LindeX "attacked" again

Right now someone is posting small amounts of L$ at +3 rate, escalating it, in the hope of making other sellers will drop larger amounts at these artificially inflated rates before those are bought up. Just thought I'd signal it.

Easy to counteract.

Drop the whole silly economy idea, sell for L$225, buy for L$250, and be done with it.

Saves so much hassle for everyone.

Lewis

I second this motion

1) These guys do not have much financial power to back them up to crash the L$.

2) Unless you hate money you'd sell at pathetic rates. (or just need USD fast)

I doubt it matters anyways. The L$'s value is pretty much moving around 278-284 for the past few weeks, I think it has already established an equlibrium there, and with the new LL measures, we could see it rise a bit if not continue to stay at this range.

As it has been discussed elsewhere ad infinitum: This would not work. Even if Linden Lab would implement this in the LindeX, it would be impossible to control what others do. And as soon as L$ could be bought somewhere cheaper, buyers would go there. As soon as L$ could be sold for a higher price elsewhere, sellers would go there.

Second Life would be a very much different experience, if Linden Lab would kill the convertible currency. It is perfectly possible that you and some other residents would like this Second Life X better. Others prefer a system like it has been created here. So its all a matter of personal preference in the end. And the market offers many different variants of MMOGs. I guess anyone can choose a system that fits his preferences best.

And please don't forget, that Linden Lab installed this economy intentionally. If you care and read the thoughts that Philip and others at LL have published on this topic, you will find that this is very important for their vision of Second Life.

Thats why I very much doubt, that they will kill it. Given their attitude it seems much more likely that we will see more not less elements of a silly economy in the near future.

Who cares what LL's "vision" is? Clearly they have a 'hands off' approach and let every other aspect be controlled and created by the users. Whatever their vision may be, it seems like it's some form of digital utopia, which will never happen because of some of the players who only care about their own interests instead of improving the environment for everyone?

I don't understand why have they forced one and one only way of an economy on all of us, many of whom would find our game enhanced if it were not for having to throw money at other players just to achieve anything.

I'd much rather invest real money by giving it to SL, who will put it back into improving the game experience, than buying money off of some other player who is only inflating their bank account.

Lewis

Linden Lab and its top management? Maybe?

I'm just not going to do something "because it's the way LL wanted it to turn out" - although LL 'run' the game, the actual game itself is only what it is because of the players and what they create.

All I'm saying is that LL don't seem to quite have grasped the fact that whereas everything else is pretty much left to the individual to do whatever they like (such as the Bush signs guy not being classed as a griefer) - yet they are forcing a 'working' economy system on all of us whether we like it or not. And I don't. I don't think I'm alone either.

Lewis

The economy of SL is "forced" onto its residents in the same way and with the same level of attention to detail as inworld physics or the principles of constructing objects out of 3D prims.

LL provides us with some basic building blocks and some rules how they interact. What happens then is left to the residents. Hmmm ... looking at it with some distance, I would actually say, there are more rules and constraints for building then for interacting in the SL economy.

You may not like the results. Why don't you try to find link minded people and build another sub-economy in SL? You could even set up your own currency exchange where L$ are sold at a fixed price of 255L$/US$ and can be bought at 250 L$/US$. Linden Lab won't interfere with that. You have the freedom! Really!

Tried that in Sims Online... worked for a couple of weeks, then people gave up because it's too much like hard work, and you get abuse from so many people because they feel threatened by the fact that you're prepared to do something different.

If LL controlled the economy, and you could only - within the ToS - buy from LL, then they'd be getting all the money themselves instead of a few greedy people with their own pockets in mind controlling 99.99999999 of the game.

It's a game. It's game money. It shouldn't be subject to the same exchange rates as real life money does. Why is keeping first and second lifes separate thrown so often into the mix except when it comes to making real cash?

Lewis

So, the problem might be ... "people"?

Didn't you say - a few comments ago - that "I don't understand why have they forced one and one only way of an economy on all of us"? And now you want them to force this (your suggested) "one and one only way of an economy on all of us" by integrating it into thos TOS?

So, it is not OK, when a fellow residents wants to make a profit but it is OK when Linden Lab wants to make a profit?

Jesrad:

Citizens of Second Life have the (RIGHT) to sell their L$ at any price they want.
"The Market" will determine fair value of the Linden Dollar. If the person(s) who
posted a sale for L$ at below market value, the laws of economics will cause
that L$ to be bought and resold for a higher value.

Don't worry Jesred, Capitalism will resolve any imbalance in the marketplace.
You should ask yourself this question:


"Will I be complaining about value if the exchange rate was L$70=US$1.00?
(ie: US$14.28 for L$1000)."

Just remember, the free market works in both directions. Don't be bias.

So don't throw your money at the people you consider greedy. Try to work with people like Yadni to get more things free for people. Pay money to people that are creating what makes you want to stay in Second Life. No one is forcing you to throw money at anyone. Linden Labs is not in the market of creating stuff to improve Second Life. Linden Labs is in the market of getting a bigger population and more land for sale. When you pay Linden Labs, you are not paying to get more things to do. Only when you pay residents that make things you like, do you pay people working to make things better for everyone.

If you think every person that creates content is greedy, then you obviously haven't explored much. There are plenty of content creators that do it soley for the art or enjoyment of it. If you like what they do, then help them pay Linden Labs those teir fees they owe every month.

Correct.

LL will plough the money back into the game. Money speculators only have thier own interests in mind.

Lewis

Even if the Lindex closed down, the $L would still trade. Every mmo I have ever been in has had 3rd-party currency traders. Sony tried to stop that with stringent penalties and wasn't able to... why do you think LL would be able to when they don't have the staff to effectively moderate the forums?

The current system at least keeps trading fairly safe for the buyer. Sellers don't suffer in a black market.

I do support YadNi's where I can. But have you tried buying land lately? That's probably why most people have to buy money; I know I could live quite happily on my weekly pocket money from LL during my normal gameplay style - but buying land is why I would need more L$

Lewis

Okay, the cost of land starts with Linden Labs. The cheapest recycle auctions always cost $L3.8/meter2, which is why the cheapest land you can get is most likely $L3.8/meter2. The cheapest you can get a sim is $L4.3/meter2, which is why there is probably so much land at that price. The recent auctions have sold land for as much as $L6.5/meter2 when you take into account the value of the $L and the 3.5% service charge. I remember half a year ago when there was even a few properties as low as $L2.0/meter2 not being sold. They changed to the US$1000/sim auctions at that time, and the bottom of the land market has raised up to meet that mark ever since. Cheaper land has to start with Linden Labs.

If I had a choice of buying at L$250 from LL, or buying at L$300 from some unknown name on Ebay, I would stick with the safer option personally.

If people choose the 'independent option' and get stung in a scam, that's their fault, not LL's.

Lewis

Personally I'd rather see the tier fees slightly increase, and do away with paying to purchase land in the first place.

Lewis

Then how do you cope with some land being intrinsically more valuable than other land? Should there be a different tier rating for having a sea-front parcel? different tiers for a pretty view? tiers for good neighbours? tiers for local sim lag? Cheap tier for land next to a club?

Handing land valuation over to a free market mechanism - like we have now - is a solution to such problems.

Sorry, uh, what's a YADNI?

Well the good thing about buying the land, is that you will always get that money back if you don't pay for something that is overpriced. Land will always be around the range of $L3.8/1meter2 and US$1000/52428meter2. If you pay for land in that range, you will always get that money back when you leave as long as Linden Labs doesn't lower the price of land and you don't wait until a few days before your next teir payment. If teir fees raise, you pay money that will never be returned to you ever. From the buyers perspective the no purchase price seems ideal, but if you were selling your land for whatever reason right now, you would be happy that you paid the purchase price. You woule be about to get paid yourself.

Linden Labs also is probably better off from the purchase price, as they get an infusion of immediate cash everytime they open up a new sim relatively quickly. Not to mention that people still paying teir while their selling makes Linden Labs much more in teir than if they only got teir from occupied land. Those 6000 plots are all being paid for while they are being sold. Plus how would they deal with recycled land. Do they just randomly select who is going to have to pay teir on the land surrounded by Bush signs. They certainly can't afford to let every undesirable peice of land be unpaid for.

It seems to me that these "attacks" aren't really attacks against the econoomy, but rather someone trying to exploit a flaw of the game interface, namely that it defaults to selling at the highest rate available.

If LL modified the interface just a bit (perhaps to show the value of the Lindex over the past week in a bar graph) and then had the user enter what they think the correct value is, then this "exploit" would probably vanish.

On the other hand, who posts milion L$ chunks of currency without checking the market first?

Lewis, did you ever check the website of Linden Lab? If not, please do! It is a company, not a church. There were even some of those ebil Venture Capitalists putting money into this venture. Do you honestly believe they are less interested in making a profit than your friendly neighbour in SL who does a little business there?

Lets see.
I pay 195$ (real money, not game money) for a isle
Out of my greediness i work about 3 to 4 hours per day to earn greedy as i am the Lindens to sell for US$ to pay the isle wich benefits quite a lot of people wich dont have to pay beside donating lindens <gasp>

Put way the economy in SL and i for shure will close the place down because i have no intentions to pay 195$ (US!) to keep the isle open for freeloaders.

That easy.