Sad Story

Is quite a difference between Lina and Skinhead again I gotta point this out. My name is an actual name for starters. Im not representing a group of people with my name an organization or anything. Skinhead on the other hand in any case represents a group. Some people find that group name to be offensive as such LL has to do something. My name could mean gas chamber in your country to but thats not belitteling a certain group. And they most likely do know what it means. You have no proof they didnt. Its the conjecture that in 1 form it belittles an Entire group/race of people. That is written in their policy that they will not allow that.

He signed the policy and he like everyone else has to abide by that rule. You cant just make a special case because he meant it a different way. That would mean i could call myself amy racist term and say it means something different and not get banned for it. Yeah great way to manage something as an online service get a group of people mad over one guy. The deal here is that he agreed to the ToS. If he didnt he wouldnt be in world.

While you may not mind it yourself ordinal or a few other people there are people that take offense to it and it is a symbol/group name that belittles a group of people. As robin said they do not allow that. Its not new policy its been there the whole time.

As i said most people dont bother reading the stuff they agree to. While you may find it wrong he made an agreement with LL and he has to abide by what that agreement says even if he means something else by the word.

Yes they should be hurt as long as they do not understand that generalizing is wrong.

They are supposed to learn, but I think people with such a nerrow mind like you are painting them are rarely existing anyway - meaning they know and you should not think they are stupid.

Yes they have to take, that you cannot treat a man for his culture, race, nationalitiy or religion.

It was all said before - if you are generalizing then you should ban germans for they are known that they have killed jews, you should ban Holland, Portugal, Great Brittain, Spain and other countries for occupying the world, you should ban US-americans for having had slavery and genocid on native americans, you should ban christians for missionating the world and destroying other peoples culture, you should ban hippies for they are using drugs and so on.

The other point I have is, that you are doing the job of the nazi-skinheads, pussycat. They will be very happy if people go on believing that skinheads are all racist and nazi. You are helping them and doing their business without even knowing.

I am very happy that we have redskins, SHARP-skins, and all the other rough boys telling the boneheads that they are wrong. Nobody else can do it better, pussycat and people like her are not even interested to do so!

I just have to point out, as world wide tech support for just about any country that has a computer...

Skinhead IS a name in some places, for someone, since I have SEEN the name and gotten a call from someone with it.

I have also gotten calls from:

Asshands, Jerklows, Klans, Niger (emphasis on the 'i' darn you) and more than I want to remember.

What does that mean? Well, for one, when you have billions of people on a planet, you tend to get names that you did not expect. Welcome to the wide world of people!

I think my neighbor didn't know the word Skinhead was automatically offensive. Actually, I didn't think the word "skinhead" was automatically offensive either - and English is my first language. But then I knew about the skinheads originally coming out of the labour movement and seeing them active in the ska/punk scene. It was music I liked listening to in my teens.

Actually, this whole situation is highly disturbing. The way he was arbitrarily suspended caused a great deal of uncertainty for me as his neighbor and I would guess for others who lived around him. He didn't do anything that warrented that sort of heavyhanded behaviour. And even though I had my disagreements with him over the typical neighbor sort of issues, I am on his side with this issue 100 percent.

If LL doesn't like a name and feels it could possibly be misinterpreted, they should put it on a list so that people can't register it in the first place. You can't expect people to know stuff like that, especially if they are in another country and English is not their first language. And take in account the person's history - Skimi isn't one of those white power sorts, and his past history should have been taken in account, and given a grace period to change his name. Just logging him out without a prior explanation was really a wrong way to handle it.

One last comment.

You got this backwards. People ALL OVER THE WORLD, mostly know what skinheads and the Spirit of 69 are all about. They know about Rude Boys, Trads, and the music their culture is associated with.

If you're into Britpop (like I've been for a long long time) then OF COURSE YOU KNOW THIS. And lots and lots of other people.

Em, let's rephrase this.

/sarcasm on

Skinhead is sometimes associated with a small group of fascists misappropriating the symbols of a working class and music subculture that actually has nothing to do with them. So what, a small group of people that take mistaken offence in the real world are supposed to dictate the definitions of a word to the majority who do understand it? The word Skinhead does not belittle a group of people - it means literally "bald head" which is a reference to their traditional haircut - which belittles nobody. I'm quite shocked that a small group of people in one country should think the ENTIRE WORLD should know that a small group of AMERICANS have no clue about the British music scene and working class movements of the late 60s.

/sarcasm off.

take care

Why does the forum say there are no newer posts other than those which fill two pages?
I posted a reply to the issue this morning. I do NOT SEE my contribution at all. Why?
I'm also concerned to know why a good-hearted and considerate former neighbor, Skinhead Mission, was banned because of his name.
There are several other AVs whose names are questionable and have participated in SL longer than Skinhead has, yet they're still here with their same names.
Names are far less important than behavior. He was a good, kind person.

As someone who absolutely /detests/ nazis and their ilk, I have to say that my first assumption on seeing "Skinhead" isn't to think the person is a nazi, but more likely a straightedger or summat.

Lifelong American here. English is my first language; I'm related to people who died in the camps.

I'm utterly bewildered by the kneejerking.

I have to concur with Herbert in the idea that by not stepping up and itterating that skinheads and the culture thereof is primarily nonviolent, nonracist, and whatever else the media has fooled people into believing based on a label; people are, in fact, propagating that negative stereotype.

When the nsm (national socialist movement) marched in Toledo, Oh and later in the nearby city of Orlando, Fl.. the media said well "neo-nazi" before skinhead.. and primarily relied on the term neo-nazi. In speaking of skinheads that had gone to protest, they were addressed as anti-racist or SHARPS (as there is a distinct difference). If a person says skinhead to imply extreme veiws.. they are in the wrong. Just as anyone saying any other group is a certain way based on the extremes of society eg.. shall we then say all white males from the US are serial killers becuase of Dahmer, BTK killer, etc etc... absolutely not! But, based on the cable box thinking Ive been reading, it would seem that some could adopt even that extreme of an idea. I do not imagine arguing in an open forum to address and change the mindsets that I am reading.. as I am sure not to change mine as well. Thanks to those of you who understand the culture whether youre a part of it or not.

I understand, that by playing this game, agrreing to the TOS, and realizing that anything created is property of LL including my avi.. that they have the final right to do as they see fit. I can appreciate that on that level. The issue I have is where is the line? Today a name, tomorrow a religious group, how about people that dress in all black? It worries me a great deal when I consider expanding or putting a great amount of work and money into SL and at any moment a person comes into my store and see skankin jim and thinks omg! thats a skinhead we gotta report Kalik! Ive actually scaled back in recent times when I think about how much land skinhead owns compared to me and at any moment I could lose it all on a whim.

I am going to have to agree with Ordinal. We, especially for some reason here in America, are so damn worried about political correctness. I got told by a STRAIGHT person that because I am straight I should not use the word Queer and by no means should my gay friends and I call each other Fag. Mind you, we do it in a completely joking matter and it is always between US. My gay friends know me and they know me well. They know that I haven't a homophobic bone in my body. But to some people here, me using Queer or fag is seen as an OMG moment. OH Renee how could you say that... GEESH people.

Skinhead may be associated with neo nazis here, but in MOST places it is NOT and this IS a global game. The guy is freaking from Germany for fiddles sake.

If you have a PERSONAL problem with somebodies freakin NAME, then don't freakin associate with them. Now if the guy had been running around throwing up anti semtic crap etc, then YEAH, you would have REASON to complain. But he wasn't and from what I understand, he has MANY friends on here from ALL walks of life.

LL fucked up, PERIOD. If they don't like certain frickin names, then they should implement a program that locks out certain names. According to Micheal at LL, that can't be done, well it shows how much he flippin knows cause it CAN.

So Linden Labs, why don't you impliment a name blocking program. You can throw in the bad words like FUCK or SHITHEAD, Or DUMBASS. Then you wouldn't have to deal with the problem. But the fact of the matteris, there are ALWAYS going to be people who don't like something or other. I don't like the damn name Shannon, but you don't see me waging war on everyone in SL named Shannon.. ( Totally NO offense to the Shannons in here, just BAD experiences LMAO)

I think we should all be absolutly PISSED that LL instigates a policy based soley on ONE persons issue with a name. Force them to WRITE a new policy that address globalism. Until then, quit having a kanipshion over the name Skinhead ARGH

Just thought I would post this....

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

I can see it now... They will start with NO Politics first, mainly left wing politics or SEVERE left wing, because after all they are capitalists, then they will go after the sex industry, wouldn't want crazy sex fiends running around, then they will go after anyone who is a small time land broker... OH MY the list goes on... Get a GRIP...

I see Miss Robin hasn't responded to the new thread about policy LMAO Why do I feel like I am trapped inside a FOX news studio and Bill O'Reilly is yelling at me????

SL's volunteer sheriff/sensitive soldier been at it again?

Renee - in a spirit of fair play, you have to remember that Robin does NOT work at weekends, so expecting any response over a weekend is unduly optimistic. Furthermore Robin is far more likely to look than to actually comment.

Very little said in this thread is what she wants to hear though (with the possible exception of Nolan's LL supportive post, and given the outcome of that, she probably wishes that hadn't been made), so that makes her participation even less likely.

Also, she DID suggest a new thread be opened to discuss the issues raised by Skinhead's unfortunate encounter with a trigger happy PC Linden (though not the incident itself) - so if you want Robin to participate maybe you should take her at her word. She's made it abundantly clear that she, or any other LL representative will NOT discuss Skinhead's specific situation any further.

Actually I'm somewhat surprised this thread wasn't locked or deleted, maybe it will be, but I think an apparent lack of understanding on LL's part and the subsequent actions, and the implications for everyone in SL is something that should be freely discussed, hopefully the thread will continue.

Interestingly it's revealed a number of sensible people with balanced outlooks who could actually teach LL a thing or two about what makes a true liberal - as opposed to a 'bleeding heart on my sleeve' 'liberal'...
That would presuppose that LL was willing to change it's attitude (highly unlikely) and possibly even seek to re-educate the attitudes of the office Lindens...

Hopefully that explains Robin's absence from this thread for the last few days?

I'd like to say her absence is due to the overwhelming response to my pleas to fix my account...

...but I can't.

Having not read the entire thread (I plan to finish up after I post), perhaps he was given an opportunity, and chose not to change his name. I, personally, would not want to if I was innocent of any wrong doing in game and my name in the wider universe did not mean something evil to everyone.

As usual- if only I had finished the entire thread

As an American, I do tire of all the be-littlement we receive. I won't apologize for my country...I live here, I don't agree with everything that goes on here, but then again I don't agree with everything that goes on in the rest of the world. You don't see me insulting whole cultures, races, groups and ethnicities by out right name calling or snide comments just because I don't happen to agree with them.

Why is it ok for you individuals that do this, to do this? If you can justify this as an acceptable behavior then why bother trying get along with anyone when no one has to be civil?

I'm puzzled. You have managed to detect 'Anti-American sentiment' in a thread where the general feeling appears to be that there is something wrong with LL's policy regarding user's first names.

To be honest that wasn't something I picked up.

I'll freely admit to despising the 'wearing my bleeding heart in my sleeve liberal' types - of ALL nationalities. I don't like fraudsters.

Other than that, race, colour, creed, choice of name *shrugs* it's all the same, no problem, providing they conduct themselves reasonably.

Actually there were several references indicating anti-americanism. I believe it was in regards to a perceived misunderstanding to Mr. Mission's first name. And also the assumption was that because LL is located in America his name was considered unacceptable and thus banned after several months if not a year of using it. This assumption was made based on one person's initial statement.

Because we do not know the particulars of BOTH sides of the discussion between LL and Mr. Mission...we surely should assume nothing. Unless Chime Mission is Mr. Mission's alt, then Mr. Mission has not even stated his side of the story.

For all we know it could have been someone(s) from another country that may have ARed Mr. Missions name. The Linden's did state that they asked Mr. Mission if he would change his name, and he apparently did.

Heck, it may not even been about his name... he could have been the one wronged and was offered another account in compensation and Chime assumed the worst..The Linden's can't and won't discuss. Thank goodness for that, I wouldn't want my personal business offered up for discussion without me starting the thread!

I see, well, if you'd read the thread thoroughly you'd have found that Chime Mission is NOT Skinhead Mission's alt - he IS Skinhead Mission - after the name change LL forced on him for some extraordinary reason.
There's a great deal more in there too, Robin's declaration of the new pinker, fluffier SL - more so than RL she insists, for instance.
Which incidentally means even 'normal' (whatever that means) standards in speech, dress, behaviour, choice of name, etc, etc can be interpreted by any Linden, at any time, as unacceptable and result in punitive measures - without any indication of what the new super pink fluffy standards are! All we know is that SL has got to be better than RL in this respect. By decree..

(Your 'anti-American sentiments' however, seem to be no more than that people, possibly myself included, have noted that Americans, generically, seem to have a somewhat parochial view of world culture and affairs that frequently lead them into difficulties dealing with other cultures...
Something you really wouldn't expect of a firm that's actually pursuing an international userbase - indeed, putting absolutely NO restriction on their userbase whatever lately!)

This is extremely important and merits discussion, even at the risk of bruising American egos (and many of the thread contributors are American BTW and don't seem too badly injured) as Robin's new Super Pink Fluffy SL, with no published set of standards, and Skinhead Mission's experience as an example do not paint a pretty picture of the future of SL in many people's opinion.

Just wanted to make a clarification. Chime Mission is not Skinhead, he's a friend of his. Skimi Mission is Skinhead (and yes, Nisa, he has posted his side of the story here).

And without getting too involved in this thread, I wanted to mention that I agree with the general consensus here. While LL was certainly in their right to do what they did, it wasn't in their (or anyone else's) best interests. Not only did they seemingly not research and consider the benign, globally predominant use of the word "skinhead", they apparently took action on Skinhead's account before even attempting to communicate with him... if what Skimi says is indeed true, and not simply the result of communication failure.

I can only hope LL learns from their mistake here, regardless of whether or not they publically admit it as such. This incident bothers me, and I really don't want to see more like it crop up.

Your are of course right Beatfox... there was some confusion about that initially in the thread and later in world when I met the pair of them. Fortunately their English is far better than my German, but I still managed to get them confused. Thanks for picking that up and correcting my inadvertent misinformation.

No worries. Happens to the best of us.

Edit: AH HA!! The computer I was on was filtering for some reason... I went to another computer and can now see ALL the posts. I found Skimi's posts and I also read Nolan Nash's posts. I now have an informed opinion. Thanks so much for pointing out the Skimi-Skinhead connect Beatfox



Maybe the post from Skimi stating his side of the story is in another thread, I just went through this one again and could find no Skimi... I'll look for his in a moment. Thanks for letting me know though, as I am always curious about these things.

To Doc: I started to respond to your statements in so many ways, and decided this was the best one for the moment... I made an assumption after reading a few postings, made a statment, came back and edited my statement after THOROUGHLY reading the thread, and then voiced a personal opinion as an aside. I don't wish to hi-jack this thread any further by climbing on a soap box. I think it's a pretty much done thread knowing Skimi is Skinhead and he's posted his side of the story apparently elsewhere (either that or I'm not able to view all thread postings).

I don't think anybody suggested that. It was merely pointed out that skinhead "culture" across Europe is very diverse, that the movement didn't begin with racism, and that there are many skinhead subcultures that existed long before and after one "subculture" involved itself with racism. It was also pointed out that "skinhead" as a label isn't a byword for racism in Europe the way it is in the United States. You know, we have these differences -- and that is absolutely fine -- but it becomes very difficult for us folk outside the nation that's clearly the centre of the universe to second guess what words you may or may not find offensive. Particularly when our accounts and funds are threatened with deletion without any warning (if that's what happened).

Suggesting skinheads in Europe (a continent with close to a billion people) are "a group" is just plain blinkered. An astonishing generalisation.
--
Dillon

Down with the bad skinheads!

How would you feel about gay skinheads getting married though? Here is a picture from a european gay skinhead group and they do seem very nice.

I'd like to see someone bring this up at the next Town Hall Meeting with Phillip. Would be interesting to see how he responds.