Does the L$ have intrinsic value?

Please state why, as briefly as possible.

For the guy who has a lot of questions, I know a place that has a lot of answers.

Or, more directly to the question as posed, it does if you think it does.

I believe it does have value.

It's a representation of time invested in ::

creating for content.

Managing land for resale.

preparing and hosting an event.

etc etc (just to be brief).

Why am I unable to vote for both no and other?


No: I think that at this point it is worth exactly what the TOS says it is, in real terms.

Other: I think at some point it COULD have a real value. I think this would require a fundamental redefinition on LL's part though. Perhaps when they are ready to redefine it, we could explore and consider whether it has a real value, or only a preceived value.

Precieved value is still value.

This poll is worded poorly.

I am wearing pants.

four brief statments.

Preceived value is like beauty though, it is only in the eye of the beholder. I think more "input on this" is required on LL's part than giving out welfare with newly minted currency supply before the issue of value can be properly addressed.

While the TOS may state that L$ has no value, and LL does not sell it, the game, or whatever SL is, has many elements which would be unavailable to most people unless they convert real life currency into L$. With the current stipend, it would take years for someone to save up enough L$ to purchase many of the items required to get full use and enjoyment out of SL.

While one might make the case that it is expected that we all do something to make L$ off of each other in order to acquire items that we would not be able to purchase from the stipend alone, if we all did that, we would end up simply passing around the same volume of L$ between ourselves, which would be a wash.

So, regardless of what the TOS says, LL is aware of the need for conversion of RL currency for L$, facilitates and encourages currency exchange, and full use of the product for most users requires that they convert RL currency to L$.

It has a certain kind of value, but remains fiat money, unbacked by anything but that very perception.

This is not in itself disasterous, so is the US dollar.... but at the same time, it mean the value of the L$ in comparision to other currencies is quite likely to flux.

I would disagree. There are many, many casual and social residents who get by just fine on the welfare provided by LL. In fact, these users collectively seem to be a major driving force in the Second Life economy. Full use and enjoyment are also like beauty, they exist only in the eye of the beholder.





This is not the case that I would make. Casual and social users feel a sense of entitlement to the LL welfare, and frankly I agree. I would only suggest that it be restructured to make more sense from the standpoint of minting new money every week. THEN we will have some ground to stand on when discussing the "value" of a virtual currency.

For the economy to be stable long-term the current program of rapid currency minting can't continue. Short-term nobody will notice. Mid-term it will manifest as a gradual slide, as can be seen again, even after the most recent changes to curtail inflation. Long-term, it's "game over", from an economic standpoint, at least as far as I see it.

I'm sure that LL realizes this and as we grow, will make more changes similar to the last round of changes. What saddens me though, is that they could make a few simple and, in my opinion, fundamental changes right now that would fix this once and for all.



I agree with you as far as that LL does seem to see some kind of need to maintain some kind of economic stability. It's just the methodology which I feel places only a preceived value on the L$, at least for the time being.

There is also the fact that LL themselves have been doing a sort of co-mingling of funds by selling land both in L$ an USD, which would further suggest that LL considers the two currencies interchangeable.

None of our discussions, nor the ToS, nor anything LL says, really matters. A court will decide this issue eventually. RL laws supersedes anything that goes on in SL.

They seem to do this to provide a (MUCH NEEDED!) economic "sink". At least that's how I've heard it explained. I don't remember if I read this from a resident or LL.



Agree. Eventually the casinos, the stock markets, the commidities exchanges, the bond brokers, etc etc will be drug into court, possibly in more than one country. Linden Lab itself may even be drug into court. I think you're right that a day will come when a verdict will be handed down on all of this. This verdict will be another thing which will give us some ground to stand on when discussing the "value" of a virtual currency on a forum.

I think it will also likely be entirely civil in nature, and lay the ground work for the future of virtual worlds, rather than attempting to prosecute the past.

I really think that we're all poineers here. We're really on the verge of a lot of things. At the end of the day though, I don't think the possibility that trials which could go either way may occur to define the issues at a later date really does a lot for us now. I think that this actually has to happen before it can provide us with any meaningful new ground in discussing the "value" of a virtual currency.

*** DISCLAIMER ***
This is all just my (possibly wrong) opinion! I am not providing legal advice or opinions!

Intersting article http://www.occ.treas.gov/ftp/release/96-54.txt

This thread is pretty rapid-fire right now. (July 27, 11:15pm SL time). Would anyone care to sit down in-world and have a chat on the topic? I find it very interesting. If anyone would like to come, I offer an open invite to my home at Cayuga (178, 38).

Interesting article Blaze.

It has always seemed that game currency would be an excellent way to launder money and transfer it across borders. I'm surprised that this hasn't been addressed by now. Also, I read that one of the game currencies, Everquest or Ultima I think, constitutes the 77th largest economy in the world, just behind Russia, in USD value.


Shaun, it's interesting that in one post you are arguing that L$ is not real currency, but that if it ever is determined that it is real currency, that we should not prosecute the past. Why would you want that to be the case?

Because this would be an ex post facto law. Retroactive prosecution.

Failure to enforce existing law today does not make it constitutionally prohibited ex post facto law tomorrow; yoiu need to write laws today penalizing conduct yesterday for that.

Actual information is almost always superior to armchair speculation.

It doesn't have intrinsic value, but the fact that it can be traded gives it value.

Hmm. What existing laws regulate something like for example, a virtual casino, operating in a virtual world, using cash in the form of funny money to conduct gaming operations? Why aren't they being enforced? Surely you're not suggesting that after years of this and a population of nearly 40,000 people, NOBODY KNOWS?

I suspect that such laws don't exist at this time. If you have the actual information which you allude to above though I'm all ears. The key word in my statement is "suspect".

Of course it does. If you go to GOM and pony up hard earned USD $ it has value regardless of what the TOS says.

The linden has no *intrinsic* value.

Then again, neither does a dollar bill, in my opinion. It's all play money that is only worth something as long as we (collectivly) believe it is.

Yah, malachi's original link was good. According to the wiki, L$ is a fiat currency.

However, as has been shown in the past, even non-fiat currencies can turn into fiat currencies, thus, really, making them fundamentally fiat.

other.

"intrinsic" implies value in and of itself. Not even US$ have "intrinsic value" - the value is backed by the US Gov't as a promisary note. So no money really has "intrinsic value".

Better question: Do necroposts have any intrinsic value?

I hate to spin the thread but, what is a necropost?

Taking an old thread / subject and bringing it back to life.

For example, in my fair state, if I give you a book and you give me some pretzels, we have conducted a taxable event and in principle ought pay the requisite sales taxes, that is, barter is sales although no money was involved.

A simple google search reveals that there is a good deal of awareness of the subject but there are interpretive questions about jurisdiction and it is often more expedient to write a specific law banning that which lugubrious judicial process may determine is in fact covered by existing laws.

Finally, as Al Capone was well aware, the Internal Revenue Service has broad executive powers to require - through executive process - information on all sorts of financial activities e.g. IRS Publication 17 which states:

1. You must include your gambling winnings in income on Form 1040, line 21.
   
2. llegal income, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Form 1040, line 21,
   
3. If you win a prize in a lucky number drawing, television or radio quiz program, beauty contest, or other event, you must include it in your income.
   
4. If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession.
   
5. If you receive a bribe, include it in your income.
   

along with a zillion other forms of "income".

But let's not sully a good thread with data