverb goes, you have two fish, one net.

I whole heartedly endorse this feature! . *sigh* if only.

The only way to achieve real privacy is to not send any data to the client that the user isn't entitled to see. The only practical way to do that is to divide worldspace using portals. SL doesn't use portals and it's difficult to see how they could be engineered into SL the way it works now.

Let me chime in here: This feature won't happen due to the privacy issues already mentioned in this thread. Sorry folks.

Don't worry, you can still maneuver your client camera to pry into places you aren't supposed to see. So disabling this feature won't achieve Linden Lab's goals.

/me shrugs

The way I see it, the question is not whether Joe H. PeepingTom can mouse their beady little camera eyes into your personal abode (for now). Rather, it's a matter of having this stuff be readily viewable with little/no effort on the part of the client, intentionally or unintentionally.

It's also a matter of social engineering - people wish to feel that solid walls are actually solid walls to most passersby, and for the "spy guys," well... that's what all the whining on security scripts is for.

Finally, as pointed out by Michi, making it easier to spy on others would be counterintuitive to any attempts for privacy. Hence, it's not an intentional feature that'll stick around. Nor will it accomplish the final goal *of* privacy.

I could go on, but that's a sufficient enough Cliffs Notes version.

so how does having the ability to turn off prims in the debug menu figure into the whole privacy thing? are we losing that too?

Yes, will we be losing any other helpfull features?

These same features that allow people to spy on others also allow people to find lost prims, griefing prims, help with building, and other legit uses.

Besides wireframe being uh... "frickin sweet", I see it as a potentialy valuable tool for doing all the legit activities listed above. Aren't those qualities exactly what make a good feature?

Without the ability to work at the vertex sub object level; Why would anybody care to throw the renderer into wireframe? I can edit prims just fine without this feature. In terms of security, I must have missed something. Security is already a joke. Maybe if something was written as not to allow Avitars to be displayed while in wireframe mode? Just a thought, could really care less either way. I realize my more complex models in AutoCad before I bring them to SL anway. I can look at all the vectors I want all day long in there, then again I usually work in shaded mode.