Maintain Capitalism and Free Market

Are you aware that europe is a dying continent? The only countries making any progress at all are the ones moving away from socialism.



Do you have any idea how terrible canada's health system is? Hell, they even made a movie about it. Les Invasions Barbares.



Yea, both of which suck. They still remain, thankfuly, a drop of socialism in a capitalist ocean. I never claimed there was no socialism outside self-declared communist countries.



Yea, socialism as a concept is total evil, socialism in practice is not efficient enough to be total evil.



Nonsense. The very concept of a trade war is ridiculous. You cannot call the exchanging of value, war.



Thankfuly the people in power are not powerful enough to carry out socialism as it is supposed to be carried out.



Chile and Spain did pretty well. But if you mean fascist, that is socialism wearing a mask, no, "we" wouldn't. I'm not part of that we however.



See above.

Well I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

And this has *what* exactly to do with Socialism?
I thought we were talking about Socialist oriented gvernments as in European style Social Democracy, not Marxist Leninist dogma.

See you should not include this one.
The "apples" are above, this is an "orange"

Biased much?

Haha! and Capitalism has *nothing* at all to do with greed right?

Blah, blah, blah...

You know, dont bother to even answer this post. It's pretty obvious we have no common basis to even have a discussion about this. I guess you could say that my idea of "evil" is unfettered Capitalism, and yours is some kind of Communism or Fasicsm that you seem to believe equates with Socialism or Social Democracy? But beyond that there seems to be nothing to debate.

Have a nice time on the crusade!

Where did you get that idea? LL says all the time that a free market is a very important goal.

Lots of words and pictures deleted....

I only answered your second, (more vitriolic) post after my second one.

Read that if you want. I dont have time for one of those long negative back and forths that you seem to be asking for here.

Trebuchets can be bought in.. Jessie I think, if you need one.

.

I'm entitled to my right to life, liberty and property.



Nonsense. The only difference betweena leninist and a social-democrat is means. One recognizes that they cannot totally destroy capitalism, because that would destroy themselves. The other does not care.



Decadent form of greed.



Alright, if you want to stay in your state of ignorance and stupidity, go ahead.



I wish I did not have to fight one.

Obviously Canada And most of western Europe are markedly more sucessful than Chillie and Spain.

You could do an expose on how bad the Capitalist American health care system is also. The costs are quickly rising to unmanageable levels. Considering no country on Earth has the current resources for providing care the US does, its an apples and oarnges comparision anyway.

And I didnt invent the concept of a Trade War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_war. I dont see it as nonsense. The Chinese are deliberately maintaining an undervalued currency to put them at a competitive advantage.

As far as the Communistic manifesto , theories on Socialismm and the rest. -

Basically the concept was oppressed workers would not be able to tolerate working conditions and overthrow their governments.

Well big news - a socialist movement DID take place in Industrialized countries. It was called the Labor Movement - Labor Unions instead of over throwing their governments effectively socialized their working conditions.

Obviously the UAW/ AFL-CIO / Teamsters are not Capitalistic entitiues - they use COLLECTIVE bargaining in order to ensure a certain level of pay and working conditions for the workers - they use Politial clout ( omg SOCIALIST political pressure) to change the political climate to an extent in their favor.

An interesting wrinkle in all of this is the Industrialzation of countries who have extremely low standards of living. These of course provide capitalistic opportunities to produce in foriegn countires at the cost of domestic jobs.

What will be interesting, however, will be when working conditions and low pay become an issue for those workers in those countires.

A politcal system and theory is only as evil as the people who run it. Communisism is no more or less evil than Socialism nor capitalism or fascism.

The stifling of the people's ability to participate in government however leads to abuse.

It would be possible to have an enlightened sucessful Dictatatorship.

Its also possible to have a truly representitive Communist government- however it is very difficult becuase most people's motivations stem from the desire for money and material things.

If you had a whole society of people interested in sharing everything? would they be able to live in peace as a Representative Socialist Democracy?

I would have to argue they could. Is the world ready for it - not really. Does it mean you dont try? Not necesarily.

I maintain that my presentation of economic and historical facts surrounding my post about capitalism vs. socialism are accurate and correct, and not merely my opinion.

Just on Nicholas Portocarrero's comments, Im on his side, socialism is an insidious evil, but I think theres a problem between all parties here in relation to exactly what socialism is:

From: someone

Wikipedia: Socialism

is an ideology with the core belief that a society should exist in which popular collectives control the means of power, and therefore the means of production. In application, however, the de facto meaning of socialism has evolved and branched to a great degree, and though highly politicized, is strongly related to the establishment of an organized working class, created through either revolution or social evolution, with the purpose of building a classless society. It has also, increasingly, become concentrated on social reforms within modern democracies.

In this regard to brand Canada a socialist society or all of Europe, and even Australia for that matter as socialist societies in inaccurate because at least with Canada and Australia for example, both are libertarian capitalist societies with socialist tendencies, as opposed to actual socialists countries. The French on the other hand, with their restrictive laws on trade and labour are closer to a socialist society that occasionally shows libertarian capitalist tendencies. Other countries in Europe are normally some sort of variation on the two themes. None however are strict socialists societies because none indeed work as countries in where popular collectives control the means of power, and therefore the means of production.

Socialist theory as we know was the central tenant of communism, and as the communists clearly demonstrated, it is a flawed ideology that actually ends up creating stronger and more powerful elites at the expense of the general population, see some of my previous posts of the FIC. Most of the people on these boards shouting about restrictions and protection of goods do so because socialism is also a tenant of fascism as well, they are actually smart enough to know that supporting socialism in SL is actually a means to and end to cement their power and position in this community, which leads us again back to what their real intent is, and that's fascist control and domination of all activity in SL.

Don't get suckered in, support libertarian capitalism in Second Life!

Horatio wins !

Now back on-topic, please.

Excellent points, Colette.

why does Horatio win?

Interesting that you beat up on Jamie for what you percieve as not being clear on fact vs. opinion yet you don't clue us in on whether your read on Jamie is fact or opinion.

Here is a fact -- you are overly sensitive on an issue of ideology.

Here is an opinion - You and others who want us to look up definitions of socialism/capitalism etc.. are missing the point. Your narrow-minded belief that any of these ism's can exist only when Webster's definition is adhered to will lead to this pissing contest and will serve no purpose towards addressing the real point of this thread. DOes anyone remember what that was. I'm open to your opinions.

When did we leave the topic???

???

The real point of this thread IS THIS. If you are open to our opinions, READ BACK.

your own wikipedia entry does not agree with your assertions - actually as i read it a couple of times it agrees more with what Di and I have been saying.

---------------------------------------
Wikipedia: Socialism is an ideology with the core belief that a society should exist in which popular collectives control the means of power, and therefore the means of production.
((this is exactly true - in order to stem off unchecked greed of a profit based system -socialist controls - whether in the form of government involvement, or regualtion, or organized labor are used))

In application, however, the de facto meaning of socialism has evolved and branched to a great degree, and though highly politicized, is strongly related to the establishment of an organized working class, created through either revolution or social evolution, with the purpose of building a classless society.

((This directly applies to Labor Movements - "organized working class" - ideally with government protections for them. Some people were shot for organizing unions originally in the US, for those who dont remember.

The reforms of the organized woorking class is a standard of living that approaches that of the Management -- ie a less rigid class system))

It has also, increasingly, become concentrated on social reforms within modern democracies.

((Precisely - becuase of the people involved - AND the democratic governments in the countries where socialist reforms have worked to one extent or another ( Western Europe , Canada , US , other places) - these changes have been made peacefully. ))

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I think there is a real problem Many people have isolating the core concepts and ideals of a political thought and its implimentations

People see Socialism and Communism as Evil becuase it was used in places that became Totalitarian, that squashed human achievement, rights and lives to maintain power.

STEP back and start looking farther back in history and youll see that oppression in the human experience FAR outdates Socialist and Communist theory.

The Evil of communist regimes exists and existed in the hearts of humans.

The ideologies were used as tools of those humans to further their own ends.

Much like the ideals of the "Divine rights of the Monarchy" were used by kings to rob power from the nobility to secure power in their countries. The people in those contries were oppressed in case people are forgetting their history.

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Now in Second Life - there is socialist community I believe - so this very much is "ON TOPIC" when anti-socialist rhetoric is tossed about.

The nice thing about Second life is you can go wherever you want.

If people wish to stay clear of the (i forget the exact name) socialist Community - all they have to do is TP somewhere else.

But for those who do want to be involved they can also.

And those are not Evil people.

Hi Colette -- we miss seeing you around the beach.



Totally agree. Having lived in various parts of the plant I am comfortable adding here that a major issue seldom covered when discussing US health care is the proclivity of Americans to rush to the emergency room with hang nails, stubbed toes and other non-life threatening emergenices. All players (government, insurance companies, providers, your below mentioned unions) have thier hands in this cookie jar. Pity but that occurs regardless of what 'ism you live under.



Again, agree. I am actually surprised and impressed that the Chinese have paced themselves so well. They would have initially succeeded in economically rolling the US and EU had they pressed it back in the 90's but would have been pushed back by now.

First off, excellent points Collette!

Other than the workers in the early 1800s, when Marx and Engels wrote their manifesto, or the farmers living in pre-soviet russia in a highly oppressive feudal society there is no threat to ones live or well-being from exploitation by a 'ruling class' in SL. You don't even have to work at all to 'survive' - communism at it's best!

My opinion on Communism/communist theory etc. in RL is that they are ideologies and therefore not evil - in fact, I think they have the well-being of everybody as their highest goal. However, there has never been a communist state in the history. These ideologies have been abused from the beginning to create and maintain totalitarian regimes. In so far they are not much different from religion, but that's a different topic (oh oh, can of worms). They are also inherently flawed and don't take human nature into account. Having grown up in a 'socialist' east-european country prior to its downfall, I could witness the wide array of negative effects of 'ownership by the people'. I think the only way something like communism could work is in a very small community of people (couple of hundreds max).

Or one where all barriers to exchange of ideas and the ability to think and voice your opinion were removed.

Much like the futurists concepts of a true international metaverse.

Of course this would effectively make a large number of people a small community.

it would require a huge change in the motivations of huge numbers of people.

I think thats why in an "opt in" system such as is being tried in SL - it can work , since those people are idealists to an extent.

Think a big problem that socialism has is motivation - since money is the motivator for most people , since they see money = comfort and stuff.

Exactly! It only works if people don't think of their returns when working for something. And that just doesn't work. Members of a society need to work to maintain the society as a whole. And division of laber is certainly a very good thing, so some sort of mediating entity like money is necessary for the exchange of goods and services. However, if the 'rewards' (whatever they may be) for this work are not tied to this effort/quality, some people will start getting lazy. People who do work hard on the other hand, see those people who don't do their share of work and still get just as much 'rewards', they will also start slacking. And who can blame them? As a whole this will hurt the economy and therefore the society, and this is exactly what happened to most of the so-called 'communist' countries in Europe. Yes, there will always be a few people who work hard no matter what, but the vast majority of people will not. I believe that humans are inherently lazy (and that can be a good thing!).

this is the big arguement used by those who dont like Unions also - they see the lack of merit based employment incentives as a barrier to productivity.

I wonder how much increases in technology will make producing things less tedius - and increase incentives that way.

Also as technology makes it possible for humans to survie with less labor - how many people will be in vocations that are not related to survival and maintaining/improving people's standard of living.

will be very interesting to know what sort of political systems exist in say 300 years.

This is hilarious. I won't try to debate, there is no point. But stay out of my business.

meaning what exactly? Dont go into your shop becuase of something I said on the forums?
-or-
dont reply to things you say on the forums?


why becuase I was willing to argue back when you stomped on Di with obvious bais?

No one ever said 'socialists' were going to take over SL

someone mischaracterised socialists, Di took exception and you lambasted her.

Im of the belief as were most of the professors who taught/spoke with me when studying history that much of the "Socialism/Communism is Evil" is rhetoric that is left over from the Cold war.

Any ideology can be used for evil. At its roots communism and socialism are altruistic.

You cant even point to the part about urging a revolution as evil - Since the United States would then have been evil for rebeling against the Bristish.


I certainly would NOT be in favor of making people join soicalist groups or even advocating a socialist economic model for second life however -

-so if thats what you mean by staying out of your business - rest assured you are safe from me.

Horatio sure has fabulous insight into the social workings of SL after ONE month. Hmmmmm.

FIC FIC FIC

Socialism is EVIL!

I smell a rotten fish.

At it's most basic, christian religion is socialist: love thy neighbour, share with each other, help the poor and the needy...
So if socialist is really evil, as was mentioned, then what does that make christian religion, or any other religion for that matter, they all pretty much say the same thing...

Please separate the idea from what greedy power hungry dictators do in the name of that idea.

Agreed. Though in practice, few seem to actually follow the religions they claim to subscribe to.

Life in America (which supposedly has a christian orientation) mainly revolves around making as much money as possible, buying the biggest house possible, driving the coolest car possible, dating / marrying the most attractive partner possible, and sending your kids to the best schools possible.

Caring about other people? Who has time for that while you're trying to keep up with the Joneses?

So really, America is truly capitalistic at heart.

Note: These are just my personal observations and opinions, I am not trying to pass them off for facts. Your actual mileage may vary. Though I do admit my life falling into the above mentioned observations. And if you are a cute, successful, single guy in the Midwest looking to date a young professional PM me