Linden Lab is Destroying the Economy
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 05:38
From: Kazanture Aleixandre Right, actually i have been thinking for a time, what could LL give instead of L$500 stipend. It must be something that will cost 0 to LL and has a value for the residents. So; cant be land. But maybe somethjing else... but what? Actually Kaz, I can think of lots of things. But considering I just lost $36 on a L$ Sale because of the goofy rip-off way LindeX is set up, I think I'll just let LL solve their own problems and stay as far away from them as possible. 
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Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
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05-24-2006 05:47
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Actually Kaz, I can think of lots of things. But considering I just lost $36 on a L$ Sale because of the goofy rip-off way LindeX is set up, I think I'll just let LL solve their own problems and stay as far away from them as possible.  Nice editing, makes more sense 
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 05:50
From: Kazanture Aleixandre Nice editing, makes more sense   especially on 2 hours sleep. woot! LOL
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
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05-24-2006 05:50
From: Kazanture Aleixandre Nice editing, makes more sense  LOL And on 2 hours sleep! Woot! LOL 
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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05-24-2006 05:52
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer If you don't like it... buy a sim yourself and forbid all economy, and swallow the US$3,500 first-year fees. You can afford it, right?  Nope, because I don't have that kind of money to throw away on a computer game. Lewis
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 06:27
From: Lewis Nerd Nope, because I don't have that kind of money to throw away on a computer game. Lewis Agreed. Neither do I. That's why sim owners invest big $ in a sim and then have to rent land/merchant space to help pay for that. Which is why their interests are important to Second Life because bottom line... it's the sim owners and merchants that keep the system going. Remove the sim owners and merchants... and Second Life becomes something totally different... and probably fails entirely because LL wouldn't be able to support its staff on the extremely reduced income that would result. So in its own interests, LL really needs to make sure that Sim Owners and merchants get reasonable value out of their L$. Otherwise, merchants close shop and Sim owners raise rent prices.
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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05-24-2006 06:32
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer * Set up some L$ sinks that are immediately applicable and work, such as a "sales tax" that is added to the purchase cost of all sales, or a weekly "food requirement". Such things can be easily adjusted as the economy requires -- although to be bluntly honest, considering what I've seen of management so far I'd have questions as to whether LL would have the skills to administer such a powerful sink in a balanced and beneficial manner. I've seen the the food-idea thrown out a lot of times but have you ever pondered about the viability? Imagine you keep the 50L$ for the basics and charge them 25L$ for food a week. Isn't that just the same as reducing it to 25L$? Obviously that's not a sink but a complicated way of introducing a reduction. A sink must be based on something measurable that you as a user control. Forced food isn't an option. Sales tax isn't easy either as it's not really possible to see whether a transfer is related to sales or not. So you'll have to make it a "money transfer tax". A rough estimate: If we'd say that all transactions of 20L$ and over have a 1% tax with a minimum of 1L$ then you'd have a sink of 17.5M - 20M L$ a month. Taxes are an option but the implemenation will complicate SL. Paying 1000L$ will have you either lose 1010L$ or the receiver gain only 990L$ (or something in between). Not everybody will expect this. If they win 100L$ at tringo they expect to get 99L$ not 100L$. And sad enough it'll make doing multiple transactions very annoying. If we go back to the tringo example. You've 10 players, everybody agrees to donate 20L$ to the pot. The pot is 200L$? Nope, it's actually 190L$ and once the game is done another 1L$ or 2L$ is gone (depends on rounding). So even though taxes are a viable option I don't think they will be welcomed.
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Kelly Nordberg
Registered User
Join date: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 116
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05-24-2006 06:44
Not sure if this one has been proposed before:
charge 1$L for each teleportation.
In the case of invited TP, the person giving out the invite would pay.
In additional, maybe offer LSL to allow object to pay for teleportation: i.e. A business owner may have a poster/ Kiosk with teleportation script that teleport potential customers to their main store, which the business owner would pay for.
The 1$L is really nothing to a single resident, but consider the number of TP each week... the sum could add up, and may provide a significant sink.
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Kelly Nordberg ~~ Maiden Guard Armory ~~
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-24-2006 06:53
From: Kelly Nordberg Not sure if this one has been proposed before: charge 1$L for each teleportation. In the case of invited TP, the person giving out the invite would pay. In additional, maybe offer LSL to allow object to pay for teleportation: i.e. A business owner may have a poster/ Kiosk with teleportation script that teleport potential customers to their main store, which the business owner would pay for. The 1$L is really nothing to a single resident, but consider the number of TP each week... the sum could add up, and may provide a significant sink. Second Life would have to make using security scripts against the TOS since some residents would be trapped on the property or prevented from returning to their property. Also you have to remember all of thse island sims. L$1 a TP does not seem like a lot of credits but again others are forced to pay to make the big sellors of Lindens money. I have property located in 3 different areas that requires me to TP from one to another. Sorry! I do not like this idea. Also if you hit a no warning security script and get "sent home" it will coat you a Linden.
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Kelly Nordberg
Registered User
Join date: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 116
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05-24-2006 07:10
The the security script issue: Exception can be made such that, send home and eject from land does not cost anyone $L. (I know people can essentially create free teleporter home by having modified security script, but if they go through all those effort to save 1$L go for it.)
As for owning properties on different areas, consider that added cost of living. I have 2 stores and a home, I go from one to another maybe a total of 10 times a day, that $10L. around 3 cents.
This may also prompt resident to reconsider their land purchases/ rental in the future.
Now it doesn't mean it is really worth the effort to be implemented, the number of TP should be counted and find out the estimated sink, verse the cost of implementation (LL need to take someone off the development to work on this) only LL can answer these 2 questions.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 09:32
From: Blakar Ogre I've seen the the food-idea thrown out a lot of times but have you ever pondered about the viability? Imagine you keep the 50L$ for the basics and charge them 25L$ for food a week. Isn't that just the same as reducing it to 25L$? Obviously that's not a sink but a complicated way of introducing a reduction. A sink must be based on something measurable that you as a user control. Forced food isn't an option. Ok, reasonable counterpoints. However, to counter-counter... ;D A food charge wouldn't be a reduction in stipend any more than RL need for food is a reduction in pay. And it would be variable, according to the level of the economy. If the level is stable, food would be "free" that week. I know how to guage that economy level, but I'm not in the mood to give LL any more freebies today. This could even add a level of enjoyment to the game. Every week a person has to take at least 10 minutes to sit down and "eat" (an added game function). This would allow people to actually invite others over for "dinner", have public picnics and more. Myself, I think that would add a social aspect that would add to the enjoyment. Or, if someone simply didn't want to take the time, he could buy "fast food" for a little bit more. From: someone Sales tax isn't easy either as it's not really possible to see whether a transfer is related to sales or not. So you'll have to make it a "money transfer tax". That's correct. But people would become accustomed to that and just start figuring it into game play. Or, Linden Lab could simply ignore av-to-av money exchanges and only tax payments that originate from an object (vendor device). Sure, there will be a "black market" where people sell things directly... but there will still be the vast merchant and land network that would be involved... and that figure would be calculatable from week to week. Simple solution to an obvious problem. From: someone The pot is 200L$? Nope, it's actually 190L$ and once the game is done another 1L$ or 2L$ is gone (depends on rounding)....So even though taxes are a viable option I don't think they will be welcomed. Yes... that's what a "tax" and a "sink" is about.. removing money from the economy. No one ever welcomes a loss in funding, no matter how viable and necessary the reason. Take the people who constantly screem about their "right" to receive 50L free each week. They want that 50L and they're dead sure not going to part with the 16 cents to buy them. There's no reasoning with them. People have recommended charging L25 for texture uploads. That falls into the "unfair distribution of responsibility" catagory, as it heaps the financial burden almost solely upon the clothing designers and merchants... the ones who are already paying through the nose for land or rent. Imo, in order for a sink to be viable... it has to be evenly distributed across the entire population and it has to be fully and immediately controllable-- not by the end users-- but by Linden Lab, according to the current economic situation.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-24-2006 09:37
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer A food charge wouldn't be a reduction in stipend any more than RL need for food is a reduction in pay. Yes it would, because we don't need food in SL. Therefore this would be purely cosmetic.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-24-2006 09:45
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Ok, reasonable counterpoints. However, to counter-counter... ;D A food charge wouldn't be a reduction in stipend any more than RL need for food is a reduction in pay. And it would be variable, according to the level of the economy. If the level is stable, food would be "free" that week. I know how to guage that economy level, but I'm not in the mood to give LL any more freebies today. This could even add a level of enjoyment to the game. Every week a person has to take at least 10 minutes to sit down and "eat" (an added game function). This would allow people to actually invite others over for "dinner", have public picnics and more. Myself, I think that would add a social aspect that would add to the enjoyment. Or, if someone simply didn't want to take the time, he could buy "fast food" for a little bit more. That's correct. But people would become accustomed to that and just start figuring it into game play. Or, Linden Lab could simply ignore av-to-av money exchanges and only tax payments that originate from an object (vendor device). Sure, there will be a "black market" where people sell things directly... but there will still be the vast merchant and land network that would be involved... and that figure would be calculatable from week to week. Simple solution to an obvious problem. Yes... that's what a "tax" and a "sink" is about.. removing money from the economy. No one ever welcomes a loss in funding, no matter how viable and necessary the reason. Take the people who constantly screem about their "right" to receive 50L free each week. They want that 50L and they're too cheap to pay the 16 cents US to buy them. There's no reasoning with them. People have recommended chargin L25 for texture uploads. That falls into the "unfair distribution of responsibility" catagory, as it heaps the financial burden almost solely upon the clothing designers and merchants... the ones who are already paying through the nose for land or rent. Imo, in order for a sink to be viable... it has to be evenly distributed across the entire population and it has to be fully and immediately controllable-- not by the end users-- but by Linden Lab, according to the current economic situation. Terrific! Next we will have to use the toilet, take showers/baths and clean the house! Are you trying to get a goverment job in Japan? Also I have no problem with getting rid of the stipend for basic accounts. They dont pay for it do they? Also I pay for land too! I have no income to pay for it so it gets paid in dollars to Linden Labs.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 09:50
From: Fade Languish Yes it would, because we don't need food in SL. Therefore this would be purely cosmetic. Uh, we'd "need" food in SL if it was programmed into the game. If you don't buy food, you lose game abilities such as uploading textures, teleporting more than 10 times a day, etc. Ve haf vayz uf makeeng thees verk. 
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-24-2006 10:08
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Uh, we'd "need" food in SL if it was programmed into the game. A totally contrived, false need. A contrivance to mask a reduction.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-24-2006 13:15
From: Fade Languish A totally contrived, false need. A contrivance to mask a reduction. Fade, don't look now, but you just described all of Second Life. It is all contrived, artificial, virtual. There is nothing real about it. Everything that exists on this system is a virtual representation of a concept. I fail to see how a virtual need for food would be any different than any other contrivance of Second Life. Perhaps a different concept would suit better. How about a weekly "life tax" upon every SL user, just a straight charge to L$ based on current economic flow. If the economy is good, no tax. If it's bad, tax. It's just a different form of contrivance, but it would be equally effective. The basic purpose is to quickly remove excess L$ from the economy. In order for the economy to prosper, sinks are going to have to be applied somehwere, across the board. If not in the "contrivance" of virtual food, then in some other contrivance. Either that, or we just let LL keep flooding the board with millions of Lindens a week, keep watching the value of the L$ plummet and all stand around shaking our heads wondering why they didn't come up with something to correct the situation. 
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Visit ElvenMyst, home of Elf Clan, one of Second Life's oldest and most popular fantasy groups. Visit Dwagonville, home of the Dwagons, our highly detailed Star Trek exhibit, the Warhammer 40k Arena, the Elf Clan Museum and of course, the Elf Clan Fantasy Market. We welcome all visitors. : )
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-24-2006 13:23
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Fade, don't look now, but you just described all of Second Life. It is all contrived, artificial, virtual. There is nothing real about it. Everything that exists on this system is a virtual representation of a concept. I fail to see how a virtual need for food would be any different than any other contrivance of Second Life. In order for the economy to prosper, sinks are going to have to be applied somehwere, across the board. If not in the "contrivance" of virtual food, then in some other contrivance. Either that, or we just let LL keep flooding the board with millions of Lindens a week, keep watching the value of the L$ plummet and all stand around shaking our heads wondering why they didn't come up with something to correct the situation.  If you're going to have a sink, make it a fee for a service, like the current sinks are. This is by no means the same thing, this is a reduction dressed up, and I doubt anyone would not see through that.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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toilet next?
05-24-2006 13:30
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Fade, don't look now, but you just described all of Second Life. It is all contrived, artificial, virtual. There is nothing real about it. Everything that exists on this system is a virtual representation of a concept. I fail to see how a virtual need for food would be any different than any other contrivance of Second Life. Perhaps a different concept would suit better. How about a weekly "life tax" upon every SL user, just a straight charge to L$ based on current economic flow. If the economy is good, no tax. If it's bad, tax. It's just a different form of contrivance, but it would be equally effective. The basic purpose is to quickly remove excess L$ from the economy. In order for the economy to prosper, sinks are going to have to be applied somehwere, across the board. If not in the "contrivance" of virtual food, then in some other contrivance. Either that, or we just let LL keep flooding the board with millions of Lindens a week, keep watching the value of the L$ plummet and all stand around shaking our heads wondering why they didn't come up with something to correct the situation.  I dont want to deal with "feeding" my ava. Life is enough of a pain in the rear end as it is. I pay Linden Labs for a "premium" account and tier money. I dont need this! I have pointed out that the Linden means NOTHING to me! If it becomes worthless it is no skin off of my alvatar!
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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05-24-2006 13:44
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer Fade, don't look now, but you just described all of Second Life. It is all contrived, artificial, virtual. There is nothing real about it. Everything that exists on this system is a virtual representation of a concept. I fail to see how a virtual need for food would be any different than any other contrivance of Second Life. It is different because it's a forced need. You don't need to buy clothes, shoes, ... and nobody forces you to get a house or a car. All those things are based on choice. Similarly all the sinks that are in place charge for a feature that you are not forced to use. If you don't upload you don't pay for it, if you don't buy the land up for sale at L$ you don't need to, if you don't want o put up a classified you're not forced to. Anything that is forced without it holding a real value is just a reduction of the stipends. And in such cases you should just reduce the stipends instead of creating fake sinks.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-25-2006 00:53
Please, no bringing arbitrary biological necessities in our SecondLife! Let sinks be useful for the expensive luxuries and options instead. Let people's vanity drive them to use sinks... not some fabricated need for pixel hygine. (and yes I know that replacing premium stipend with extra tier would affect LL revenue making it unlikely. CONVERSELY however, considering LL makes more in tier payments in sims with small land owners than they do from sims entirely owned by a single person... it may be considerably to their advantage to ENCOURGE people to be small land owners instead of rent.)
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CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
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05-25-2006 02:22
From: Fade Languish If you're going to have a sink, make it a fee for a service, like the current sinks are. This is by no means the same thing, this is a reduction dressed up, and I doubt anyone would not see through that. This talk of virtual toilets brings into focus the real needs here: Aside from a viable and profitable business model, Linden Labs needs an ATTRACTIVE PRODUCT to bring in and keep residents/players call them what you will. Taxes, sinks and virtual hygeine are not attractive, particularly to anyone who has already paid to use the "services" you talk about via subscription. The notion of a "real" economy is a red herring, were that genuinely the case, LL would dispense with the L$ which by their own definition has no value, and facilitate real world currency transactions in world, allowing them to get on with the business of building the infrastructure of this virtual world rather than dabbling in a rather silly economic simulation as if it meant anything.
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linkin Slate
Registered User
Join date: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 11
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05-26-2006 16:00
The shortest distance between two points is a stright line, and one of the best ways to see where your going is look at where you came from,and what your direction was when you left. When i started (3 Years Ago)it was a hand full of sims nothing here no malls no clubs no things to entertian are selfs like you do now, the group of people back then where creators,all you see now is a product of what they developed back then and dreamed of. Looking at the second life web page i see the words what is SL? and clicking i go to a page that tells from the linden stand point what they see second life is,first take the name secound life ,well thought out im sure, and the use of word world is there alot i dont see the word game there understanding the intent of this place will also help you understand why the lindens do as they do, do you really think they would put this world to a end? Now you can debate all you want world<> game, all in the mind of the beholder, yes,but to limit sl to a place to hang out and a big chat room sickins me. Those people are here unjoying only cuse of the work done by those before them, the base of this place is content creation, the product of the creations has been buying and selling and all the systems you see now where created to fit the needs of people to continue creating and developing this world we love, dwell we used at first to promot creativeness those would benifit from haven sims or land that people went to to unjoy there creations, was there intent, now dwell has become unusefull to growth, one thing it has done is grouped people in certian spots dwell seekers free money , alot just haven slots or escorts to keep ya there to spend any money that you may have, then they sell off, a funneling of money from world not really heathly to the world i wouldnt think, problem in world is people allways go after the easy money and deveolpment tends to go in that area, just like when the hubs where used, land prices where high and all the store where around the hubs land out side the hubs worthless and no one explpored to far from the hubs, just like now you have all these spots seeking high dwell for profits, and the only reason they can stay open is cuse of the money the lindens pay out, the lindens all along have allways tried to get the people to make whats here, look at the main land linedn owned, once was big but now privite island basicly cover the map, we are ment to own this world be creative and the lindens give us the tools to do it, when i started my account cost me 150 dollor now you have free accounts, those that started then built what you see now,i say play on your free account, but if you want to buy somehting buy some money, or better yet, get out of the clubs and sex clubs take a class learn to build make your own stuff at the sand box, those that creat content provide a strong base for us to grow on and expand the tradeing of good and services, the intent of the lindens, thats why ebay and amazon.com gave 10's of millions to sl not so you can come play for free but becuse there is a market base here and being just a baby yet sl will become more then a chat room as you all seem it to be. Stop complaining get out and do something be a usefull person in are world to many times people say the sky is falling only to see sl take off for the better. Biggest problem here in sl is this people dont like change but life is change cant stop it, this is only my second post in all the 3 years i been here,and in the first i said how funny life is, we grow up going pfft to things are parents say only to become parents and see why they said the things they did,we that been here from the start have grow to trust and see the direction witch the world is heading, i have seen the population fall off only to see you all come back it happens over and over . Last words ( dream it make it and live it ) thats sl if you dont have a dream then your dead 
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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05-26-2006 21:05
From: Jopsy Pendragon Please, no bringing arbitrary biological necessities in our SecondLife! Let sinks be useful for the expensive luxuries and options instead. Let people's vanity drive them to use sinks... not some fabricated need for pixel hygine.  Oh come on now Jopsy... do you want SINKS or not? Regarding LL encouraging peole to buy small pieces of land instead of renting... they could do that. If they wanted to totally alienate and shut down their largest source of income on the planet. If LL arranges for people to buy small pieces of land at the cost of mere rent, the sim owners will have to shut down their sims. Our Elven sims would close down (the only way we could afford our US$14,000+ sim fees was to charge rent for land parcels). That would happen across the grid. That means groups would shut down... and it's groups that keep SL alive. Instead of sims containing large, beautiful, organized tracts of land, every sim would look like some huge, disorganized rummage sale (take a look at Junghee and see what happens when LL sells small plots). If LL went into direct competition with land barons... they'd be slicing their own throats. Mind you, after what I've seen the last 6 months I wouldn't put it past them... 
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Prester Joffre
Alchemist
Join date: 4 Dec 2005
Posts: 87
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solution
05-26-2006 21:19
1) as mentioned here before, introduce less L into the economy, ie no stipends. 2) switch land rents to L instead of US, this would mean more transactions too, which i can't imagine the Lindens would refuse since it seems their sole focus the last year. 3) add more tools for creativity. There is a dirth of cool things to buy because we are at the limits of what is possible with the current SL and have been for a long time. If the Lindens want more US dollars spent on SL they need to keep creative folk there by growing the creative possibilities.
#3 is what I really wanted to say. The lighting and flex objects are asking me to spend more time in SL, I had grown bored.
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Sweet Vitriol - Alchemic Design for Humans inhabiting the Virtual Ether
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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05-27-2006 03:07
From: Jamie Bergman Yes, I am tired of this socialist "free money" streak that permeates SL. Nothing is free, people! Oh, I don't know Jamie - I hear you've been doing pretty well out of freebies.
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