Do people not understand how economies work?

TY Alexa

Sofar Linden Lab has been very supportive of what we are doing in Dreamland. They just did not want people confuse doing business with residents and doing business with Linden Lab.



This could theoretically be one problem. But you do not cure the patient by kill him. There is hundreds of land owner now in Dreamland, Azure Islands or Neubrandenburg. And I can tell you that in Dreamland nobody worries about Anshe. But everybody worries about Linden Lab. You just need ask some residents how they felt about patch 3 weeks ago that took away their ability to advertise their land sales As for Azure Islands and Neubrandenburg I have no reason to believe it is any different there. Both place I believe are responsibly managed.



I think we disagree on what the rules are. But don't you think that if what ANSHECHUNG.COM, Gigas and Neubrandenburg team are doing is in any way against rules or even against spirit of what Linden Lab wants somebody should have mentioned this to us at least once? As I mentioned above Linden Lab has been 100% informed of our plans from very beginning several months ago. Including our model of selling and trading land deeds. Our business is 100% setup by the rules and with best intentions for Second Life as a whole. >200 land owners buying, selling and trading land in those sims are fact. You can not suddently declare 5% of all land owners in Second Life to be rule breakers.

In fact, when island sim land deeding was introduced, we understood this as one green light from Linden Lab to realize the plans that we had already communicated to them in November and that we had started to test with less convenient tools in Midge on the mainland. We have constantly been in touch with Linden Lab and it has never been suggested to us to change what we are doing.

Well I have been given the opposite impression completely. Also remember, that one of the reasons stated that they viewed them as rentals only was not black mark against you Anshe. You have been trading and providing services for a while. The reason they stated them as being rentals is the fear that the system could be abused. Until that is addressed, they can hardly support one resident over another, no matter how well established he/she may be.

I can see why you may have seen the introduction of deeding as a green light. But did you not see the removal as listing as sales as being just as much a red light?

And yes, I am surprised that LL have not been active in this area, especially when a stand was so clearly made on the matter.

I think that's a tad unfair. They took the ability to list them as land sales away quite simply because they don't view them as such.

Even if you would consider this one red light on this matter it came after more than 15000 US$ were invested and more than 150 people already bought land. But in fact Lindens made it clear that their issue was that they don't want be made responsible for transactions between residents and nothing else.



A stand was made clear in a different matter but not what is discussed here. There were plenty of opportunities from the very beginning where Lindens could have voiced concerns, objected to our plans or could have simply asked us to only do rental and not sell and trade deeds the way people do now in Dreamland. This never happened.

I believe Linden Lab's policy is that they want it to be 100% clear to people when they are doing business with Linden Lab and when they are doing business with somebody else. Once that is clear they don't seem to care under what terms land is transfered between residents.

Yes I suspect you are right here. The problem is, when you state they are land sales, that's when the confusion that they are concerned about comes into play. They are definately in favour of the types of communities you, me, and many others are creating. What they want to be clear on is that these are not land sales. That's the problem. They made this clear in the hotline, I also asked one Linden directly and got the same response. I will quote what a Linden told me..

"We support the idea of renting -- what we take exception to is positioning a rental as a sale as we can't assume that every landowner will have the integrity the early landowners have shown (unfortunately)."

The reality is that their actions came after the facts existed. For this reason they were very negatively perceived by those who were affected.

Btw, you may recall Robin suggesting we list our offerings on SLExchange, the classified forums and in world advertising networks. This implies that there was no opposition to what we are doing but simply concerns about mixing them with mainland land sales. You don't tell somebody to list something in the classifieds forums if it would break rules.

Ye s but if you go back and re-read what you are referring to, you will see that she is suggesting we list/advertise RENTALS in those media.

Is it possible that Land Barons are actually hurting from these changes or are they merely playing possum?

AnsheCorp is as big as ever... its hard to believe she suffered a loss.

Well I would imagine that those that deal in main grid land only may have suffered a dip, though nothing drastic. And in a previous thread Anshe stated she made a loss on the main grid, but I am sure her new continent has compensated. Also, Anshe is a huge enough player in the business to shrug off such temporary dips.

I believe Anshe said she suffered a "five figure loss" and her new efforts have not nearly compensated for the loss.

I find this most hard to believe.

Apologies, I stand corrected.

Why? The people on these forums can be most distrustful.

If on your bank account you have 100$, then you take loss and only have 50$ left you are not bankcrupt, but you still feel very miserable.

If you have land on mainland and within 6 weeks land value drops 30%-40% you still own the land on the mainland. But you took huge booking loss because it is a lot less worth now.

While I own more sqm now than in March, its value is a lot less than what I owned at that time.

Running private island sims is not as profitable as you could assume. There is huge startup cost, sims need be filled, public land needs be financed, staff must be paid, transactions fees handled and so on. If you go to car dealer and he has 10 Ferrari on display does not mean that the car dealer is rich either. It is tough business with small margin.

I do understand what you are saying, Anshe. But the hard reality is that you (and some of your alternative avatars) still rule the leaderboard.

Philip has publically stated you made six figures trading land.... so subtract a five figure land loss and you're still up huge.

Also, as a business owner, I know that you know that every venture will not be profitable. I've been in ventures that lose money (and fortunately those that made it)... so all in all... its just a cost of doing [virtal] business.

My two.

Ok now this thread (in my eyes) is down to the sandbox level... sad....

Really? I thought it went up hill.

I agree Hiro.

It's really nice to see a productive discussion on a topic in these forums.

Just wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personally attacking those who have different opinions than you - if you disagree with an idea, state your case, but don't resort to name calling.

Some folks are very happy in Dreamland and with Anshe, and they will fight hard to defend her, if they feel even the slightest attack being made to her.

I'm not certain there is an easy answer to this debate, I once owned land in Dreamland and sold it at a nice profit...so I am guilty of playing into the landbaron's ways.

I could say, "Hey I was a noobie and didn't know any better" and that would be true, but it still feels week. I was anxious to own land, Ellis Island was pretty and so we bought our land there.

If I had been a smart noobie, I would have been homeless for a while...and studied the market more. Once I did that...and did the math, I realized I would be better off financially, owning Linden Land and paying any excess land tier to them rather than paying a landbaron. I get my land at no extra cost from my pocket and for me that is a no brainer. I don't mind some lag...it happens, even in Dreamland. I don't mind clubs and shops, I hope to have them one day. I do mind paying someone other than the creators of the game my hard earned cash. I just don't see any point in making someone else rich when they didn't even create the game I am playing.

I lean toward believing it is dishonest to advertise the land for sale when it is really just for rent, BUT it's kind of the same as LL if you own more then your given 512M...so I don't know if it's wrong, or just doing as LL does. I will say that Anshe has great information on her notecards. They explain - to the letter - what is involved in buying and selling land there.

I'll even admit that I am somewhat jealous that she is able to profit in playing a game that I love to play...and I secretly wish I could be like her...although that is no longer secret now. *grins* And I still choose not to contribute to her income.

I wish I could see it as cut and dried as the rest of you...but the lines are still very blurry.

That's understandable.

I don't understand this part. Why would you be better off financially? What do you mean by excess land tier? And surely there is a cost associated with buying land?

Well that's fair enough on both counts. Every one has different wants and needs and for different reasons. I don't think the sim community vs main grid is much of an issue. At least not now there are sim communties. The initial introduction of them of course meant some migration from the main grid, but expect an equilibrium to establish. The only sim community vs maingrid issue there is as far as I am concerned, is the personnal preference for each individual.

I'm sure many envy Anshe for various reasons. But I am sure the envy you have because she is running a successful business in a game you love would soon dissipate if you were to do the same thing. Anshe may correct me, but I bet the game has become a little less fun with all the hard work needed.

Liz, I am not getting money for play one game. I landscape sims, provide customer support and run one business. There are people employed by Linden Lab who do things that are quite comparable and earn money too.

So why should it be more ethical pay Linden Lab than pay somebody you could describe as freelancer if both grow the game and provide service to residents?

There is a cost, but 2 to 4 bucks to buy your land (first land) or even at $8L per meter, it's my investment, I pay LL, the creators of this game. And as a Premier Member, you really are getting one hell of a deal from LL. For $72.00 you get a $162.70 US value and that's at current trading of Lindens, not the overpriced amounts found on sellers websites. I'll play the LL way thank you very much...it's just a financially better way to play the game...as all the landbarons already know. *grins*

Making a six figure income doing something you enjoy...it may be work, but it's pleasurable work for the most part. I could handle a "little less" fun for that. I don't think any landbarons have any room for complaint. Not going to any pity parties held in their honor...not ever.

I'm still a little lost. Yes you get a one off option for 'first land' of 512m2 for 512L, which is about 2bucks. And yes you can sell it for more. But this is a one off option only. I am assuming the US$72 you refer to is the annual billing rate? Where does the 162.70 figure come from?

I am not knocking this option at all, the first land deal is an excellent offer. In fact, most residents who rent plots in private sims are premium and have already taken their first land, why not? I am not questioning your choice, just trying to clarify what the figures you quote refer to.

You are running a business, yes. You saw and opportunity and jumped on it, yes.
You are doing it in a game, yes. You are not playing the game? of course you are.

Didn't say it was or wasn't more ethical...just stated my preference and the direction I lean. It's important to fully understand a post before you reply, or ask for clarity as Hiro did. (I also know this from personal experience.)