Poll: Do you object to seeing public analyses of the finances of big business ?
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-21-2005 19:38
From: Introvert Petunia Oh come now, you never posted anything that upon later consideration you wish you hadn't? I'll even answer that question for you. I know you have, and you know I have, and we both know that each other knows that.
Jamie is a human as the rest of us and was clearly upset. Could you call it unprofessional? Sure. Have you ever done something unprofessional due to passion? I have. I imagine that if Jamie could have wind back the clock and not have posted that he would have. GOM isn't some faceless mega-corporation, it's just a couple of guys. Just how long do you really think it is Right to pick him or them apart over it.
If you wish to hold this stance, then I imagine that you would not object to someone going back through every thing you ever posted regarding your SL enterprises and scrutinizing them endlessly. I have less than zero interest in doing so, but are you beginning to see my point?
I am not Ricky nor can I speak for him. But I know that were I in his shoes and subject to this crap, I'd likely give notice to the community that I was shutting down in 30 days, refund all L$ on deposit - as he has clearly said he would - and get out of such a petty and picayune community. I actually have reason to believe that Ricky is more tolerant of this crap than I'd be.
But damn, folks. Nice rant, however, the information about what profits they have made has been stated more than once by Jamie - including prior to all of the stuff about LL's exchange coming out. All I am saying is that if you say "I made $1200 total", don't be surprised if people comment on you having made $1200. Anshe's earnings have been the subject of speculation too, and were commented on in a magazine article if I recall via Philip (the Chinese woman in Germany thing comes to mind). If you don't want someone to know something, don't put it out there. You have very little control over information once you make it public. No mystery there, and nothing petty about saying so. I am not scrutinizing their business. I don't care how much money they have made. I don't even have anything against GOM particularly one way or another, I have just found their public behavior distasteful and unbecoming of a discrete financial company, which is why I use IGE. To each their own. If Ricky wants to pack up his toys and go home, so be it. That is how they seem to be behaving anyway - they aren't following up on support requests, requests for ATMs, etc.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-21-2005 19:41
From: Jsecure Hanks I belive UK law is quite correct on this one. The gist of it says you can speculate what you like. You can express an opinion. But you can't present anything as fact, except where you can prove it.
As for do you have a right to look into the finances of a business? Well, I'm not sure.
Any UK company has to send their summary accounts (Balance sheet, profit and loss) to companies house each year to be filed. These records are then open to public scrutiny. So in theory you can view the records of any UK company. But is that right? I'm not sure. I don't think companies or businesses should have to give any information whatsoever to any individuals except that required by law, as it's the company's matters.
I think the law generall says "You have a right to see the gist of how a company is doing financially, without getting into any real detail, and you have the right to see any information a company holds on you, but that's your lot". And I think that's a good stance to take. But you can run a business as a 'sole trader' in the UK. Then your finances are not 'open books', and its treated pretty much the same as an employee's wages.
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-21-2005 20:19
From: Cristiano Midnight I don't even have anything against GOM particularly one way or another, I have just found their public behavior distasteful and unbecoming of a discrete financial company Nice self-contradiction. We all so nice here 
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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09-21-2005 20:35
From: Hiro Queso So far the vote is going in the way of its ok in all but small businesses. I am interested in hearing the reasoning behind this from those who voted that way. Why do you believe a small business deserves more finanacial privacy than a larger resident business? I am going purely on size of business here. Scrutiny of those which enter the subject of their own businesses finances is another matter. It was the closest to my true opinion of "it's ok" period..no matter the size of the business. If it's a public SL business, analyze away!
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-21-2005 20:36
From: musicteacher Rampal It was the closest to my true opinion of "it's ok" period..no matter the size of the business. If it's a public SL business, analyze away! OK so give me an example of a non public SL business.
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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09-21-2005 20:42
the only thing I can think of is if it's some type of business on a private island with restricted visitors, or if there are vendors that will only sell to a certain group. Not sure if that exists. I guess my point is that all SL businesses are public and that was the closest choice to that. (in other words...it should have been an option)
I don't think that there should be a requirement to share info with the public though
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-21-2005 21:00
From: musicteacher Rampal the only thing I can think of is if it's some type of business on a private island with restricted visitors, or if there are vendors that will only sell to a certain group. Not sure if that exists. I guess my point is that all SL businesses are public and that was the closest choice to that. (in other words...it should have been an option)
I don't think that there should be a requirement to share info with the public though OK I am with you. I certainly do not think a big business is open season for scrutiny, whilst smaller ones are not. And how would you decide which is which lol? I am undecided overall. I definately think it's fair game to question or analyse any financial information volunteered by a person or business. I'm not sure if GOM has done that or not. The messy part of the whole thing is the business vs avatar identity thing. We are permitted (in the forums) to discuss the business, but not the avatar. Does that mean we can talk about Ravenglass, even tho we are not permitted to discuss the sole owner? With AnsheChung.com having the same name as the avatar, it gets very messy.
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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09-21-2005 21:11
Personally I don't agree with that policy but since there is such a fine line between discussing behavior vs. bashing someone, and most of the time people cross that line into bashing I don't see a way around it.
I never said that smaller businesses aren't open for scrutiny, I just said there isn't a choice that met my opinion so I chose the one closest. Smaller businesses are certainly open for analysis, however getting statistics on them would be much more difficult.
As for the business vs. avatar thing...specifically the one you mentioned...hopefully a LL response to the hotline question about that will clarify.
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
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09-21-2005 21:21
From: Hiro Queso So far the vote is going in the way of its ok in all but small businesses. I am interested in hearing the reasoning behind this from those who voted that way. Why do you believe a small business deserves more finanacial privacy than a larger resident business? I am going purely on size of business here. Scrutiny of those which enter the subject of their own businesses finances is another matter. because there was no choice saying it's ok to specualte on anyones income. this is an internet supported community. information and discussion should be open. why should businesses be protected by miystification of their earnings?
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-21-2005 23:58
From: Introvert Petunia Just so you know, Jsecure, in the US there is a huge distinction between privately held firms and publicly held (stock selling) corporations. Publicly held corporations in the US have to file quarterly "open books" accountings of their actiivities for public record. Here is a firm that specializes in putting these public records online. Warning: not safe for the easily bored. This isn't to say that there isn't a whole lot of "creative accounting" in the various filings, but they are public record. Privately held firms have no such reporting requirements in the US. I have no idea what Canadian law is on the matter. Damn, wish I had a company in the USA, I could do whatever I wanted 
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-22-2005 00:00
From: Hiro Queso But you can run a business as a 'sole trader' in the UK. Then your finances are not 'open books', and its treated pretty much the same as an employee's wages. You can run a business as George the plastic rubber duck in the UK  The key is the difference between a business and a company. In the UK, the term business means to do some business, i.e. to get off your arse and do something business like. But it has no structure in law. A company is a legal entity of some sort, and it is a recognised thing. If you are just a person doing some business activities, sure, it's a private matter for you, and it's nobody's business  EDIT: that last sentence, for non ambiguity, should probably read: If you are a person doing some business activities, sure, it's a private matter for you, and it's nobody's business except your own 
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-22-2005 01:11
From: Jauani Wu because there was no choice saying it's ok to specualte on anyones income. this is an internet supported community. information and discussion should be open. why should businesses be protected by miystification of their earnings? You're just saying that because you are pulling in a monthly income of of US$5 through the exploitation of newbies by buying their first land at cost and reselling it for twice that. Oh, and please explain what you mean by "internet supported"? By the way, I didn''t say you were *effective* at exploitation, and I'm just speculatiing, so it's okay. 
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-22-2005 01:25
From: Jsecure Hanks Damn, wish I had a company in the USA, I could do whatever I wanted  Uh yeah, ask Dick Cheney, or Bill Gates, or the Enron guys.  I did make a relevant oversimplification. Not only can a privately held firm not disclose its books, it can also be incorporated thus sheilding its owners from personal liability for corportate malfeasance. In fact, corporations in the US are granted most of the rights of "natural" persons; there are some who say this is a marvelous innovation, there are others who say it may be the nadir of "Western" civilization. However, most Americans respond to the legislative creation of fictive persons with "huh?". 
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-22-2005 05:38
From: Jsecure Hanks  The key is the difference between a business and a company. That's my whole point! You can run a business as a sole trader and your finances are between only you and the tax man. The books are not open. I am making the point that business in SL falls into this category, they are businesses, not companies.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-22-2005 05:39
From: Jauani Wu because there was no choice saying it's ok to specualte on anyones income. this is an internet supported community. information and discussion should be open. why should businesses be protected by miystification of their earnings? I never said it should. I just think it's very icky.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-22-2005 05:45
From: musicteacher Rampal
I never said that smaller businesses aren't open for scrutiny, I just said there isn't a choice that met my opinion so I chose the one closest. Smaller businesses are certainly open for analysis, however getting statistics on them would be much more difficult.
Yup was with you on that 
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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09-22-2005 07:25
Currently all resident owned businesses, without exceptions, are small businesses. Even the term "business" is still kinda exagerate. It is really more like we are talking freelancers here who try make some personal income. So when you discuss earning of GOM or Ravenglass or ANSHECHUNG.COM, then in reality in each case you are discussing salaries of one or two people. And this quickly leads to jealousy debates of personal income rather than addressing of any valid concern. It ends where the public tries to decide how much somebody should be allowed to earn.
It becomes worse when people start to speculate or bring up grossly exaggerated figures. Then you force people to either reveal private information about their real earnings, or the wrong numbers remain undisputed.
Anyway, you can just ask yourself: How would you feel if people here would start to discuss how much you may make in your (RL) job? Maybe somebody finds out if you own one house or car. Should we collectively discuss wether or not it is fair that you live in such nice house or own such expensive car? And so on...
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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09-22-2005 07:33
From: Anshe Chung It becomes worse when people start to speculate or bring up grossly exaggerated figures. Then you force people to either reveal private information about their real earnings, or the wrong numbers remain undisputed.
Yeh I have had to do this already. From: Anshe Chung Anyway, you can just ask yourself: How would you feel if people here would start to discuss how much you may make in your (RL) job? Maybe somebody finds out if you own one house or car. Should we collectively discuss wether or not it is fair that you live in such nice house or own such expensive car? And so on... This is exactly the icky feeling I was feeling. One that is no different to discussing someones wages.
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