Dwellfarers

I started a group with the following goals:

1. To campaign for the Lindens to publish their formula for the allocation of dwell, i.e. to explain how dwell is calculated and awarded.

2. To promote discussion of the dwell system, whether to keep it "as is" or reform it.

3. To monitor developments regarding the dwell system.

Join for free by going to "groups" in-game and if you'd like to become an officer and come to meetings, IM me and you, too, can get the fabulous title of Dwellfare Queen : )

I would start a thread under Group Forums but it is not intuitive how you start one, there's no obvious "new thread" button except inside the groups.

Profoky, I think Philip promised that he was going to do precisely this.

However, I 100% support your request and send me an invite and I will certainly join such a group.

He promised...but that was back on 23 November and it hasn't happened yet...and I think it is beneficial not only to push for publication of the formula, but to generate discussion about either status quo or reform.

I'll IM you but I find so often that doesn't work, so the group is open, you just hunt for it in "find" and just join it automatically.

Not much, but it is something..

I'm glad this was said by Mr. Linden, and it sounds like bits and pieces of what's been said before, and it's great it has been said by an authoritative Linden now.

But it's partly in not-so-easy game-dev eco-speak, and leaves a number of questions.

Yes, we understand we have to stay 5 minutes at a place, and 4 minutes at a place counts for nothing. But what's hard to understand is whether it is then worth it at all to stay 20 minutes at a place or 60 minutes at a place. If I go to 3 places in an evening, and have 1 point of dwell to spend on them, it will be divided up 3 ways obviously. But will factors like 15 or 30 minutes really make a difference? Will I extend that .33 at all if I double my minutes on a lot, or is it pointless?

This statement is important: "Parcels owned by the resident (or group) are counted as if they were the same parcel. The user's 1 point is then evenly divided between those parcels". It sounds as if it means that yes, you can generate dwell for yourself just by standing on your land. This is one of the most argued points. Older players constantly chuckle knowingly at newbie notions that standing on their own land will help them. Yet Linden's statement seems to say that! Please just answer yes or no definitively: do you or do you not generate dwell on your own land standing on it yourself for five minutes???

I suspect that what is meant, however, is that IF you are in a group owning group land, if you stand on your own land, you generate dwell for yourself and all your friends in the group. It gets split up quite a bit that way, but it's still yours just for standing on your own land more than 5 minutes. It means that like the Sims Online, it's worth just logging into your own account every day at least 5 minutes and standing there. However, if you are a go-it-aloner standing on your land with no group, don't bother.

It's this statement that seems so perplexing and unfair: "if I only spent 5 minutes online and spent all of it on resident A's land, she would receive 1 point from me. Those raw point totals are what is reported in the find window."

Why the raw points with no extention in time? Thus, if I partied at clubs or participated hard in events for 3 hours online, and visited 6 places, in a sense I'd be stiffing them. I'd be better off just logging in for 5 minutes, picking one of those many clubs/events, and giving them my whole point and getting the hell offline, then working my way methodically down my whole list of clubs/groups/events and granting them my big one point of dwell per day, rather than piddling it away among 6 people every day. We'd all be better off for it. That's what it certainly sounds like. It's as if the extention of dwell in time has no meaning whatsoever, and it makes no sense to develop events for an hour except insofar as it enables lots of people to fly in and out all the time, hopefully throwing you part of their dwell points.

That just seems nuts. How can you provide incentive to people to have interesting, riveting activity if you don't reward their *staying on a lot*? This system sounds like it *punishes you for variety*. Stay in your own clique and grant your own little group your dwell in one place every day, don't diversify.

Finally, there's this contorted statement -- contorted to those who aren't math whizes and don't really understand game-dev-eco-speak: "we normalize the total against the total amount of L$ we are giving away that day and give out the money proportionately."

Ermmm HOW do we normalize the total? With *what figures or formulas*? And WHY do you do that? And why peg it to that one day? Why not peg it to 5 days, as they do in TSO, so there's an averaging out of the visitor points over good and bad days? Or why not just on Tuesdays, which is stipend day?

And finally, what the heck is that negative debiting out of the group accounts every day??? Is this my dwell I've generated over to other people, sucking down my own account? But I thought the dwell generated out positively to others every day, and didn't draw down from my own stock. Or it is it just the debiting out of the dwell total for that day among the group members? If I see a negative day after day caused because I visited so many other people, then you're going to push me back to standing AFK on my lot again and hoping my little cliques and clacques will come give me their one dwell for the day and poof after 5 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I need to get a life...a second life...

You can give group owned dwell but on your own land no dwell is calculated for the owner.

Talen, let's say you are the founder of a group and you purchased land for the group. You don't own land, you just contribute allocations of tier to the group. You stand on that group land so that all the people in the group get the dwell, including yourself, correct?

I believe that is correct, yes.

If you are standing on land deeded to a group, it is not your land - it is the group's land. For example, in my mall the time that I or any of my vendors spend there is counted towards dwell. As the only officer, I have complete control over the land - but it is not mine, per se.

Conversely, where I have my apartments, my tenants generate dwell, but I do not. This is because the land is mine. It is not deeded to the group, just set to the group.

Again, you seem to be confusing yourself with the group. The fact that you are in a group, or have donated tier to a group, or previously owned land which is now deeded to a group doesn't generate any financial liability for you except as specified below:

A group debit is generated when a group spends more money than it brings in. There aren't many ways a group can spend money - off the top of my head, all I can think of is the $30/week listing fee for being in the Places directory. If a group owns many different parcels, all listed in the directory, and those parcels do not generate $30/week in dwell income each, then yes - there will be a group debit.

Where you dwell, how long you dwell, and the number of places you dwell does not debit any money from your account. Everyone has a dwell point per day, and it gets given out to the places they spend more than five minutes at, in the proportion to the time they spend at each place. Whatever the total time they spend online. It seems quite clear to me - I'm not sure where the confusion is.

And yes, I do think you're spending too much effort worrying about this. I've not played TSO but it sounds like this is far more important there than it is here. Dwell is a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of income made by most people in Second Life. For example, yesterday I won a total of about $500 playing Bingo, I sold items totaling about $250, and I took in rent of about $350 from my apartment renters. I also ran a class for which I received $500.

The total dwell money I received from my apartment tenants dwelling, and the students who attended my class - a whopping $40!!!!!

So - daily income, $1640. Of which 2.5% was due to dwell. I have far more important things to worry about than where I should be spreading my dwell point each day!

You need to already have a group in-world with at least 15 members. Then you ask a Linden (I think Jeska handles this now) and ask for the forum to be created.

"Again, you seem to be confusing yourself with the group."

No, but if I'm a part-owner, a member of the group, when I stand on that land I consider it part-mine, not some hypothetical group in the air, because after all, I'm paying part of the tier allocation on it and/or putting in my free 512. So I sure as hell will say "mine" about something that is mine, too.

"A group debit is generated when a group spends more money than it brings in. There aren't many ways a group can spend money - off the top of my head, all I can think of is the $30/week listing fee for being in the Places directory."

Lisse, look at the groups "money" page and you'll see this can't possibly be the case -- look at a wide variety of groups, not just your own, familiar group. The debits aren't 30, or multiples of 30 for multiple parcels, let say, but have funny figures like -217 or -67. I've checked by asking around about this. It's the oddest thing. What the hell is it? Maybe I will have to screenshot it and send it to the Lindens. It's been suggested that when the figure debits out to pay off the whole group, that shows as a negative, let's say 217 came in, -217 goes out to pay the group. But the figures don't match, so it's hard to figure what's up. If it's not a real debit, it sure behaves like a debit, leaving small amounts, it's just not clear what's up.

"Where you dwell, how long you dwell, and the number of places you dwell does not debit any money from your account."

OK, but you can see that I asked this question not because I'm an idiot who thinks that play money is debited from my account, but because I'm looking at actual hard, odd, numbers on my screen with negative signs in front of them and can't figure out where they come from if they are NOT $30.

"Everyone has a dwell point per day, and it gets given out to the places they spend more than five minutes at, in the proportion to the time they spend at each place. Whatever the total time they spend online. It seems quite clear to me - I'm not sure where the confusion is."

Don't confuse disagreement with how a system works with misunderstanding how it works, because what I'm doing is asking the question to try to generate possible logical, rational answers for it. Because it's not fair -- at least not fair to the customers who are supposed to be celebrated content-generators. To log in for 5 minutes and grant an entire point used to calculate an entire dollar (we don't know the formula!) means that it is utterly pointless to log in and go to 5 clubs for 5 hours, because they get 1/5 of your point, and that dilutes it -- but once again, duh, *we don't know the formula*.

"And yes, I do think you're spending too much effort worrying about this. I've not played TSO but it sounds like this is far more important there than it is here. Dwell is a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of income made by most people in Second Life. For example, yesterday I won a total of about $500 playing Bingo, I sold items totaling about $250, and I took in rent of about $350 from my apartment renters. I also ran a class for which I received $500. The total dwell money I received from my apartment tenants dwelling, and the students who attended my class - a whopping $40!!!!!"

OK, Lisse, you've already made it clear hear on the forums when dissing my idea of galvanized purple steel roads (said as a mere hypothetical!) that you regard yourself as a superior being. That's fine (*bows and worships TSO-style*). I realize I'm an inferior TSO refugee and no, I'm not a superior being. I'm a newbie. I'm trying to find my way through the game. I have questions, and I want to answer them. I don't want to play goddang bingo, which I can play in my local parish hall in RL. In the first 30 days of the game, I'm hardly likely to create anything that I could sell, nor am I going to try apartmental rental on day one. That's why as a newbie, I'm looking closely at the income-generating activities the game does have to offer in 30-60 day initial periods, because there's no preservers or robot jobs.

I want to see what else is out there, and whether the little dribble that dwell brings in is even worth bothering with, and whether it's even worth fooling around with events, when they don't bring in more than that whopping $40 or $100 (as someone else said). IOW, I want to understand whether they should be treated as a mere icing on the cake, a little pin money put in, or something worth really bothering with, even for the sake of say $100 a day -- again, as a newbie. That's $3,000 a month, and that's $12 on the GOM now. That pays for an account and then some. Every little bit adds up when you're new and haven't become a spectacular designer/architect/general omniscent being such as yourself.

I understand I'm supposed to be withered with scorn, and get off my butt and stop worrying about dwell points for our land or other people's land, and make some fabulous um piece of jewelry or something....but if I can't do that, I need money...money to rent YOUR apartment and buy YOUR fabulous thing. So where will I get that if I don't want to be an escort?

"So - daily income, $1640. Of which 2.5% was due to dwell. I have far more important things to worry about than where I should be spreading my dwell point each day!"

Again, I'm so, so glad for you. But this dwell issue is a curiosity for me, not something I'm really letting drive my SL life, and as I said, every little bit helps. I also see the top clubs with something like 20,000 in dwell day after day and I figure they bother with daily events because it's giving them SOMETHING, not just casino walk-ins.

And in general, I'd suggest less condescention and arrogance regarding dwell, and your superior indifference to it. The idea is to discuss it, and eliminate it, if it is stupid and a waste of time -- I can't imagine why the Lindens set up a complicated Rube-Goldberg type system to create something that gives you only $40 a day -- or suggest that it be changed to really be increased as a source of revenue. Why should the Lindens spend on administrative time for their staff culling through the grant applications for events, when they could vastly increase dwell payout and let a good event with sustained interest get paid by democratic player votes for dwell instead of their bureaucratic socialism?

Do you want the game to be populated by only 17,000 mainly geeky kickass designers who just sell to each other and get bored and move on? Or do you want it to open up to the hoi polloi, which will come crashing into your world from places like TSO, bringing with them cheap mediocre tastes and habits including gaming the dwell -- but also, Lisse, and this is the part you need to listen to, CUSTOMERS. CUSTOMERS who buy your stuff, rent your apartments, and come to your lectures.

Oh, of course you don't want that! *But your game company does*. How else did you think they'd get a million players coming in the door?

I'm beginning to think you don't like me, Profoky Seriously, I do suffer from a social learning disorder which I've been told can make me appear arrogant or standoffish even when I am trying to be friendly and helpful (which I was here). I'm so sorry you took it the wrong way.

That said, I'll go over your points one by one in my next post, in case they help you or anyone else who might be interested in the importance of dwell.

However, group dwell is distributed to all members of a group, even if they have never donated tier or deeded land to it. For example, if a club were to build on group-deeded land and then hand out club memberships to that group to all its regular attendees, those club-goers would share in the dwell. (Of course, this rarely happens in SL, where club land is held by one group with a few club owners, and club memberships are in another group that does not hold land)

I really didn't mean anything derogatory by saying that group land isn't your land - I was trying to correct what I saw as a technical misunderstanding you had.



Ah, okay. I think I can clear this up.

Let's say your group has five members. On one day, the dwell on your land brings in $42. At midnight, this is distributed to all members, but because we don't have fractional Linden dollars, the money will look like this:

Income: $42
Debits: -$40
Balance $2

And each of those five members will have in their own personal account that day:

Group Dividend: $8

Now the next day, the $2 balance will be added to the dwell that came in that day, and again, the debit will be the closest number divisible by 5 that is lower than the new balance. Group balances are always distributed to the group members each day as much as possible, while keeping within the "everyone gets the same amout, no fractional L$s" restriction.



I really didn't mean to imply you were an idiot. I honestly thought I was helping clear up a misunderstanding you had. You seemed to think that might be the case.



To be absolutely honest with you, I did misread your post as saying that you did not understand how the system worked. I failed to read into it that you were disagreeing with the system. As I said above, I do have a social learning disorder, and it is hard for me to discren the underlying emotions of words at times. My apologies again.



Profoky, you might want to air your disagreements and suggestions in the Feature Suggestions or Feature Feedback forums, where the Lindens are conducting active discussions on how dwell and ratings might be improved to be more fair to everyone.



As the Lindens have said from time to time, there cannot be an exact formula to convert dwell points to L$s because the dwell pot amount varies from night to night. I know that you understand the points distribution formula - here's my understanding of how that is converted to cash:

Each day, the total flow of L$s in and out of the whole world is analyzed, and a total amount of dwell payments is calculated that will keep the economy balanced. It will depend on how much money is also being given out in stipends, bonuses and event support. Now, let's say that amount for dwell payments is $4,000 - for everyone. That is divided by the total of everyone's dwell points for that day, and that is the L$/point amount that will be paid the next morning. So if a total of 8,000 people logged in that day for at least 5 minutes on one lot of land, then the dwell points would total 8,000 and everyone would get $L0.5 per point of dwell. I'm sure there's rounding in there somewhere that shifts things one way or the other, but I'm 90% certain this is how it works. Perhaps Cory can say if I'm off-track or not, if he drops by this thread?



Okay, gloves off for a sec - I see the above as a personal attack, and I apologize for anything I've done previously to provoke it. However, I do feel at liberty now to hit back a little - you're not a newbie! You just bought a whole goddam SIM today, for crying out loud!!!! You own far, far more land that I do, or ever will!!!! If you have that much money to put into Second Life while still being so new that dwell is the only possible income avenue you have, you can buy far, far more L$s on GOM or IGE with that money that you'll ever get dwelling on your land! You've mentioned signing up the maximum alt accounts you can have in order to earn more dwell - how long would it take to earn US$50 (L$12,000) in dwell? FOREVER!



Ah, you've never been to bingo, have you It's a wonderful experience. I've given and gotten more deserving rates and made more friends and had more fun there than I ever have dancing in sync with a bunch of silent strangers in a club. Without attending bingo, I'd not have met the people that gave me the skills to create, or made the social connections to be able to won and rent mall space or apartments. Bingo is the best!



Hm, well I have to say that I would consider dwell income as something to consider after several months in the game - not in the first 30-60 days! I'll have to preface this as my own personal experience, and others may vary entirely, but this is how my own income "graduation" went:

First week: Income from attending Chaos Theory Gaming 'Free Money' events and a little gambling.
Weeks 2-4: Very small income from selling low prim furniture and simple boxed houses.
Weeks 5-8: Some income from renting space in the mall I built on 1024m2 of land.
Weeks 9-12: The occasional Show and Tell prize, or AV contest win, building comissions.
Weeks 12-20: Some income from land deals, buying at auction in US$s and selling in-world for L$s.
Weeks 20-30: Apartment rental income, real estate agent services, held Linden-supported Mentor, Instructor and contest events.

And that brings me up to the present. I'm still not thinking of dwell as a valid income source.



Have a contest at your event, and you will get a minimum of L$250 in Linden support money. Otherwise, have events because they are fun for you, not for the dwell!



I'm by no means spectacular at any of those things. L$100 a day is easier to make by selling simple creations - yes, even a week old newbie can make lovely items - or attending events for prizes, or free money balls - or holding a trivia event for 30 minutes at Stage 4 which will get you L$500 and your prize money outgoings reimbursed. You don't need to own land to do any of these things, and if you do, the the dwell from you and your friends being social in your home is just an extra. If you attend enough events and meet enough people, you can easily make $750/week in incremental bonus on Tuesdays right from week one - and that more than pays for your account.



If you're worrying about dwell points, you own a fair amount of land and won't be renting any apartments, now, will you See above for money generation ideas. Or better still, ask on Live Help for a copy of the "how to make money in SL" notecard.



Most club owners I've spoken to have said their experience is that the cost of running the club far outweighs any dwell income. Getting US$ Developer awards for being in the top dwell figures for the month helps them a little, but the average player isn't going to qualify for that. The clubs that don't close after a month tend to stay open because the owners enjoy running them, or get a cut from the escorts, or sell vendor spaced in the entryway, or.... not from dwell.



And again, I'm very sorry I came off that way. I was sincerely trying to help. I'm not indifferent to it - I have come to realize it's true value, though - the hard way. I had to learn about how groups work, and how dwell works by trial and error. I was hoping to prevent you from making the expensive mistakes I made early on.




This can probably be answered with more authority in the Feature Suggestions forum, by players who were around when Voting Stations were in operation. I am not old enough in-game to be qualified to answer.



Yes, and that is why I try to help new people in this world by pointing out the dwell is by far the most inefficient way for them to be making their initial income. I want them to buy my stuff so they can be inspired to make and sell their own one day. I want them to rent my apartments so they come to love the area and soon go buy their First Land nearby and leave renting behind. I want them to come to my classes so they will learn the skills to earn their own living in their Second Life.

(Um, yes I do....)

MY game company???!!! Oh, if only....

*blink* did I just spend over an hour replying to that? Good grief....

For those who are skimming the really long posts, here's a summary of the thread:

Prokofy: Is dwell worth working towards?

Lisse: Nope.

Prokofy: How dare you, a superior being, diss my idea that dwell is worth working towards! And dwell is not fair! And they won't us how dwell works! And I'm not an idiot! I'm new and can't make money any other way!

Lisse: Sorry. And you're new, and you're worried you're not making enough money? And you just bought a whole goddam mainland SIM??!! Well, dwell is still not worth it. Try bingo.

When people begin taking an hour to answer a post, it usually has deteriorated quite a bit. But let's try to salvage this discussion because it's an important one, and it really isn't personal. I really appreciate your thoughtful answer, and your willingness to apologize and say that you didn't mean anything derogatory. I didn't mean any insult, either; all I was trying to do was speak on behalf a kind of class of people -- newbies from other games -- to another class of people -- seasoned artisans who have arranged their income nicely and see dwelling as foolish. Of course, I have no authority to speak on behalf of this class, but I simply represent what I see as some of the issues.

I also want to thank you for being the first person to explain to me what the heck is that negative number in my money account in the groups. I had heard that it might be the daily debit of the dwell going out to the members, but I hadn't realized that it left fractions like that. Thank you, thank you. However, I wonder why, when this question has been asked repeatedly, there isn't a sticky in announcements that explains once and for all what the deal is with this dwell.

It's true that I didn't understand how this system worked, having heard conflicting points of view about it, none of them seemingly authoritative, but after blake posted Cory Linden's Town Hall statement, as short as it was, I could see the basic principles. That should have been obvious. So what I did was then ask a lot of questions to see what people would say.

With or without any kind of social learning disorder, people can find it very hard to communicate on forums and games, and it's always the case that the medium provides an excessive display of rhetoric and emotion that would never be present in RL.

I will definitely go to the features section, I guess I got trained from TSO to stop wasting my time on such sections because the devs never replied there or seemed to hear anything on it, but I realize SL has more responsiveness.

Now, let's look at this satement: "As the Lindens have said from time to time, there cannot be an exact formula to convert dwell points to L$s because the dwell pot amount varies from night to night."

Baloney, I say. Of *course* they already have an exact formula! Some kind of mathematical formula and computer program that runs this system. Don't tell me that Lindens stay up late at night manually computing this with their spreadsheets and calculators on their desks. They have some kind of formula, that regardless of the events in the world in terms of size of population and activity, performs its functions. It will go through its paces, no? If x=y, then y does this, z does that. The numbers that plug into it might be different, like size of population or something, but that shouldn't change their formula. And it is that formula that I believe they should publish, just as TSO publishes their visitor points system, which is similar.

I looked at at your statement about the total flow of Lindens and the analysis, and all that's understood, but my question still stands: why have a system where I can log on 5 minutes and award my dwell point to one club or to my own group, instead of encouraging me to stay in the world and spread my point out over 5 clubs for 5 hours? Now, maybe, if anything, if there is a cost center for the Lindens in terms of lots of event-grants paid out in a night, they have to short us on dwell? I mean, who knows how it works? *Because we don't have the formula given from the horse's mouth.*

Dwell is finite, and it gets split up, and of course someone who has reeled in 5 dwellers to his club giving their 1/5 of a point is ahead one point. But it still seems to me that he is being punished for having five dwellers with 1/5 a point each, giving him one point, whereas I can just log my sim on and have him sit on our group property and do nothing and get 1 point, too, without any 5 visitors. I'm not a math whiz, so there must be something I'm not understanding about this.

Now, let's move on to the issue of "personal attacks," although keeping in the spirit of understanding, apology, tolerance, and hewing to a generic problem in the game. For one, I detect a bit of an "eat-the-rich" phenom -- it's not personal -- it a statement like "You just bought a whole goddam SIM today, for crying out loud!!!"

So? What, that doesn't give me the right to criticize anything? It doesn't give me the right to pinch pennies so to speak, and worry about dwell? After all, the reason I bought 58,000 acres plus (actually not a whole sim) is because *I can*. *It's allowed*. It's allowed both to fuss about dwell and who I'm awarding it to, and also fuss about whether I should log on my guy and have him sit and do nothing on those days on our club or somebody else's clubs on those days I'm busy with work in the other window, and can't do the game. This was a common TSO practice, so you'll forgive me. But it was nice to feel that given all the expenses of running events, buying clothes, etc. that I could be mitigating them just even a tiny bit by logging in.

I remember once the much-maligned Catherine Cotton was attacked in the forum because she priced her land in a certain way viewed as too high by others, or she bought an island-type property in Ross. So? Without knowing any of her issues or the forum's issues intimately, I'd have to agree with her statement: "What, just because I criticize land barons, I have to take a vow of poverty?" And in that spirit I say, what, just because I bought land, I have to stop caring about pinching pennies on dwell and arguing about dwell? I think we all should push hard against the limits of the game or it won't grow.

And when you're new, even if you buy a chunk of land, you don't have that fulsome source of revenue streams that you talk about, and dwell is important. As for signing up the maximum accounts to earn dwell, I don't think that's a reasonable avenue precisely because of your point about the return-on-investment. You wouldn't make back even the cost of the accounts, much less the cost of having to clothe and keep active those avatars in the game. It's not worth it, but if you do have them, you might as well at least keep them from being too much of an extra mouth to feed by letting them generate some dwell.

I appreciate what you've said about bingo. I have a vision of Roseanne at bingo, remember that episode LOL? I hear you about ratings and socialization and I'm ready to revise my impression of bingo at some point. But I agree with Grimmie, that guy who was expelled from the game and described his experience. On day one, he came into this world, full of opportunities and all sorts of wild things like sky-diving or particles exploding or rollercoasters or droids that follow you around...and he says..."and the kids are playing bingo?" That's exactly my experience. I came into the world as Phil Linden happened to be starting a town meeting, and I was so stunned that a game devoloper would do that (I had heard they did it, but didn't realize it was so often) that I ran to a repeater and it happened to be a bingo lot. So I went from the sublime to the ridiculous, so to speak, that's all. My experience of clubs is that they aren't so silent, people talk to you and rate you a lot, and they're worth going to for that reason, although they're laggy. Bingo is a matter of taste. There are other ways to achieve those values you indicate.

Looking at your income graduation chart, I'd have say "stop right there at weeks 2-4". I don't see how I could get any income from selling low-prim furniture. To whom? People don't buy a lot of furniture -- you don't need it -- and there is so much out there, including for free, or for only $10, that newbies don't need to sell sticks to each other, they can get better. Ditto the simple boxed houses -- I've seen people who are talented sell those even being new, but you are in a hugely competitve world and it doesn't make sense to stand on the corner selling boxed houses you hollowed out of one prim because you're not experienced in the creation tools.

If you got 1024 of land on week 5, I'd have to say that was brave of you, and you must have done without cool sneakers, jackets, and walking around money spent at casinos. As for prizes, I was led to believe that could be a real avenue for income when I won a few in the flush of newbiehood, but then it got a lot, lot harder, and now I go back to dwelling AFK rather than spending 2 hours in a club not winning a contest and getting just $8 from the money ball. Why? Because I can do work in the other window.

Now let's look at the institution of Linden support. This is highly troubling to me. I can't believe it will last, for one. It's a labour-intensive system, that requires staff to cull through applications manually and respond. It is slow, and days -- weeks? -- after the event you still haven't gotten your award. It's too much paperwork for staff that could be deployed developing the game itself or handling customer service on all kinds of bug and technical issues. And Philip Linden himself said all these hand-outs that amount to welfare are really only "starter fluid" for the economy and that implies they'll end it when they feel the economy is more self-supporting. It's a troubling system not only because it has all the negative features of welfare systems that cause people to loaf and collect payouts, but because it's gamed and exploited. Elsewhere on the forum you can read about how people game out contests, getting 3 of their friends together, calling it an event, awarding first one friend, then another. Apparently there isn't enough of a public sentiment against such gaming, and gaming a game is itself a fun game for many. But it is something the Lindens can't go on supporting for ever.

You say newbies can earn $100 a day by making and selling simple creations. I'm baffled by that. You have to be talented, end of story. The competition is high, the market is saturated. It's not viable. Erm, I don't know anybody who's beating a path to my door to buy my leopardskin men's briefs that look like the ones in TSO : D That's why I suggested ideas like making work crews to undo ugly roads or to demarcate new sims. The Lindens should put all these loafers to work instead of paying them to stand around and be fabulous. It will inspire more valuation of money and time.

I really think the system would benefit from genuinely democratic dwell-votes increased so that event planners or top designers were rewarded by presence on their lots, rather than make the Lindens shuffle paperwork to hand out grants. I'm well aware of the potential for gaming this, as they did in TSO, by babysitting lots with multiple accounts, flash-mobbing lots using Yahoo messenger, paying people to sit on lots, etc. But even so, the people who had the most interesting events and contests or efficient work on their lots still came out on top more persistently. The others were a flash in the pan, and they got bored anyway. So I'm confident if you give people the opportunity to vote with their feet, rather than apply for payouts, there will be a more democratic and more valued system.

"Most club owners I've spoken to have said their experience is that the cost of running the club far outweighs any dwell income. Getting US$ Developer awards for being in the top dwell figures for the month helps them a little, but the average player isn't going to qualify for that. The clubs that don't close after a month tend to stay open because the owners enjoy running them, or get a cut from the escorts, or sell vendor spaced in the entryway, or.... not from dwell."

This is depressing. And, I think both of us have overlooked the chief by-product and benefit of dwell: the ratings system. Even if the dollar amount sucks, getting a lot of dwell puts you in the top 20 or top 100 choices, so that people looking for events find you, and go to visit you more. Then you have the foot traffic for your vendors and casinos. It's depressing to think we can only have a casino-run economy, like some kind of poor Indian reservation...and making it rich only by exploiting escorts? This is just sad...

I'm glad you've passed on your knowledge, that's the best part of this game. You've more than made your point that dwell is not worth bothering with if you have even a modicum of talent to sell items or the patience to do things like renting apartments. I personally don't understand why anyone would rent when they have their 512, and really, in a game where you could perch anywhere and not be rained on, why do you need a home?

"I try to help new people in this world by pointing out the dwell is by far the most inefficient way for them to be making their initial income. I want them to buy my stuff so they can be inspired to make and sell their own one day. I want them to rent my apartments so they come to love the area and soon go buy their First Land nearby and leave renting behind. I want them to come to my classes so they will learn the skills to earn their own living in their Second Life."

I appreciate the spirit in which you have made all these points and look forward to continuing the discussion.

*Blinks at the length of this post.* But it only took 15 minutes because I type fast LOL.

I don't understand. I thought that what the newbies need to learn -- from the old hands -- is that dependency on dwell for an income is a sucker's game.

I thought that's what Lisse told you, but you threw out these comments about a superior being gracing you with arrogance or something.



I think you have a lot to unlearn from your TSO days. I have read over some of your posts here and on your blog, and it sounds like your primary complaint against anything on Second Life is "but it's not the way it is on TSO."



You probably should ask the Lindens that, don'tcha think? It seems to me that instead of sitting around gnashing your teeth (while snarling at Lisse) about something, you could just take to the people who haven't told you what you want to know.

It may be that they have a reasonable reason for doing this. It could be that it IS pretty arbitrary. It could be some sort of intellectual property. I dunno. Ask and find out. Getting annoyed about it won't help anyone, will it?



I'm confused, is Lisse a Superior Being today, or is she someone who hates the rich?

You adopt the pose of "I'm a newbie!" whenever it fits you, but then you are willing to sink thousands of dollars of RL money into buying a sim, which is honestly not a standard newbie activity.

For someone who doesn't even understand how dwell works, I'm both surprised and amused that you are then willing to make such a big commitment in terms of cold hard cash. I wouldn't buy real estate in real life if I was freaked out by the property tax system. I'd understand it first.

It just seems incongruous to claim to be speaking for a vast class of clueless newbies and then turn around and do something which clearly establishes that you are not a typical newbie on the game. The average newbie doesn't rush out and spend big bucks on land.



Well, the problem is that it doesn't work that way, and your response upon being told this seemed to be to shoot the messenger.

Unless by "a tiny bit" you mean "so miniscule that people who have been here a while don't look to it as anything other than a pittance."

Keeping the window open while you're working on another application isn't going to make a dent in your costs. Experienced players have figured this out so far.



I don't get what the problem is, unless this some sort of "eat the old" thing. Okay, sorry, that was a cheap shot. But it seems to me that your objection is to the specific type of contests/"gambling" offered regularly on Second Life.

To which it seems to me that you could just invent your own ideas about what to do, and get other people to show up and do those wild things. Is your problem with bingo just you don't like it, even if other people seem to?

Me, I haven't ever played bingo on Second Life. It doesn't interest me. But I'm not particularly annoyed that people are playing it and I'm not. I'll just do something else.



Okay, so now I'm confused by what you expect from Second Life. You describe a system with one way of making money in which you have to be competent/good/skilled in order to succeed financially -- wow, is that a shocker or something?

But on the other hand, you also write:



It seems you dislike the idea that people get money for being skilled (and get money in proportion to their skill), but you also bemoan a system based on casinos and prostitution. You also don't seem that keen on the handout of cash nor on the fees you can receive for running Linden-backed events.

So, um.

What DO you want people to do in Second Life for money?

I would guess -- based this thread -- that you feel that dwell should be the primary source of income on Second Life. Money is created, then, by simply existing in a certain location for a period of time. That's what you describe here:



You can institute a "democratic" system like this (it's not REALLY democratic) by asking for donations from people who attend events or charging a cover fee. This is really more of a capitalist system than a democratic one -- if you want a quality event, you'll pay for it. Sure, you can go elsewhere to a free event, but if your event is worth doing, maybe people will chip in L$10, L$100, whatever to support it. The people who are benefiting from the event -- the people who attend -- are the ones paying for it.

Why isn't this idea considered more on Second Life? Well, mostly because the current system seems to be working fine for a number of folks who have figured out what they want to get from it, and are getting it. You're not happy with it -- okay, so why not try a new paradigm?

Other than complaining that you aren't earning enough from people standing around on your land, I haven't read any of your ideas yet that seem to suggest any possible OTHER way that you think cash could be earned on Second Life. Lisse has been earning money in various ways, and I can already think of a half dozen other ways to generate income here.

But they work, and skill, and are thus harder than standing around while doing work in another window.

--Oraibi

PS: This didn't take me a hour to write either. BTW, your post was longer than Lisse's, so you really need to reconsider your opening paragraph there.

Yep, we all absorbed that lesson, but that's not the question anymore. The question is what the formula is, and whether it's worth even bothering a little bit with.


I think we're done with this round now.




Totally right. That's how refugees act. It's never like it was in the old country. I'm sure SLers would be the same way going to another game.



As I said, we're done with that round, there was no snarling really, and sure, you can "ask the Lindens" (er...where? In a message to Haney's overfilled inbox during a town hall meeting where your question won't be reviewed) but...the point is to have a discussion about it in general, not just "ask Mommy".



Oh, that would be silly if they made such a thing "intellectual property". The only reason they could have for not revealing the formula I suppose is to stop people from gaming it or abusing it. But I would submit they should make it abuse-proof.



As I said, I think we were done with that round, but if you want to fan the flames, you may. When somebody uses a term like "Superior Being" and says something like *worships* it should be obvious that it is said as a joke. And it was also clear that she isn't being singled out personally about this "eat-the-rich" attitude, but that it's a problem more generally, with attitudes toward wealth, capitalism, "land-baronism" and so on that one finds in this game and others, and it's an attitude that comes in part from American countercultural movements and in part from European leftism and in part from "Asian values" but whatever its provenance, it's OK to push back against it for the sake of discussion. If there was no such thing as venture capitalism and big business, you wouldn't have a game now, would you? Or did you think games like this get produced on a social democracy Sunday?



Well, the public record shows that the near-sim I purchased cost $1,501. That's not thousands of dollars, now is it? Hmm...gosh, did I make a mistake a think those were Linden dollars??? Oh, it's NOT a standard newbie activity??? Oops, I better go back to waiting for the money ball to spit on me again, hmmm? I suppose with that kind of underlying resentment against new people who come in the game and do what the game suggests, which is to buy land and develop it, there won't be many more coming, hmm? It's an experiment, and I'm happy to hear your comments, but I really don't see any grounds for resentment.


Well, I guess you didn't read the previous posts, hmmm? I more than understand how dwell works now, first thanks to my own research, second thanks to blake and his helpful citation of Cory Linden, and third thanks to Lisse, who thoughtfully -- FINALLY -- explained what that damn debit is out of my account every day! (and those who posted this question in other threads can now benefit from this information). Again, having questions about it and pushing the envelope on it isn't the same as being clueless.

And for the life of me, I don't see the connection between a real estate transaction and dwell, except in so far as a real estate decision might be banked on an estimation of dwell that migh incur on a property some day -- but we've all just been thoroughly informed that dwell is a sucker's game, hmm? (Except that as we've also pointed out, it leads to positioning on the top 20 or top 100 list, and that helps walk-in traffic to vendors, etc.)
Property tax? Oh, Lord, you don't have one of those in here do you?

.

Hehehe, there are newbies, and then there are newbies. Yesterday I was a clueless newbie parking my avatar on my group land, hoping in vain that I might earn $3 more a day -- when it didn't debit out 6. Now I'm enlightened thanks to Lisse about how that debiting system works. And lo and behold, I became a latifundista hehe. Isn't this game wonderful?



I dunno, go back and read what I put in answer to Lisse, no shooting at all that I can see.



I imagine those clubs that keep up their dwell, pittance though it may be, to keep themselves in the top hundred list, might look at this in a different light -- that's why I opened this discussion, and it would be interesting to hear from them.

Keeping the window open while you're working on another application isn't going to make a dent in your costs. Experienced players have figured this out so far.



All newbies are supposed to question why oldbies get to where they got, and how they are entitled to rest on their laurels. That's life. I haven't objected at all to the contests and gambling in SL, I organize such events myself.



Sure, the challenge to me is to come up with something better than bingo! Can I do it? Maybe not, given the needs fulfilled particularly by bingo for some people. What this is about is a meta-comment on the sad reality that the kids are playing bingo, as Grimmie said. Well go ask Grimmie. He gets it.



Annoyance isn't the word to describe the sentiment experienced either by Grimmie, me, or anybody coming up a game of bingo in SL. It's more...wonderment? Incredulity? Shocked amusement? I can't even describe it. Bingo...my God...I wish I'd thought of it LOL.



This system has to be questioned, because you can't grow a population of one million based on this premise of Renaissance-type artisans selling to each other in little villages. There have to be other types of mass-based activities that are more democratic and accessible. That's why TSO was so successful -- for a time, anyway. And frankly, even in its waning days, TSO has more than double the customers of SL in terms of subscriptions.


Challenge Everything! Oops, that was the TSO slogan. I mean...um...what's the slogan here again *goes to check website front page*. Let's see...is THIS it? "A new frontier, where limits are obsolete." If the limits are obsolete, that I have to press against where I see them, no? That's what this is about.

And sure, I find it a) puzzling and unfortunate that game capitalists like the Lindens resorted to Soviet-style socialism as "starter fluid" and b) with all the amazing talent and skill here in SL, the center of gravity is casinos and prostitution -- the lowest common denominator of humanity. It's important to point that out now and then.



This remains for me to research. I do know that I don't want them to be forced into prostitution and endless idiotic costume contests in order to make a living. There has to be a better way. And I think if you're going to have government intervention, maybe workfare or public works programs would make more sense than this sort of low-brow idiocy.



I don't believe dwell should be the primary source of income -- that should be the creation of objects, scripts, clothes, etc. -- it should be a meritocracy in that regard that does reward skill, including marketing skill. But dwell should become more accessible as a form of income for newbies and a more democratic marker of what is valued.

.

You'll never get people to do this. Few people are willing to shell out even $10 for an event, from what I can see. It's like paying for buffets in TSO -- you couldn't get them to keep doing it and once big lots undermined that, everyone had to go in that direction.
The fact is, if people's feet freely generates for them a democratic dollar that rewards merit, they will be more than happy, as will those who receive them.



You may want to educate me on this, but the only time I ever heard of anyone offering me to pay something for a quality event was when someone asked me to take $150 to give up my seat at a town hall where they thought Phil Linden was appearing, I guess.




I'm glad you've created a geeky/tekkie/artisans' world where people can create and either give it away for free WIKI-style, or sell it for the highest price. But what about the masses? How will you grow this game? How will you get a customer base? I'm told that Owen Khan, the fellow who made the wonderful smooth dance animations, made something like $10,000/year. That's remarkable! From a game? WOW! But once you ask yourself what Owen's time/talent/treasure could have achieved in RL for the same amount of effort, you are given pause.



Oh I will try to! I've already been experimenting on a wide variety of things, whether contests or dwell or whatever. I'm willing to put in a year on it.

Other than complaining that you aren't earning enough from people standing around on your land, I haven't read any of your ideas yet that seem to suggest any possible OTHER way that you think cash could be earned on Second Life.

Well let me say it for the 6th time at least in this thread -- there should be some kind of public works system or some other method generated perhaps by large projects on large sims to give newbies a way to make money initially without turning to prostitution.
It's a very grim reality that the media will start to pick up more and more on that the chief way for a newbie to make decent money in this game -- barring some remarkable designing or scripting skill which they can't be expected to have initially -- is prostitution.
Can't we do better?



You don't know me and have never come to my events or anything, so you've made an uninformed judgement. My point about leaving a sim AFK while you work in another window is to comment on what you can do during the day, to move your game forward, while you attend to your RL. Of course in the evenings and on weekends, I'd prefer to do something much more entertaining and interesting then leaving my sim on AWAY.

Yeah they do buy furniture and you'd be surprised! It adds up after a while! I'm sure Reverie sells lots of those pose sofas every week, I see tons of them around. And as for simple boxed houses, have you asked Barnsworth what he's made so far selling those? It seems to cover his excessive spending habits in world.

I'm confused. Why are you on Second Life and not on TSO?

--Oraibi

Ingrid, you're right Barnes is keeping himself in the style to which he is accustomed by his boxed sales, but I think he isn't immune to accepting gifts from patrons lol.

Pose sofas and cuddle couches are really a different category than "furniture" don't you think? People buy those to chill and flirt and have av sex with, and that's really the only actual use of furniture in this game no? I mean, so people shop a lot for the perfect chair/couch to have their av sit on while doing game activities? Maybe, I just haven't seen it.

Why aren't I in TSO? But I *am* in TSO. I still have multiple accounts there. I'm even at the object limit for my lot again : ) My logic skill is well past the 10 notch : ) I just haven't made the cookies yet : (

oh, you can take Prokofy out of TSO, but you can't take the TSO out of Prokofy...

This is a really good summary, Lisse, but I think it's missing one vital sum-up line after your last line:

Now that I bought a whole goddang sim (except I think Gov Linden and some other ppl already own part of it but not sure), I have even more heavy motivation to make money, so I still do dwell chores and try to rope ppl to stay on our lot and give dwell because you know how dwell works, one point here, three points there, pretty soon you're talking about real dollars on GOM : )

My slim contribution:

I don't log in like I used to, I've tiered down to an absolute minimum for my account, 1024sqm, of which not all is used.

I build in the sandboxes now, or occasionally island sims that I've asked about permission-wise.

This contrasts heavily with what I used to do, my patterns and level of financial involvement in SL. If I were in charge of tracking accounts, (theoretically) I'd ask why someone paying $40+ USD (at my peak) decided to drop to nearly nothing. But again, I'm not that important, and that particular user-tracking idea may be in action somehow at LL.

I'm not the only one that has done this. I don't know if it is because they're used to it, or a willing newbie just fills the void where I once stood, paying USD into the linden money machine (literal, not meant in any derogatory sense), but it must be part of a 'virtual turnover' that occurs that LL may (or may not) be seeing.

Do active accounts mean you have a satisfied userbase? Or is the fact that out of say, 1,000 account-holders, 500 of those that once had a peak of spending are now subsisting on the bare minimum? I think the latter statistic is more informative, instead of saying 'We have 1,000 users!'....yeah...1,000 at what level?

Again, it all may mean nothing as the influx of new people fill in the gap, as it were, but I always do wonder how it is maintained month after month, when the influx seems somewhat sporadic and linked to advertising campaigns rather than something more constant.

I don't have any data to rely on, just my own observations.

I have concerns for SL at times based on this, I could also be completely wrong.

I make furniture and plop a pose into most of the chairs but none of them are cuddle poses. But most of the other stuff isn't scripted in any way (with the exception of the lamps which work) and people still buy it because there's something about the look of it that they like. No, there's no real use for furniture but people must like decorating their homes because at times I sell entire sets all in one shot. I have a fish tank at my home that I love and it's totally useless. But It has bubbles, lights, plants and fish that move! Okay this is way off topic so I'm ending this post.