Virtual Banking and Economics

Is it permitted to ask what percentage of Ginko's assets are inside SL ?
If SL folds, do I recover any percentage of my investment? Do I even have anyone I can contact if SL is no more? I guess there must be a Ginko FAQ somewhere? Website? URL?

Not asking as indirect criticism. Genuinely interested. Might even invest a little if I knew more.

PS. I just checked on availability of Ginko domain names. Dot com is owned by a HongKong restaurant chain,dot org is for sale, but probably expensive due to connection with the food supplement. Things like ginkosl.com are available for the cost of registration.
Where do I look? I expected it in one of Nicholas's forum postings but I have searched briefly and cannot find it. If there is no website it would make me have strong doubts.

Sorry I'm helping to turn this into a "Ginko" thread, but it's currently our only "bank", and shouldn't they all have websites ?

I think the thread is going there whether we like it or not.

And yes, I feel the number one priority should be to ask, "Why should I invest in you? Let's see some credentials first."

Such is the case here. When Hank Ramos tried something similar, I actually thought it was a good (if strange) idea. After all, I've talked with Hank before in-world and seen his posts here. While I certainly don't need a loan, I would be more prone to trust him.

What I am not seeing in this is a proven portfolio of experience. I'm seeing conjecture... which is nice for the forums, but does not go a long way to proving I should trust Ginko.

Am I in the wrong for expecting proof of service to be provided upfront?

Why haven't I seen things like SLExchange mentioned yet? How about GOM? Those avatars are holding Linden Dollars -- in SLex's case, it'st he money waiting to be used to purchase things, and in the case of GOM, it's money that's waiting to be sold or money that was bought. What if SLex is shut down before you can buy something or withdraw your money? What if the same happens to GOM? Isn't anyone concerned about that, too?

Of course. I don't use them.

Though I do hear good things about the GOM specifically. And after over a million USD in trades, I would say they have a proven track record, for or against themselves.

Both those have websites. I want to find Ginkos.
One can use both those, and yet keep one's exposure very small. The whole point about Ginko is that if it is to be worthwhile, your exposure has to be big. The exposure is the whole point. What you get paid for.

What does a website prove? Someone had $8.95 to spend on a domain? Websites aren't a good way to prove something is legit.

You misunderstand me, James. I'm not that stupid. I don't want a website because the cost of buying it proves economic strength! Obviously it doesn't.

I want it for the explanatory information it would provide (didn't I ask for a FAQ?), and also because it would help me a little in assessing their intelligence, knowledge, professionalism, and commitment. Only a little, but you see - we have so very little to go on anyway.

And the lack of one (if that is the case) may speak volumes, being perhaps even more significant than what it would say if it existed.

And if a "whois" search showed it to be resident in a well-policed jurisdiction, that would be one tiny step closer to linking its obligations to an RL entity. At least a place to start.

Amen, Ellie!

I respectfully disagree. Second Life businesses shouldn't be expected to have real world websites. Any information you require should be made available in-world, via notecards and other means. You'd also be able to determine their intelligence, knowledge and professionalism through the notecards. Also, a whois on a website could return nothing -- it's possible to have those be anonymous.

In general I agree. But I think those soliciting really significant investment, and trust, would be wise to do so. Most of the others I can think of, including Anshe, certainly seem to agree. But yes, James. I respect your differing viewpoint. Maybe a website is quite a lot of trouble to go to. I would rather do more interesting things than build one.

This whole thread has turned against Ginko again. I'm still confused as to why people can't accept Ginko. Ginko Financial isn't a bank, they are an investment firm. It just so happens that they operate much like a bank with ATM's and interest. Someone made a comment about what happens if SL fails. Well then it really doesn't matter, does it? What difference would it make if you had the money in yours, or in Ginko? It's all the same. A matter a fact, you would have a better chance of recovering your money from Ginko then LL. LL states in their TOS that they can remove L$ from SL at any time for any reason and not be responsible.

Someone else said they wanted to hear from the people that use Ginko. Here I am, I use Ginko, and I stand behind them until I see a reason not to.

You can't regualte one business model and not another. If you regulate Ginko then you must regulate gambling, and clubs. Who is to say that my casino isn't ripping you off?

Life is about chance and opportunity. If you don't want to take a chance then you don't have to. But that doesn't mean you have to outlaw it so no one else can.

My neighbor smokes cigarette's in his house, yet i can't stand them and would never want to smoke myself. Does this mean i should picket and lobby to have cigarettes outlawed? No. People should be allowed to make their own choices including choosing where they want to invest.

These forums are getting out of control. People want SL their way and only their way. It's my money. I either bought it or made it working in SL. So I can do whatever the hell I want with it. Don't like it? Tough, I could give a rats ass.

A small percentage.



At the moment there is no mechanism to allow for that in case SL folds. Bare in mind that SL is not likely to just "fold" and definitely not without warning. Once we have the website set up such a disaster would be handled by converting the L$ balances to US$ balances at a previously normal exchange rate and either going ahead without SL (unlikely) or liquidating the remaining assets and paying people as big a proportion of their balance as this disaster allows. With the website set up, banning should not be a problem either since you would be able to just login and transfer the money to another SL account or, if we have that set up by then, sell the money.




We do have a registered domain name, but there is just nothing there for the public at the moment. We expect that will change soon enough.

Huh?

I think a couple of us are still curious where the credentials are and are actually genuinely interested in the practice.

Right now I see nothing more than generalizations, so I'm very skeptical myself. More real information is needed.

Thank you, Nicholas. Good crisp answers, and no disrespect for other's right to express concerns and ask questions. I'll wait for the web site to come up, and then maybe decide if i want to risk a bit of cash for your attractively high return.

Of course, as I myself pointed out, if I wait too long for the risk to come down, I'm likely to find that by then the reward has too

GOM is both incorporated and D&B Registered.

I withdraw my funds regularly from SLExchange. Though, you can do a whois on slexchange.com and verify for yourself that is the correct name / address.

Personally, I treat Ginko as a sort of a mutual fund, not a savings account in a bank. Actually, I use MS Money to track my Ginko, treating Linden$s as shares of stock, daily ginko interest as reinvested interest, and weekly stippends + whatever else I make and deposit into Ginko as dividends. It's an investment that carries all the risks of any other investment, SL or RL. Enron seemed like a great investment at one time, but it bombed. So obviously any investment out there has risks. At this time I am not aware of anything that would make me be wary of Ginko. I did my research on it, talked to it's members, found out where (in general) they are investing their money (gambling sites, SL vestures, etc.), their future plans (more web businesses, SL loans, mortgages, etc), and personally think it's an investment worth the risk. Also the amount of money I have invested is not small, but it isn't my entire retirement fund, either, so if Ginko folds, at least it wouldn't be as much of a catastrophe as if a corporation holding $100's k folds.

Ginko has made substancial progress on their infrastructure, trust, and other issues over the time they are in operation. They turned me from a non-believer into the LARGEST account in the entire bank.

These guys know what they are doing, we can't expect them to reach perfection over night. The only way this is gonna happen is that we keep Ginko in business and allow its reputation to build up and diversify.

I feel totally safe about keeping ALL my money there, and the sum takes up quite a % of Ginko's accounts. Do I want to increase my stake in the future? From what I see now, DEFINATELY. I wouldn't even blink or have doubts if I increase my stake from a 6 digit sum to a 7 digit sum.

So, before we head for the escape pod or mount Nich on a stick and send him into the volcano, can't we even monitor the situation closely before we start making conclusions?

I'm still waiting for some facts.

To be quite apropos, "show me the money."

No kidding.

If people are actually depositing money in this bank (somehow, I doubt it) then it is a massive scam that should be stopped.

Most likely we just have a bunch of ALTs trying to pump the suckers here.

If you have deposited in this bank, PLEASE read this wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

One does not follow the other. Why do you assume this must be a scam and can't possibly be an honest deal?



Believe what you will, but plenty of people know that none of these people are alts. Well not my alts at least.





We are not a ponzi scheme. I suppose skepticism is healthy, but you have no basis for this accusation. It's nothing but your personal theory and fortunately, it's incorrect.

This is insane.

What madman would hand over 2K USD without security to someone they don't have the address of either their RL business or RL home?

I'm sorry, you can not convince me that such a person exists in SL. He must be an ALT.

The other possibility is that there exists a money laundering / L$ currency technique going on that I'm not aware of which makes it sensible to do this.

Honestly, I'm doing my best to be neutral here since I have L$0 in this. What I'm waiting to see is as follows:

1) Credentials - a proven track record of experience with tangible evidence. A degree in financing or other such qualities would be a plus.

2) Accountability - under normal working circumstances (as opposed to extremes like LL folding), I want to see that my money is protected. Protection in the event of extremes is also a major brownie point.

3) Why should I invest in you? - I can invest quite happily in shares of other businesses I trust. What sets Ginko apart?

4) What information do I have that prevents scam behavior? A working business address? Collateral? A best friend's dog? Something?

5) Facts outside of Second Life - because the USD is so entwined with the L$, many people feel that one is directly related to the other. What I'd like to see is a web interface and some cold, hard data like the GOM provides with its stock ticker.

Not to accuse Ginko of this, but here's a resource on such a technique.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Pyramid schemes are famous on the web with chainletters, data mining, and "Free iPod!" scams. It's a nonsubstantial business model. While not exactly a Ponzi scheme, these are extremely common.

And yes, this is my number one fear in all things financial on the web. I respect business models that look stable and substantive for the long haul.



To offer an interesting example of a short-term business, Anshe Chung's current business model is one that strikes me as not long-lived. Land sales will eventually be server sales, so to keep that business model flowing, Anshe will need to switch gears eventually.

Same thing here. I do not see a L$ "bank" as being a practice capable of the long haul, which is why I continually ask for more information. I'm looking for signals to see that this has been thought through on more than a superficial level, and simple generalizations do not help my opinion there.

I read that a while ago, and that part made me rather paranoid about Ginko. Then I calculated %0.2 out of $3,000,000, which is about $6,000l. Making that much money every day in SecondLife to cover interest payments doesn't really strike me as all that extraordinary or impossible. Especially if you have multiple casinos and other projects running. So, while I'm still a bit wary of Ginko (as I said, I treat it as a stock/mutual fund, not a savings bank) it at least sounds plausible/possible... And no, I'm not anybody's alt, nor do I have anything to do with Ginko, other than having an account there. If they run with my money, I'll be just as pissed as anyone else getting scammed.