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Differences between SL and FL economy

blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-20-2005 00:05
I found some very insightful things by Chip Midnight here:

- Consumer psychology is very different.
- The factors that drive the popularity of a product are different (not at all needs based, completely fad based, with price not being the same kind of factor it is in RL).
- The life cycle of a product's potential popularity is much shorter.
- There is no supply chain.
- An individual entrepeneur has big advantages over collaborative ventures.

What other differences are there between SL and FL economics?
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"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Lianne Marten
Cheese Baron
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 2,192
04-20-2005 00:18
-Products have infinite life times
-Identical copies of products can be made with no effort, once the original is finished
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-20-2005 00:38
Well, there is often a support overhead though this can be minimized.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-20-2005 00:53
I am not sure customer psychology is so different from RL, other than than that which you reiterated, that the attention span may be a little shorter, plus, no true seasonal sales strategies and the like. Imagine yourself living in a self supporting neighborhood where a lot of educated and or talented people gather - that is SL. They tend to be thinkers, innovators, designers, etc. you wouldnt need for much in the way of supplier what with virtually unlimited resources.

People always like to compare the SL Economy to RL economy.

The overhead is really minimal. If your a producer, creating & SELLING (NOTE <SELLING>;) goods, you don't have to have a shitload of land to be financially stable and viable. The investment then becomes time. This is where everything gets warped because people have a plethora of different ideas about what their time is worth.

Which ties directly into : Why are you here? To make money? To recreate? To meet your tier through a bit of content creation or event attending? To pay your tier and then some? To actually be able to live off of SL? How about who fecking cares? None of these are wrong and they are all interdependent. SL is not that much different than RL, albeit time compressed.

The supply chain issue is different. There really is none. There is no movement of raw resource, other than land (textile in my case P) from farm to processing plant to mill to consumer. Just the same for homes, or what have you.

I don't know about the individual over the group. I have always made adequate $L, whether in a group venture or not. It's just a matter of doing it. When you can't rezz a prim , call me, I will help you.

Too bad I have to charge you 2k, otherwise I gotta answer to the P 2 K
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-20-2005 01:13
I'm too tired to add much at the moment, but a quick thought about the advantages of sole proprietorships over collaborative ventures... this has more to do with the tools at our disposal for adequately managing bunesinesses that involve multiple people and profit sharing. If the tools were robust enough I think the advantage would probably go the other way. I also think we'd see more people hiring help.

And another thought about consumer psychology... SL is entirely a leisure economy. There are some expensive things that require a bit of planning or saving to purchase (for those that don't want to just go stock up at GOM) but I think 95% of all sales in SL are impulse buys. In the real world economy most purchases are not impulse buys except for those made by bazillionaires.
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-20-2005 01:37
I think we need to say what is the difference between the Internet EWare Economy (software, ebooks, services, etc) and the SL Economy.

One fundamental difference is the micropayment system. I believe this creates the heart of what chip calls the "impulse buy" economy that SL enjoys.

Because we have a micropayment system we are able to charge very little money for products and therefore able to make impluse buys.

I also agree with the leisure bit. Fundamentally, SL is a luxury. Nothing in SL provides, food, shelter, or clothing.

Hopefully the last difference will not remain.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-20-2005 02:33
From: blaze Spinnaker
I think we need to say what is the difference between the Internet EWare Economy (software, ebooks, services, etc) and the SL Economy.

One fundamental difference is the micropayment system. I believe this creates the heart of what chip calls the "impulse buy" economy that SL enjoys.
Is this a bad thing?
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-20-2005 05:15
From: someone
What other differences are there between SL and FL economics?


Do you mean to say SL and Florida? or RL? What is FL?

And the biggest difference is that RL doesn't have all the anti-commerce sentiments able to acquire such traction. There are way more checks and balances.
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Roberta Dalek
Probably trouble
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,174
04-20-2005 05:37
From: Nolan Nash
Imagine yourself living in a self supporting neighborhood where a lot of educated and or talented people gather - that is SL. They tend to be thinkers, innovators, designers, etc. you wouldnt need for much in the way of supplier what with virtually unlimited resources.

The supply chain issue is different. There really is none. There is no movement of raw resource, other than land (textile in my case P) from farm to processing plant to mill to consumer. Just the same for homes, or what have you.


No - I think you are wrong. The vast majority of SL residents are actually the social players - these make up most of our customers.

To sell items people generally rent land from landowners. You can use your own land - but you sell more in carefully selected rented spots.

We provide income to the landowner in return for sales (no sales and we leave). The landowner is responsible for bringing in the traffic by holding events. To provide events they need to subsidise them - paying hosts, providing prizes etc.

Ideally the landowner would make more in rent than they spend in bringing in the traffic. However as we can see from a lot of recent posts this often isn't the case.

The events scene and the clothing market are very closely related. We provide impulse purchases for social players.

Others sell items for the social market - from tringo to slots to dance machines.

There are no essentials in SL - all items are luxuries. However people only continue to come here if their "basic SL needs" are met - fun, social company, titilation etc
Solar Ixtab
Seawolf Marine
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 94
04-20-2005 06:53
I belive that SL's economic model is begining to resemble manorialism more than it does market captialism. The reasons for this are of course many-fold and covered by other threads here, so I won't go too deep into reiterating them.

I've reciently been reading the book, "The Cluetrain Manifesto", and it has brought me to understand some of the design faliability that SL suffers from. Primarly that SL is not a tekkie-wiki utopia (I hope you don't mind me stealing your word Prokofy :D), nor is it the WWW.

As Roberta Dalek just pointed out, the vast majority of SL residents are Broadcast Consumers, which for better or for worse have been educated by television for the last 50 and some years that their social status is determined by money, sex and material posessions. These people do not view SL as a creative canvas in which to paint their imagination on. For them SL is just another delevery system for visual decadance.

I might sound like I'm being hard here but on the contrary, these are the people that spend thousands of L$ per week on your clothes, your prim dicks and your hoochie hair. Success or failure in most commercial ventures lies in how well you are able to sway this increasingly jaded and numb section of the populace. In this sense SL is rather like that which occurs in the real world.

The "content elite" -- those that develop content and are of the tekkie-wiki subculture in which myself and my current social circle is probably most readily identified with is totally alien compared with the above. I don't go to clubs, I don't buy stuff, I don't play tringo and the last time I saw a prim dick, I figured I could spend a few minutes in a sandbox and make one, If I really needed to. This sector of residents differs greatly from real life in that there is very little support cost that goes into object creation. Prims are free and media upload cost is close to neglegible.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
04-20-2005 08:39
interesting post, solar, and you raise issues that marketers are increasingly facing with jaded and savvy viewers.

however, in terms of the topic at hand:

- in terms of infrastructure, we are obviously missing the legal and accounting standards & foundation which fosters collaboration and investor trust (repetitive, but I can't resist banging on this until LL starts presenting good ideas on this issue -- thinking this will be totally "private sector" ie member driven is naive)

- in terms of shopping, there are clear transportation efficiency differences. In RL, it take TIME to go from a shop in midtown to a shop in downtown. In SL, I can TP/fly from Umber to Bragg to Slootsville in a very short period of time. Malls lose transportation efficiencies, but they retain their "eyeballs" benefits (i.e. it can be expensive in terms of marketing resources to GET someone to a location, so once there, show them as much as possible -- although to this point malls need to be better organized)

agree with many of the other points listed here.
Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
04-20-2005 08:45
From: blaze Spinnaker
- There is no supply chain.
- An individual entrepeneur has big advantages over collaborative ventures.

I would contest these two points, though I feel Chip is on the right track with them.

On the first point, the "supply chain" still exists in a very real sense - it's just not as visible.

This stems from two sources. The first is real data storage - something that is rapidly becoming more of a non-issue as technology progresses. Regardless, you still need a finite supply of bandwidth, static storage, and active applications to keep things going at the very core.

Second, the production of actual virtual goods typically forms a supply chain of human capital. For example, in traditional 3D design, many companies make clear distinctions between the roles of "3D Artist," "Texture Artist," and "Animator." All three may easily work on the same finished product in very different stages of development, but all three roles may also be taken on by a single individual. I'm sure Chip is aware of this.

In Second Life, we're seeing very much of the latter now. As things progress, that may not be the case.

Next, on the advantages of individuals over a large group, I must again disagree. I feel that Second Life enhances the power of the individual, but still falls short of giving the individual a clear advantage over a well-managed group of people. Again, we're seeing more of the former now than the latter.

---

As to "adding my own:"

- Second Life consumerism is based largely on the buying power of the US Dollar and Linden Dollar. It generates the power of its "monopoly money" due to the disposable nature of real-world income.
- Overhead is extremely low in Second Life (similar to Chip's "No supply chain";).
- "Natural" markets for certain goods are as transient as their code and demand.
- A disproportionate number of economies of scale exist in Second Life, due to its relative infancy.
- Barriers to Market Entry are typically very low

I also think Solar has some very good points.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
04-20-2005 09:03
i'm going to venture to speak for chip and say that when he meant "no supply chain" he wasn't really referring to a "production chain" as you describe, but the real world supply chain which is all about physically bringing parts to a manufacturer, and products to market (inventory, warehousing, shipping, putting on the store shelf, etc)

some RL industries have little to no supply chain as well -- for example, salesforce.com has no physical supply chain in delivering their products. Apple's iTunes is another example.


Also, on individual versus collab, Chip was saying that without better tools to enable collaboration and group business ventures, there are significant challenges groups face that individuals inherantly bypass right now.

(chip, if i've misprepresented you, gimme a smack and I'll take my whupping with equanimity)
Shack Dougall
self become: Object new
Join date: 9 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,028
04-20-2005 09:06
From: Prokofy Neva
Do you mean to say SL and Florida? or RL? What is FL?


FL is First Life. I tend to use RL as my term of choice, but FL is popular and probably more accurate.
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Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
04-20-2005 09:11
From: Forseti Svarog
i'm going to venture to speak for chip and say that when he meant "no supply chain" he wasn't really referring to a "production chain" as you describe, but the real world supply chain which is all about physically bringing products to market (inventory, warehousing, shipping, putting on the store shelf, etc)

Yeah, I figured as much - which is why I disagree. There's still storage space managed by someone, for example, just as the argument can be made that supply chains exist virtually.

I think it's safe to say, for now, that the supply chain is simply ephemeral to the end user.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-20-2005 09:15
What Forseti said :) You pretty well nailed it. You make good points Jeffrey, but I was talking more of the experience of the business owner in SL and not of the infrastructure provided by LL.

Edit: As for your expample of division of labor in 3d production, this is true, but even in the real world it can be more of a hinderance than a benefit. I'm a one man shop animation company. I can't match the complexity of work that a studio can do with dedicated specialists, but I make a lot more money for a lot less work than those salaried specialists do. I just have to animate shiny corporate logos instead of spaceships and dinosaurs :)
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
04-20-2005 09:19
Jeffrey i'm intrigued by your points. Do you have time to elaborate?

I see the cost of storage/bandwith as an underlying cost of production within SL, but one that is built into our monthly fees and thus currently hidden from the user. This may change of course.
Solar Ixtab
Seawolf Marine
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 94
04-20-2005 09:49
From: Forseti Svarog

- in terms of infrastructure, we are obviously missing the legal and accounting standards & foundation which fosters collaboration and investor trust (repetitive, but I can't resist banging on this until LL starts presenting good ideas on this issue -- thinking this will be totally "private sector" ie member driven is naive)


Its possible to create systems to perform these tasks with the current tools, but the design and operation of such systems is faulty at best, and unmaintainable by mere mortals.

From: someone

- in terms of shopping, there are clear transportation efficiency differences. In RL, it take TIME to go from a shop in midtown to a shop in downtown. In SL, I can TP/fly from Umber to Bragg to Slootsville in a very short period of time. Malls lose transportation efficiencies, but they retain their "eyeballs" benefits


Enter: Telehub Traps.

Actually, there's a technical basis behind this. I've talked with more than a few consumers (Residents when asked "What brought you to SL?" reply with "Shopping";), and quite often these residents don't happen to possess the latest and greatest computer or the fastest bandwidth available, often at or just over the minimum specs for SL. These people won't fly from Umber to say Luna, simply because they can't. Various problems with sim transition, teleporting, lagging to 0.5 fps, disconnections requiring relogging/rebooting, etc. means that these people don't generally roam too far beyond the telehubs (I'm sure there is a particular amount of impatience factor here as well). So in terms of "eyeballs", stuffing as much as possible around telehubs is a valid marketing strategy, particularly since most consumers have been conditioned to respond positivly to the inundation of commercial imagery.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
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04-20-2005 10:06
From: Solar Ixtab
particularly since most consumers have been conditioned to respond positivly to the inundation of commercial imagery.


although per your other post, we're also rapidly becoming conditioned to tune it out as well
Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
04-20-2005 10:44
In order of post time:

From: Chip Midnight
As for your expample of division of labor in 3d production, this is true, but even in the real world it can be more of a hinderance than a benefit. I'm a one man shop animation company. I can't match the complexity of work that a studio can do with dedicated specialists, but I make a lot more money for a lot less work than those salaried specialists do. I just have to animate shiny corporate logos instead of spaceships and dinosaurs :)

This is actually quite interesting to me, and something I might take up with you for debate at some time. I was under the impression that salaried professionals typically received higher job security and benefit-versus-cost in general... but then, this is not the current topic.

I can agree that labor divisions and specialization are a mixed bag, though. Like setting up a one-man shop, it has its own pros and cons. Again, for another time.

From: Forseti Svarog
Jeffrey, I'm intrigued by your points. Do you have time to elaborate?

I see the cost of storage/bandwidth as an underlying cost of production within SL, but one that is built into our monthly fees and thus currently hidden from the user. This may change of course.

* Very minor typo fixes for readability.

Sure. :)

If we're on the subject of real-world supply chains, my take on them is that they're presently, as you phrase it, a "hidden cost" to the user. This is due to the fact that Linden Labs currently maintains and subcontracts the code and the servers, allowing users to pay them one flat rate for services rendered.

However, let's clip to what will hopefully happen a year or three from now. Suppose we get to where Philip wishes things to be in that time:

/120/12/41442/2.html#post447952

From: Philip Linden
I'll speak for my own gut here, allowing that I'm sure this will be a long and interesting discussion in the years to come:

My intuition is that open source and open standards are the only way to go for SL long term - for us to reach the whole world in the way that the web has will probably only happen under this sort of model.

I don't think becoming more open would be a bad business move for LL, because there are so many central services that we can offer for a fair price - once SL goes to truly global scale those charges can create a very large and sustaining business.

Pragmatically, there are things that need to happen to make this possible:

We have to preserve some sort of system to protect the rights and permissions of content. This means that in some manner the servers must become untrusted - a 'man-in-the-middle' from a crypto perspective. Today, the SL servers are totally trusted - if you owned a server you could take all the money and copy all the objects of anyone who walked into it. I can imagine that long term you get a notice on entering insecure servers, and you can choose what objects and how much money you want to 'carry' when you go in. Coding this is going to be a big change, and lots of work.

Additionally, as also discussed here, we need to make the protocols between servers very simple, so that folks can start from scratch with server code if they like. HTTP got really widespread in part because it was really simple - you could write a basic server in a few hours. Ideally something like SL needs to be comparably simple - you should be able to write a 'hello world' server and connect it to the grid very easily.


Projects like OSMP are great, and something that helps us understand what priority we should give to these changes. Ideally I'd like to see the metaverse get built as quickly as possible, which means that everyone is working on interoperable code and content. If big projects get underway that are challenging SL in scale and capability, it means that we are doing something wrong - not being open enough fast enough.

What would the supply chain and economy look like then?

Well, for starters, the supply chain would suddenly see all of those "hidden costs" come to the forefront. Details currently covered by Linden Labs - server space, bandwidth, connection fees, raw server and client code, etc - might suddenly become relevant. As previously discussed, the potential surge in real-world products sold via Second Life could easily take these as a direct cost of sales.

I see this use almost as the next step to PHP-based sales servers. Since there's real overhead involved there, it follows that an application built above this layer of standards would, too.

As for the economy, I doubt it would see much change beyond the type of products demanded, barriers to entry, and economies of scale. The Linden is so enmeshed with the dollar already that the conversion to pure USD or similar currency would not be extremely difficult. If anything, it would bring several people out of the denial that the Linden is a living currency because of these ties.
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Nashville Rambler
Pilgrim
Join date: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 51
"FL" means First Life, often called "RL" or "Real Life"
04-20-2005 12:24
From: Prokofy Neva
Do you mean to say SL and Florida? or RL? What is FL?[/QUOTE}

"FL" means First Life, often called "RL" or "Real Life"
Liberty Tesla
Perpetual Newbie
Join date: 1 Sep 2003
Posts: 173
04-20-2005 13:21
(1) No unit production cost; all costs are in design and marketing.
(2) For non-custom items, order fulfillment time is zero.
(3) Avatars don't *have* to buy anything, since they have no material needs.
(4) Contracts are essentially unenforceable.
(5) Tools for profit sharing (Groups) are crude, one-size-fits-all.
(6) There is no patent protection for inventions.

(1) and (2) increase the cost differential between custom work and 'off the rack' items to the point that the former is perceived as prohibitively expensive. So all manufactured goods are aimed at the mass market.

(2) and (3) increase the importance of impulse buying: thus location, signage, store design, display space, and simplicity of vendor design become supremely important.

(4) limits the service industry to pay-as-you-play services; in particular, it inhibits the growth of a financial services industry that could allocate capital to new enterprises.

(4) and (5) limit the growth of collaborative for-profit enterprises; private partnerships can only exist if high levels of personal trust have developed between prospective partners, and publicly held corporations are impossible.

(6) limits the rewards on scripting as a profession, either alone or (see above) as a collaborative effort with builders and texturers.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-20-2005 13:37
From: Jeffrey Gomez
This is actually quite interesting to me, and something I might take up with you for debate at some time. I was under the impression that salaried professionals typically received higher job security and benefit-versus-cost in general... but then, this is not the current topic.


Any time :)
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Nashville Rambler
Pilgrim
Join date: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 51
04-20-2005 16:17
From: Solar Ixtab
Its possible to create systems to perform these tasks with the current tools, but the design and operation of such systems is faulty at best, and unmaintainable by mere mortals.


From: someone
Enter: Telehub Traps.
((S)ome) residents don't happen to possess the latest and greatest computer or the fastest bandwidth available, often at or just over the minimum specs for SL. These people won't fly from Umber to say Luna, simply because they can't.


There are *so very* many options regarding video settings, that it should be possible for someone with the minimum requirement system to move reasonably quickly, if not quite as beautifully.

As an example, I have a (near) minimum system, As well as a Athalon 64 3000, 1G RAM Radeon 9600 system. By adjusting video settings, I can make them synch-up.

I have been planning on a new, Athalon 4000, 4G RAM, Athalon 800 system soon. I'm kinda anxious to see if I can adjust the video settings to that my min(ish) system can keep up with that. newest (for me) one.
Nashville Rambler
Pilgrim
Join date: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 51
04-20-2005 16:36
From: Liberty Tesla

(1) No unit production cost; all costs are in design and marketing.
(2) For non-custom items, order fulfillment time is zero.
(3) Avatars don't *have* to buy anything, since they have no material needs.
(4) Contracts are essentially unenforceable.
(5) Tools for profit sharing (Groups) are crude, one-size-fits-all.
(6) There is no patent protection for inventions.

(4) and (5) limit the growth of collaborative for-profit enterprises; private partnerships can only exist if high levels of personal trust have developed between prospective partners, and publicly held corporations are impossible.

(6) limits the rewards on scripting as a profession, either alone or (see above) as a collaborative effort with builders and texturers.



Public corporations:
Is there *No One* among the ~10,000 active participants that folks can agree to trust?!
If there is, that person can be the a banker for many corporations. You might want to pay them something significant for their trouble.


Copyrights:
SL has good IP security. Could you please provide more details on why you believe that IP is an issue?
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