My little rant....

I was checking over the new www.secondlife.com web pages and i noticed a disturbing trend... almost every Avatar listed on the right hand side of these pages...with their little description of themselves, their likes and dislikes, stated clubbing, tringo or casinos as their dislikes. Interestingly enough, I also noticed that many of these same people own shops or build for their second life income.

You know what? I dont understand. Not one bit....

Here is a little pice of basic SL income as i see it...(and I must stress that this is a personal opinion....i am not an accountancy major or very majorly business minded)

An avatar, lets call her Jane... starts her second life... and goes to the welcome area. Her very first interaction is with some really cool looking avatars, and she decides to take her $500L and go shopping.
Lets say she buys a dress and some shoes. Now...she has no money. But...as we all know, one set of clothes is never enough...and quite often our first shopping experiences here...could be considered less than desirable. She wants some hair, maybe a new skin... who knows what else, so what does she do? Well..there is one option, she could wait anything up to a week and receive her pay from the Lindens.. and although the prospects of waiting a week for another $500L are very inviting, she decides to hunt around.
Looking at the most popular places in second life, she quickly realsises that Clubs, tringo and Casinos...are a good way to make some money to buy that hair...so she goes along, plays a bit of tringo..or visits a club with a money ball...then goes off, shops again..and the cycle continues.

The clubs, tringo halls and casinos are a MAJOR sorce of the very income that people use to buy the things that keep a lot of second life residents in business. Yes, sometimes they cause lag, yes, sometimes they clutter the events board with their events, yes, they can be noisy eyesores...but for the source of good that they produce for second life, i think it is a fair trade.
it may pay some people to remember that not everyone wants to build, not everyone is capable of scripting, not everyone is able to make the next fashion "must have"...but they/we have a right to exist just as everyone else does.
My buisiness partner and I own a club, and I can tell you that personally we have put over $600US into the economy of second life over the past 2 months. What have we received for this amount of money? Some land...and some very happy customers who go out and shop till they drop. I hear people talk of club owners and tringo operators getting "fat off dwell" well... to those people..I respond with this "LMFAO!!!!".
At my clubs opening... we got a damn good crowd..and received a grand total of around $800L dwell over 3 days. What did we give out to achieve this $800L dwell? about $25000L!
So, it doesnt take a mathemitician to work out that for the beginning part of this clubs life...we were running at an extreme loss... and pouring our RL money into Sl to help people have some fun.
I hold events on most days...and yes, they are "best clothing wins a prize" or whatever...and we sometimes get a nice group of 10-30 friends together and have some fun. I once held some building class events... and in 3 events...managed to get a total of 5 people to turn up.
Why is the events board cluttered with Tringo, club and casino events? because for the most part...they are the things that are attracting the crowds. Whether we like it or not, this is what is popular... this is what works.
Now.. next time you get a sale in your shop..I would like you to ask yoursleves where that $1000 for that skin came from... or where that $250 for that pair of shoes came from, was it from someone walking around SL for a couple of weeks saving every penny they have...or was it from my moneyball...or a tringo game or slot machine payout?

Not to sound like an ass, but if you're pouring all this money into the economy for the "Greater Good" or whatever... bully for you. You shouldn't have to announce it to everyone in order to feel good about yourself, however.

Most people run clubs because they want to make money; that's why most folks in here are actually doing anything in SL, they hear the "kaching" of virtual money being turned into good ol' American Greenbacks and they're willing to do anything (well, anything easily copied) for a few extra cents an hour.

Furthermore, perhaps the people that stick around for any length of time, the ones that put the majority of time and effort into the world, really don't like clubs? Just a thought.

Maybe clubbing isn't the end-all that its defenders make it out to be?

It's just AFK macroing, really.

LF

Oh...dont get me wrong, I am not "announcing it to the world to feel good" I was explaining a point...And, I do not intend to "not make money" from this venture either... but you have obviously missed the point completely...and that is, that without the clubs, casinos and tringo places, the economy in SL would be severely reduced...and a hell of a lot of people would not be making the income that they currently do.

"Furthermore, perhaps the people that stick around for any length of time, the ones that put the majority of time and effort into the world, really don't like clubs? Just a thought.

Maybe clubbing isn't the end-all that its defenders make it out to be?

It's just AFK macroing, really."

yeah, just a thought alright hehe... why would you consider that it is the "people who stick around any length of time" to be the ones putting in the "majority" of the effort? do these clubs build themselves with AFK macroing? are they hosted by AFK macroing?
I will tell you free of charge, that I have put in a major amount of effort for my club...and looking at some out there that are a hell of a lot more successful than mine, so do the other club owners.
I would be interested to know why our form of "effort" is not just as valid as anyone elses?
Any takers?

Thanks, alice, I'm glad you picked up the same thing I did, and stated it independently. I had made *exactly* these same points in a thread that got "disappeared" for reasons you can ask me about in-world some time.

I couldn't agree more -- these content-kings who loathe clubs don't get which side their bread is buttered on.

But we simply MUST challenge it and report on it and analyze it and discuss it *because it harms our own businesses and throttles the game*. I'm so glad you've described *exactly how this works*.

Pathfinder, read this *excellent example of how the system works, and get it, please.*

Lordly's sputtering is just that -- sputtering. It makes no sense. He makes it seem like we should never challenge the anti-Tringo, anti-club, anti-business, anti-commerce, anti-everything-that-isn't-about-itself mentality that he and his confreres espouse. He makes it seem like alice has done something wrong, merely because she stuck her head up and say -- hey, just a minute here! Don't you people get how the economy works? And, I might add, What's all this about? How can you be so anti-club on aesthetic grounds (he think it's just AFK mouse-clicking like TSO, as if it weren't about socializing).

But just look at what he has written:



Nasty, vituperative, personally insulting -- it has everything. It is everything Pathfinder wrote about and more, because it is gratuitously nasty, merely out of spite and a kind of free-floating angst, I guess. Basically, in case you didn't pick up on it, he's accusing you of vanity, pushing an agenda, and challenging your sense of your self and claiming you actually suffer from some kind of inferiorty complex. Pretty handy work in the space of a sentence, hmmm? But that's so typical of this forum style, and a style, I might add, which has gotten little pushing back until me.

Furthermore, you can bet dollars to donuts that his personal attack on you will stand. Everyone will somehow remember this thread as *me* personally attacking someone -- thought I haven't done that at all, here or elsewhere.

His attack will stand, and not even be recognized for what it is -- a nasty, spiteful, backhanded, vicious attack on a new person trying to break into business.

All I've done is do what you do -- report on the facts of this game. The facts tell you that certain profiled people have a message and an agenda:



Watch out alice. Next thing you know, they will gang up on you, tell you have no first life, no jobs, and that you are mentally ill. It's a quick trip then to guillotine.

yes, bully for you indeed! And don't let those robots get you down!



Amen, amen, and I hope they wake up and smell this coffee soon and stop being such prima donas.



You know, what the HELL is this about? Those who "stick around" of a certain kind get to set the agenda for the rest of us? The FUCK you do!!!!



Maybe those who detract from clubs aren't the be-all-and-end-all they make themselves out to be? Just a thought.



Answer: because it is low-brow mass culture that nobodies in RL who have pretensions of high culture in SL need to look down on, in order to vaunt themselves.

oh no... I have no idea how i am meant to take that...lmao.

Hi Alice, and welcome to Second Life. You have inadvertantly hooked our local kook, who will with relish regale you with melodramatic tales and paranoid conspiracies and just about every other form of 'pity poor me' and 'let me tell you why I am right, right, right and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, wrong, wrong' that you can imagine (and then some).

However, if you should at any point disagree with this kook, you will find yourself immediately categorized as 'part of the problem' or 'lacking in self-awareness' or any host of other increasingly denigrating terms, depending on how far from agreeing with the kook you are and how well you stand your ground in the face of the kook's attacks upon you.

Most of us have put this kook on ignore because experience has taught us the kook rarely has anything helpful to say, only more bile and venom and name-calling and classification based upon some warped sense of marytrdom.

You may well decide to do the same once you get a good taste of the kook in action.

As for your post, I have heard a lot that is similiar from friends who own clubs. Since the club support was cancelled, it seems the large clubs are the only ones who can consistantly draw traffic, and even they are doing so at a loss. Clubs cannot last long in this environment, or, if they do, they're going to have to do more and better than dress contests and money prizes to draw people.

Perhaps that is the real lesson -- if you're having to spend money to get people to visit you, something is wrong. Consider the concept of 'the third place' in the real world... basically, it goes like this -- the average person has three places they turn to for satisfaction... home, work, and 'the third place'... be it a bar, a bookstore, a gathering spot, whatever it is, it is part of their routine of enjoyment.

This concept could work as well in Second Life, applied for its own sake and not just as an effort to 'make $USD'. The larger clubs feel the strain because they do not invest as much time in servicing the social need. Walk into one of their venues and if you aren't known as someone who is a regular, outside of the first 'hello' (which you may not even get), you're pretty well ignored. Unless you're acting out sexually... or griefing.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'd like to find 'the third place' in Second Life. I cannot imagine I'm alone in that desire.

Well...i am not sure of the point to putting someone on ignore, I would like to hear everyones views...and you can possibly do that if you are ignoring someone. In order for this "evironment" to survive, it takes all types of people to talk and sort out problems.. whether it be agressive responses from people who are obviously passionate about their message...or people who choose to quote Alice in wonderland hehe.
In answer to your points, yes, I am aware that forking out those sorts of $$$ is not going to lead to a long SL for my club...however, to get known...you have to be willing to do a bit of advertising. Clubs have an ability to generate some serious income through other projects associated with clubbing. for instance, if people are winning money in the club...it is a good idea to have somewhere for them to spedn that money... a mall is one idea, your own vendors is another...gambling machines will eventually pay in favour of the owner as well...it is just a matter of finding the method that works best.
Whether or not i make money is not the main issue at hand though... and i see that being the unhealthy prasctise of "bagging" someone elses method of existance... they are all valid... and they all work hand in hand... if we let them.

WOW! this newbie is smart!

Newbie to SL...maybe, not new to forums.

Ahah!

So the point is?

The end of a sharp object?

Interesting. I've found the concept of new=stupid or unintelligent to be widespread not only in second life but other online venues, games, forums what have you.

Never understood that.

Not knowing how the UI works, or how the society or economy of a place you are unfamiliar with doesn't make you stupid.

During my sojourn as a helper of new folks, I've met a couple of rocket scientists (not kidding!) and various educators in many fields etc and so on. (you know the people that are out there teaching YOUR kids)

You never know who is behind the avatar and I give each and every new person I help the respect that they deserve as a thinking, intelligent human being.

I so hate hijaking threads and I so hate having to say ANYTHING, but that comment was indicative of a major theme around here both on the forums and inworld that I had to post.

alice: keep on keeping on and very well said on your original post! Good observations all around.

Hi Alice, I like clubbing, Tringo, and casinos. I had a look at the profiles on the front page... and I found eight ( featured profiles of Residents. If there are more, please let me know -- of the 8, 5 said they didn't like "clubbing" in some capacity, phrased in different ways. That's almost 63%, and I wouldn't call that "almost every", but a slim majority, yes. No one listed Tringo as a dislike. (I would be shocked if Kermitt did... LOL.)

I know the personalities of some of those Residents well enough to know that perhaps those things were presented poorly, or without better context. Even an emotion like might have been appreciated, because in at least one instance, Aimee Weber has her own "club" (I use that term complimentarily) called Feted, and Cubey has been known to crack jokes about his own clubbiest (superlative) club. Personality comes into play because SL really is about the people, and I'd encourage you to go and seek some of these avatars out and chat with them inworld!

Thanks for sharing your views.

It's ok, most agendas go unnoticed. How easily can we be fooled? Apparently quite. SALUT!

yes Torley, you are quite right, Now that i look again, it is not almost all.. but just over half that have said they didnt like clubbing... i guess my response was a little defensive based on the amount of focus there has been lately on the way these clubs and tringo venues operate...and how bad they are. It does tend to lean towards the events calandar issue... and I tell you, i do tend to agree a lot with what has been said there. All that being said, it is a real shame that the second life main page decided to run with the examples that have been given...and if the particular examples were given "tongue in cheek" then perhaps the Lindens need to take a serious look at that and do something about it. There is one sure fire way to PROMOTE a hatred of clubs and the like... and that is to PROMOTE that people dont like them.
Seems to me to be a dangerous idea to advertise things that people dont like to newcommers...particularly when the very things they are advertising are the bread and butter of their game.

I think what we're learning here is that expressing an opinion is valid. Profiles on the new site express an opinion. Linden Lab promotes clubs as one of the things you can do here, so there's equal time. Other profiles favoring clubs aren't unlikely, just not presented at the moment.

So really, not a big deal, unless you enjoy drama, so please - continue.

I disagree, Torley. 63 percent is more than a bare majority! It's an overwhelming majority.

And when such opinion shapers, some of whom appear a whopping 3 times on the official website, and who appear here constantly with their posts, adopt the anti-club position, it constitutes a real obstacle. Of course, we're all free to ignore them, and go about our business -- and we do.

alice, I'm not a "kook" it's just that I've consistently stood up to these people and refused to waiver under their pressure. It's hard to do, because they do try to browbeat you and beat you down.

Cienna is trying to make an esoteric point with an eggheady reference (we've all read it -- snore -- and SL is obviosly an entire third place all its own, within hundred places contained within it!)

Don't buy it. Some people want clubs to be anonymous black boxes, and others want them to be like quaint little pups. I could comment that the anonymous black boxes just seem to have more traffic LOL.

You're right that a club needs some other revenue generators on it -- casinos, vendors with clothing, freebies, etc.

Sorry all this sparked controversy. When I filled out the questionnaire I took a fairly light hearted interpretation of the word "dislikes". Imagine a guy taking me on a date... there are places I like to go, and places I would rather not go. Nobody should imply any more from my statement than personal preference. I obviously dont POST anti-club stuff in the forums.

As Torley said, I HAVE a dance club (feted)! I LIKE dance club people (I hang regularly with Trinity, Nala, Sukkubus, Kenzie, Madame). I just tend to do other things in game. Alice I hope this sets you at ease, at least with me.

I think you have the statistics wrong.
"Trimda Hedges" is a "Club owner".
OF COURSE he didn't say 'I don't like clubbing', he's totally not impartial on that matter, so I think he shouldn't be counted.

It would be like asking 7 people in RL + the president if they like the president. Even if the president doesn't like himself, he couldn't say that.

So it's rather 5 of 7 who dislike clubs (and that's 71%).

'


Since your statements are read by thousands of people, and only 5 percent of them come to the forums, and since a critique of your stance was even deleted entirely by a Linden, why don't you do the right thing and ask the Lindens to remove your "dislikes" so that it doesn't set up the false impression that "opinion makers" are trying to put clubs out of business and steer everyone away from them?

Yes, I'd like LL to change my "dislikes" or remove them from the profile. It really does give the wrong impression. While I don't like to go to clubs, malls, or casinos myself, I can understand why they're as popular as they are.

I'm not anti-club. I do feel that there have been, at times, more clubs, casinos, and malls than the small game population can support, but I've always held that the market forces will weed out the less successful ones until a balance is found. That, of course, can be said for any type of business or service.

Just a poorly managed coincidence.

Whoever created the secondlife.com website should realise that it is an important marketing tool which sets the tone for much of what SL is about.

Featuring five avatars who all say they dislike clubs was probably just an error and not so much a desire to 'set the tone'.

"that without the clubs, casinos and tringo places, the economy in SL would be severely reduced...and a hell of a lot of people would not be making the income that they currently do."

I don't know why, but a lot of people who build and script don't get, or don't want to get, this connection.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I also agree pretty much with Prokofy's views on this subject.

Keep speaking up.

Maybe we'll get somewhere eventually.

coco