Land buying Bots are effecting EVERYONE
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Skye Whitcroft
Disappointed
Join date: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 207
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03-13-2007 02:14
From: Sarah Nerd And I didn't come into this attacking you and your bots personally. Yes you did. This is all part of your campaign of harassment spreading lies and rumours about me (and now other bot owners) in order to make my life miserable. I conduct my business in a respectable way and I'm sorry that I'm better at it than you but these constant attacks aren't helping your case at all. They just make me more determined to drive you all out of business. You want to know who really lacks ethics? It's the people who are constantly orbitting me and crashing my viewer as I try to talk to my customers or travel around the sim. It's the people who take every opportunity to make up random stories about imaginary evil deeds I might have committed (Prices will crash! Prices will rise! No-one can buy land ever again!). And it's the people who come to these forums to rile up the masses with horror stories, real or imagined, about how the world is coming to an end because suddenly profit is going into my pocket instead of yours. It's been three months of this petty childishness and I'm just about sick of it. If you care so much about ethics then stop harassing me and stop harassing my friends.
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Alazarin Mondrian
Teh Trippy Hippie Dragon
Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,549
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03-13-2007 02:33
Seeing how it's now open season for bot-operators to rape SL and its userbase (just as it was a few month back with non-automated land swoopers), it's obviously time to fight back. But how? I'm not a very techy type. So far the only thing I can come up with is for people to stop using the 'sell to anyone' option and to only sell directly to each other.
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Porky Gorky
Temperamentalalistical
Join date: 25 May 2004
Posts: 1,414
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03-13-2007 02:58
From: Sarah Nerd Don't think I havent. I'm just doing my best to raise awarness all around, and like it or not this new bot screws over everyone. And this is the forumns, there is nothing in forumns but moaning and bitching. Why in fact, I think you just moaned about me moaning..... Well...yeah...that shut me up 
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Coyote Momiji
Pintsized Plutonium
Join date: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 715
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03-13-2007 03:44
From: Alazarin Mondrian Seeing how it's now open season for bot-operators to rape SL and its userbase (just as it was a few month back with non-automated land swoopers), it's obviously time to fight back. But how? I'm not a very techy type. So far the only thing I can come up with is for people to stop using the 'sell to anyone' option and to only sell directly to each other. Which is precisely what I did the last time I had mainland - sold to X, rather than allowing someone to jump on my vastly-underpriced land.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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03-13-2007 04:01
From: Alazarin Mondrian So far the only thing I can come up with is for people to stop using the 'sell to anyone' option and to only sell directly to each other. It doesn't necessarily require a technological solution, just a policy change. Zero tolerance for unethical land sales: sell a parcel on a private sim and reclaim without refunding, forfeits the sim and any funds. Sell waterfront that isn't waterfront, forfeit any holdings and funds. Buying land that was mispriced and don't return it to the seller, carve up land in 16m² parcels, and so on. At the start the human cost of investigating the ARs will be high, but after the first batch of account closures whoever is left will sober up.
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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03-13-2007 04:39
From: Kitty Barnett It doesn't necessarily require a technological solution, just a policy change.
Zero tolerance for unethical land sales: sell a parcel on a private sim and reclaim without refunding, forfeits the sim and any funds. Sell waterfront that isn't waterfront, forfeit any holdings and funds. Buying land that was mispriced and don't return it to the seller, carve up land in 16m² parcels, and so on.
At the start the human cost of investigating the ARs will be high, but after the first batch of account closures whoever is left will sober up. Disputes between residents, such as alleged misselling won't be governed by the Lindens.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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03-13-2007 05:12
From: Elanthius Flagstaff None of the old guard, absolutely none would wait to see if two random people hanging around have mistakenly set a parcel for public sale. They all buy first, ask questions later.
It seems to me like everyone is fondly remembering the good old days when kindly old Mister Wilkins the local land baron would buy your land and pay you double and offer you a nice cup of hot cocoa when you went to his house. Not like these new fangled bots which steal your land and eat your dog and screw your wife all in the wink of an eye.
Let me refresh your memory to three months ago when everyone was complaining about land barons doing the exact same thing that bots are doing now except they were 5 seconds slower. I never mentioned any good old days. Im simply stating that a land bot has no capacity to make an ethical judgement. Land swoopers have always been a problem yes. Doesnt a bot mean that you can be a "Multi-swooper" though? As in run several bots at once.
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Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
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03-13-2007 05:23
Well I certainly hope that decisions such as removing in-world transaction history checking tomorrow haven't been made in order to facilitate the smooth farming of land sales by bots every second of every minute of every hour of every day.
I mean if they're going to look at lightening the load on SL, they may as well start with the real search spammers.
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Rockwell Ginsberg
Boss
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 560
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03-13-2007 05:35
I hate to play devil's advocate here, but this is your world, your imagination, right? Those with the creativity and technical knowledge to one up the competition should win out, just like in RL. In that respect, I say good for you, bot barons. But on a personal level, I wish there weren't land bots. If I had one, I'd be singing a different tune though.
Elan, you and I spoke about a CAPTCHA system for land sales, where a human would have to enter a few letters from an image file before buying a piece of land. This is a task that a bot would presumably be incapable of doing. If the bots really become a problem for LL (adding too much load on the DB), do you think is a feasible option? I'd like to see it. But I have my own interests at heart.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-13-2007 05:42
From: Rockwell Ginsberg Elan, you and I spoke about a CAPTCHA system for land sales, where a human would have to enter a few letters from an image file before buying a piece of land. This is a task that a bot would presumably be incapable of doing. If the bots really become a problem for LL (adding too much load on the DB), do you think is a feasible option? I'd like to see it. But I have my own interests at heart. 1) Download CAPTCHA image, put it on website 2) Chat in public group channel the URL of image 3a) Reward first person to chat back the right response with a small amount of Lindens. 3b) Punish/ignore those who make wrong guesses. or There are about 10 links at the bottom of the following page describing ways to programmatically defeat CAPTCHA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CaptchaCAPTCHA will raise the bar, but it won't stop any of this. To be fair defeating CAPTCHA even very simple ones like LLs is non-trivial, but it's possible.
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Rockwell Ginsberg
Boss
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 560
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03-13-2007 05:46
I don't know what incentive LL has to do anything about this anyway. Unless the bots are really adding to the load on the database, they probably will continue to ignore this "problem" and provide ineffective solutions. Bot activity is increasing the total land trading activity and adding revenue to LL's pockets. Don't forget that.
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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03-13-2007 05:47
From: Rockwell Ginsberg I hate to play devil's advocate here, but this is your world, your imagination, right? Those with the creativity and technical knowledge to one up the competition should win out, just like in RL. In that respect, I say good for you, bot barons. But on a personal level, I wish there weren't land bots. If I had one, I'd be singing a different tune though.
Elan, you and I spoke about a CAPTCHA system for land sales, where a human would have to enter a few letters from an image file before buying a piece of land. This is a task that a bot would presumably be incapable of doing. If the bots really become a problem for LL (adding too much load on the DB), do you think is a feasible option? I'd like to see it. But I have my own interests at heart. It depends on the strength of the CAPTCHA, some of them are useless. I can see LL going this route, they already use them on account sign up for example. They have publicly saidFrom: Robin Linden ...we’re looking at adding a step to the purchase process which should make it more difficult to use bots in purchasing land and CAPTCHAs are certainly the most obvious way of stopping or at least slowing bots, especially if they're running unattended.
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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03-13-2007 05:48
From: Elanthius Flagstaff 1) Download CAPTCHA image, put it on website 2) Chat in public group channel the URL of image 3a) Reward first person to chat back the right response with a small amount of Lindens. 3b) Punish/ignore those who make wrong guesses. or There are about 10 links at the bottom of the following page describing ways to programmatically defeat CAPTCHA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CaptchaCAPTCHA will raise the bar, but it won't stop any of this. To be fair defeating CAPTCHA even very simple ones like LLs is non-trivial, but it's possible. Doing that would defeat the CAPTCHA, but would it do it quick enough to get the land ahead of human operators? It's not like signing up accounts, where speed is not an issue.
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Pud Gasser
ooo
Join date: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 28
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03-13-2007 05:59
The only problem I have with the old bots is that as a land trader they cost me money.
As Sarah said the new bot is different, it does sometimes relist the land at a higher price instantly and in some cases when a human buyer clicks on buy and the price is still showing at the old price by the time the human confirms the purchase the bot has set the higher price and the human buyer pays the higher price with no warning at all of the higher price.
I have been caught by this and I know others have aswell, in my own case the new price was pretty low anyway but there's nothing stopping the bots owner from setting a drastically higher price in the hope of catching someone.
This is an exploit and when it can involve large amounts of RL cash I believe it to be a very serious issue.
I'm hoping the new bot is going to finally get something done about landbots in general, again it's for purely selfish reasons I feel this way.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-13-2007 06:20
From: Elanthius Flagstaff It seems to me like everyone is fondly remembering the good old days when kindly old Mister Wilkins the local land baron would buy your land and pay you double and offer you a nice cup of hot cocoa when you went to his house. Not like these new fangled bots which steal your land and eat your dog and screw your wife all in the wink of an eye. The good old days still exist. Just not on the mainland. *sits back and sips some tea* I watch all this bot stuff with fascination.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-13-2007 06:23
From: Desmond Shang The good old days still exist. Just not on the mainland. *sits back and sips some tea* I watch all this bot stuff with fascination. *sends his bots to eat Desmond's dog* *Edit: But I think even you'd agree Desmond that there are plenty of chances for the ill-informed getting ripped off in PIs.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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03-13-2007 06:24
Thats exactly the point I'm trying to get across here, athough some bot dealers try to play the lesser of a few evils, this new one shows just what kind of door that allowing bot buying to go on has opened. And as it continues, more and more of the ruthless, greedy, no compassion , no concern for repution bots will come into sl. After enough average residents get screwed over big time, people other than land dealers will start to take real notice on a very regular basis.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-13-2007 06:30
From: Sarah Nerd Thats exactly the point I'm trying to get across here, athough some bot dealers try to play the lesser of a few evils, this new one shows just what kind of door that allowing bot buying to go on has opened. And as it continues, more and more of the ruthless, greedy, no compassion , no concern for repution bots will come into sl. After enough average residents get screwed over big time, people other than land dealers will start to take real notice on a very regular basis. The solution then is not arbitrary rules against certain residents (bots are just as much residents as you or I). The solution is technical. Simply plug these holes in the game. We need a new UI that does not encourage people to sell land for L$1 to Anyone when they are actually trying to transfer it out of a group. We need a way to prevent people from paying more for land than what they expected. All these problems are better solved permanently through technical means than they are by making up silly rules which are entirely unenforceable.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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03-13-2007 06:34
From: Elanthius Flagstaff The solution then is not arbitrary rules against certain residents (bots are just as much residents as you or I). The solution is technical. Simply plug these holes in the game.
We need a new UI that does not encourage people to sell land for L$1 to Anyone when they are actually trying to transfer it out of a group. We need a way to prevent people from paying more for land than what they expected.
All these problems are better solved permanently through technical means than they are by making up silly rules which are entirely unenforceable. I'm all for any way that stops this, technical or otherwise.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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03-13-2007 06:42
From: Elanthius Flagstaff The solution then is not arbitrary rules against certain residents (bots are just as much residents as you or I). The solution is technical. Simply plug these holes in the game.
um perhaps you had better rephrase that. A bot is capable of running on its own without human control right? Thus the bots off doing whatever while the owner is on their non bot account. A bot is not as much a resident as people are. It may have an account,etc. But a resident? please. I would go further to say someone is only really a resident when they include the sum total of all their accounts. What the lindens define as a resident isnt relevant. Im speaking as a member of the community. A Bot owner is a member of the community. Their bot, isnt. Basically at the low end of second life - we have accounts used to muti game the camp chairs - Zombie camper bots. And at the high end - Land Bots. No one has answered me if its possible to have multiple land bots running. It seems to me it should be? If it is isnt it true to say this is a significant change from a OCD person with a fast computer?
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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03-13-2007 06:42
From: Stephen Zenith Disputes between residents, such as alleged misselling won't be governed by the Lindens. Hence the term "policy change"  . From: Colette Meiji A bot is not as much a resident as people are. It may have an account,etc. But a resident? please. I'm all for it, actually, if bot owners really feel that way. Bots have no legal standing and they weren't programmed to sue when their account is closed  .
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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03-13-2007 06:51
From: Kitty Barnett Hence the term "policy change"  . Roll your eyes all you like, they won't change the policy of not getting involved in resident-resident disputes.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-13-2007 06:52
From: Colette Meiji No one has answered me if its possible to have multiple land bots running. I know of one report of 40 bots logged in simultaneously. The main restriction is bandwidth. For what it's worth I regularly log in as two alts at once and could probably get away with 3 if I tried hard or had more computers.
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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03-13-2007 06:54
From: Elanthius Flagstaff I know of one report of 40 bots logged in simultaneously. The main restriction is bandwidth. For what it's worth I regularly log in as two alts at once and could probably get away with 3 if I tried hard or had more computers. Also depends if you're using a modified client or libsl. A libsl bot won't need to download any textures or geometry info. I don't have enough alts (or a need for any more alts  ) to try with more than the 2 accounts I have.
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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03-13-2007 06:56
If everyone had their own land bot, and the thousands of land bots seriously lagged the servers, then Linden Labs would do something about the land bot policy.
If it isn't griefing for 3 to do it, it isn't griefing for 3 million to do it.
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