Two questions on stipends

Omg that last comment on here what is wrong with you he was saying L is worth what a buyer is willing to spend. But the sellers are also a problem. They want to sell their L faster and quite often sell at a lesser value to do so. These people cause a viscious cycle of undercutting and are the ones to blame not the stipneds. I think alot of you miss the point that a seller can control what the value of L is. These people that undercut cause more of a problem then anyone.

All you folks whining about lost profits now because of the stipends be warned if they are gotten rid of you will see an even bigger loss in profits then what is happening now. The volume of the L wont change a damn thing and unless LL steps in things are likely to continue on tha path they are on regardless if they cut the stipend or not. As long as people are free to put things up for sale for any value they see fit this will continue to happen. They will want to sell faster and it'll just keep happening. You put to much faith in the big name people that are the ones currently causing the problem and you dont look past that.

You dont get that more sinks wont help hell they could take out 1/2 the L that exists tommorow and it wouldnt do a damned thing. We could go on and on over this but it doesnt get thru to you guys that the Stipend is the economy in SL. I honestly think alot of you just go along with the crowd and cant make up your own minds without someone there telling you how to think. The argument itself is hypocrtical for any of you to state that the stipends are causing the problem because hey guess what you people rely on it as much as we folks that you call socialists.

Wether you realize you do or not is the question and i dont think you get it. There isnt some magical LindEx fairy dumping freshly made L into the system on a regular basis to support any of the claims all money in SL has come from something like stipends and you rely on it yourself to earn your Profit. The ebay comparison is good if you dont want to spend so much on something you will stop bidding if it hits a certain point.

What your saying to do is essentially make everyone work and spend their own money to get the stuff done in the first place. Hey i got an idea why dont you lock me in a sweat shop and pay me 3 cents an hour but make me pay you 5 cents an hour? Thats the equivalent of what your asking for. You dont care if it hurts someone else so long as you can cover your tier or make some profit and thats the problem with you folks. You dont care about anyone other then yourself.

You can think what you want of me but you people are 10 times worse then what you think about me. As i state many times you folks are the problems in SL people that think like you and anyone that believe the BS you throw out there.

I thought the magical figure was 361?



Actually, no, L$500 a week is fine in my opinion.



I don't know if that was directed at me specifically, but if it was you are actually quite wrong. I don't want to "destroy the value of the Linden" by any means, because I don't have a problem with people being rewarded for talent, only those who are trying to milk the system for their own selfish gains.

My goal is to educate people that playing a computer game for money is silly, and that by doing so they are probably missing out on 90% of the potential fun to be had, because all you're doing is bringing the crap of reality into a world where there are almost no limits to be had in creativity, roleplay and imagination. It's a case of diversifying and shifting the focus, which starts with the advertising both on the SL website and in other places.

Lewis

Exactly Lewis they are waiting to cash out and doing it in 1 chunk which is causing that big problem. I quite agree over time it wont become as feasable a business model because they themselves caused a problem with inflation kinds funny isnt it? lol. I mean seriously that is my whole point someone like that and then the people that whine about it are the problem in SL

I agree totally, and it's good to see people coming out of lurk mode and finally breaking silence to agree against the vocal, but minority, "anti stipend" crowd and their alts.

I'm still not entirely convinced Linden Labs understand the importance of maintaining the stipend though. I would guess that 95% of the active population rely on it to maintain their presence in world in some way or another, whether they are a content creator, consumer, or both.

Lewis

The biggest cause of the economy problems are actually those who claim to be fully knowledgeable experts, then cause panic by posting stupid things like "end stipends", which destabilises the market.

I never understand how the 'free market economy' is a good thing whilst they are making a profit, yet when the 'free market' turns against them then they demand measures to correct a non-existant problem with the very thing they are campaigning for.

Removal of stipends = government control of the economy = communism.

So in essence, our "armchair capitalists" are traitors to the cause they believe in, and will be the first up against the wall when the revolution begins, comrades.

Lewis

Gigs examine what you said. If your not pro-stipends you make no sense at all. If LL reacts in the manner the Anti-Stipend people are hoping then the value will caused over priced Linden's. We that want the stipend to stay dont want to destroy the Value of L but we also dont want these idiots ruining SL for their own selfish gains. Premium user base that doesnt own more then 512 SQ m of land is likely to drop tier in the first place because frankly if they paid anyone or did anything its going to be pretty worthless if a few people have their way.

There isnt a solution to this problem other then LL taking over LindEx completely and ill say this again. The residents control LindEx when the person Lewis brought up dumps Huge Chunks in at a lower value it causes the problem not the volume but rather the person selling that volume. They could set it higher and just wait but that wont happen cuz people undercut one another. The stipends dont need to be gotten rid of but the system LindEx uses is flawed if they expect value to go up.

LindEx and the People Selling the L are the problem not the stipends so stop trying to ruin everyone elses time in SL just so you can make a profit is what it comes down to. Most of you fail to realize that point. Its got nothing to do with volume but when these people are free to toss out 50,000,000L or whatever at 5 points below value then there is a problem. The problem being setting that much at 5 points below. They are milking the system to make a profit and do it quick and then turn around and whine about it.

Why is it so hard for you to see the real problems here is what i wanna know. What actual valid argument can you bring up for the stipends being the problem? What proof do you have that they are? We Pro-Stipend folks can answer all the reverse of these and have time and time again but have yet to see a valid point made on your end just a bunch of screaming.

Stipends = government control of the economy = communism.

Flame bait douse with water walk away no comments for flame bait other then more water doucing and head scratching

I think you missed one but i can't remember the name off hand

Alby Yellowknife.

Stop with this BS. None of this is actually a communistic view point. You dont know what your talking about and prove it. Lewis is a bit off to with his comment but his is closer to the point of communism. Getting rid of the stipends makes it so everyone has the same Income coming in by default being 0L. The problem comparing SL to communism leads to the fact that if a seller sold something every single person in SL should get a cut of it if it was truly a communistic system.

Stipends are the economy and are what people make a profit off of currently without it they would get screwed over eventually. Angel just proves my point of not having a valid argument where as lewis pointed out rather abudantly the reasoning behind it. But yes Lewis' statement if taken in the correct context is in fact a perfect example of it being communistic government taking away money from those that currently pay for it not something done in a true free market.

Most of these people that rant on about the stipends being bad forget a few key points.
1. LindEx is Controlled by Users . When 1 user dumps in 50,000,000 L at 5 points below value its going to cause problems.

2. Stipends Are the profit in SL without them these people that rant on about them being evil wouldnt have a profit its just now they pull this tactic so they can make a short term profit and dont really care what everyone else or the future of SL really needs.

3. With any type of free market place the value of things is going to go up and down and thats a risk you know your getting into thats why its a "free market".

4. Money has been cut down heavily over the time SL has been around and in the past year that i myself have been here and this hasnt increased the Value of L instead it has continued to devalue. Even with the cutting of ratings which gave alot more L per week then a stipend did it has not increased in value. Taking out volume in any means hasnt helped at all so why would the stipends be any different.

5. You guys are the cause of your own problem your the ones that are selling the L at such a low value and your the ones that whine here trying to cause a panic among residents that the sky is falling and that inflation will occur which your counting on so your argument sticks with some people.

and finally 6. The residents of SL are the people that generate your profit and most residents do not approve of your rantings and have proven this time and time again.

I think those points if actually looked at in a serious fashion by these people may change some minds (very few due to the greed among them). The system for buying/selling is flawed and created alot of the problems not the volume. A perfect example here is Entropia Universe You can get in game money pretty freely there and its worth alot more then the L is. You know why that is? Because people need to bid on whats worth what. They simply have a better system for buying/selling.

I 100% garuntee you that if the stipends are gotten rid of you will see less profit and you will come back here and whine that money needs to be easier to get so you can turn a profit. As soon as it suits you you will turn your back on your own argument. Just because something doesnt suit a tiny minority in SL they want to ruin it. Figures as much.

SAVE OUR STIPENDS!!!!

After reading the comments here, I'm more convinced than ever that a middle ground exits.

The sole argument against stipends that I buy is the creation of money each week via stipends slowly hurts the SL economy. The reason being is if land owners can't raise enough lindens to pay some or all of tier, eventually they will get rid of the land, which in turn reduce content on SL. Related to that argument is that LL should be able to control the supply of new lindens into the economy based upon the need for currency, not due to premium account agreements.

One argument I'm not buying is that somehow premium account users are mooching. The stipeneds they recieve are paid for.

Now, given that Linden Labs has indicated that money sinks may be treated like a tax, in that the $L paid there will be accumulated and not deleted, it seems to me that can form the basis for a solution that covers all concerns.

Specifically -

1) Once a better balance of sinks to stipends is reached, no new money would be "printed" each week; the stipeds would instead be paid out of lindens collected by sinks.

2) SL residents either have time or money to invest in SL, and sometimes both. For those who do not wish to spend time "working" the stipend from $L taxes could be viewed as a paid abstraction, that the players is working "somewhere" for a $500 week wage during logged off time. In exchange for this conveniance, players pay the monthly premium fee to LL which helps all players.

3) By removing stipeds as the main source of new currency to the economy, LL obtains better control over the cash supply.

Other than the details on how to balance the sinks with stipend, or better put, of time wage payouts for paid premium members, I think this approach seems to cover all bases by addressing the underlying concerns on both sides.

Unless of course, I am missing something.

Actually, the cutbacks they have made over the last year have never offset the stipends.

-Hunter

While I agree that nobody is effectively 'mooching' you have to keep in mind 1 important thing regarding the economy. Premium accountholders pay REAL $US to LL which they put in their REAL banks. They don't put that into the SL economy. So yes, you are 'buying' SL$, but what you use to buy them never hits the SL economy. So the net effect on the economy is still more SL$. It is never offset or balanced.

-Hunter

EDIT- I should point out that I am NOT in favor of eliminating stipends.

Agreed.. Stipends are a form of Welfare. Except, instead of taking the
money obtained from Sinks (aka: Taxes) and using it to redistribute stipends,
LL just prints new money like it was water. Leading to inflation.

You are correct. Stipends have run wild and given us the HyperInflation
we have today.

However, the USD from premium accts does go to keep the server going and the grid monkeys paid. If that doesn't help the economy, I don't know what does.

Your use of the word WELFARE in every argument is fallacious.

For premium accounts Linden Labs could be said to be exchanging our USD into L$ and is therefore acting as an independent (of the Lindex) Currency Exchange not a Ministry of Welfare. This presupposes our premium account fees are not being used to pay for service, as they give this away for free anyway.

The fact that your second statement regarding their flawed method of doing this is true, admittedly might cause a problem, but it doesn't help your case to use inflamatory and technically erroneous terms. I expect more intellectual rigour from even those I disagree with.

Ok Listen up here. Removing the stipends forces residents to go out and buy all their L. The stipend has and was never a problem. And hunter remember 1 thing,. The ratings bonuses where counted into the stipend and has taken out alot more L then what the stipends are worth. The bonus was towards the stipend. The thing is People like R&D want people to believe that the stipends are the problem so they can get rid of it.

Sure it gives LL some better control but no the wage thing does not address the issues of both sides as we actually pay for the L already. Stipends are not a handout unless you bought a lifetime account back when that was offered. If LL wants to improve it they should start charging these people the 10 dollars a month they should be paying. They are the ones getting a free ride. We get 500 dollars a week and we pay for it however these lifetime members get 500L a week and dont pay for it.

Is that fair when the rest of us have to pay for our 500L a week? The problem is its just something that doesnt need to change. They want the L value to go up this doesnt address their side of the argument at all really. They are hoping that the L value will go up once the stipends are gotten rid of. What you fail to realize their side of the argument is requiring that no one get any of what they call "free money" or "welfare" in SL. They want to take any new L out of circulation thus forcing us to buy off LindEx so they can make a profit.

Thats the problem most of us have. In fact I'd be happy if LL jsut lowered the stipend to what 1.25 usd a week will buy. That works out to it being fully paid for. The stipend is a little over site for those that are premium but we are entitled to at least 1.25 usd worth of L a week. We pay for that. Easy thing would be crediting us 1.25 a week if we dont buy L we can put it towards payment and only have to pay 5 USD then. Again though there isnt a simple solution for a middle ground as the Anti-Stipend people arnt looking for a middle ground as opposed to getting their side of the argument to be true.

Its all about profit to them sadly and they caused their own problems. They wanna push the blame somewhere else so they go hey the stipend is a good target and mabye it'll increase my profit. The sad thing here is LL isnt seeing the real problem and i really think they need to take a closer look to see what it really is.

I like your line of questioning in the OP and it's constructive.

Pro-stipend: No, more is NOT better. Like medicine, air. and food, taking too much is not necessarily good for you.

My stand is we hold the stipends exactly where they are and find solutions using that as the platform. The reasons are:

1. Premium stipends have been a constant and as something that is supplied as part of a paid service would be commercially problematic to change. It's something like paying an ISP a fixed amount and they decide to lower your bandwidth.

2. If LL wanted SL to be purely business oriented then yes they should remove the stipend. But that's not the apparent goal of LL. They're looking for the happy medium that will allow business to coexist with hassle-free play and with education and outreach. This is where the stipend comes in. It allows the worlds to coexist. It's not going to be always pleasant for the players who are in it for the money but the opportunity is still there.

2a. Scenario: Abolish all money. Result: Things will either be given out freely, will be selfishly kept, or a barter system will appear. This will kill the business sector completely and remove one of the motivations for creating new things. Also kill a the fun aspect because of not being able to get some fairly unique items. So, not a good idea.

2b. Scenario: Abolish the stipend. Result: people will be more careful with their money (not good for business because of severe volume decrease). People who are in it for fun will either have to spend more $ or do without (Not good because a lot are in SL to avoid RL stresses, and this will put it back). Those who do not wish to buy money on the lindex, if they still choose to stay, will:

2b1. Work for money (but many are avoiding this because their whole point of SL is to get away from workstress).

2b2. Give items freely or start a barter trade system (not good for business because no money moves).

2b3. Simply do without (decreased fun, and increases the chances of player leaving). This is also bad for business because there's nothing moving.

2b4. Some will leave because they will feel cheated by the stipend removal.

Now while there are a good number who are ok with buying their Lindens on the Lindex, one must consider the impact on all sectors including those who will NOT be willing to buy Lindens.

So my stand remains, hold the stipend at the constant rate and find solutions using that as the platform. Prices will go up? I expect them to and maybe they should. We need more sinks? That will work. I'm saying as this is a world where creation rules in the builds and scripts that shape the world, we can channel that creativity to finding better solutions than just using sledgehammers trying to pound the Lindex to a better value.

They should also consider the people that can only afford a premium account and still want some land to do something. And yes your view are quite astute as to what getting rid of the stipends will do in all scenario's there they make sense and prove a point i keep trying to make. While these people come here screaming the stipend is evil how do they make their profit? Selling someone elses stipend which was given to them for a product they made. Now if you get rid of that aspect and people are forced to buy money then you will see a decline in Sales.

If LL really wanted it to just be a business model they wouldnt give us the ability to chat or animate or modify our avatar's so heavily as they do. There is a social part of SL and thats what most people enjoy. The thing is the people selling the L can easily change its value for the better if they'd get together and work on doing it. Will that happen? No, simply put they wanna turn a profit as fast as possible and sell the L under value to do so.

This is the problem when people buy land they cant afford in real life and rely sheerly on the business end of SL to cover their tier and/or make a profit. While they may not be here for fun and to socialize the vast majority of SL is and there are some that know how to balance the two. I for one can balance the two but dont feel the need to trade in L i would earn for real life money.

I made sure i could afford my tier payments on a regular basis. I pay 60 USD a month currently to LL i have 2 avatars both premium 1 on a 40 dollar tier base with premium and one just premium to cover a small bit of land i needed. Now i pay 720 USD a year. I made sure I could. You run into people like land barons that made some profit and kept getting more and more land and now cant afford that land without the L > USD thing. Now when they go on LindEx are they going to put it at a higher value ? Answer there is no.

What they are going to do is sell it as fast as possible so they can cover it for that month or whatever. Now there is a problem with people using SL sheerly as a business tool as its unstable and they know it is. The stipends do balance the economy and quite well to. In fact the stipends make up the economy and these people's profit. I get a chuckle from the people that are against stipends staying because they themselves rely on them.

If they have such a problem with stipends they why open a shop? They are essentially taking someone elses stipend. They might as well just put all their sales in world into classifides or sinks if thats how they really feel same can go towards rent or anything that requires someone to pay you L for something in world. Its kind of sad to come on these forums and see these people. It makes me sad to know how low a person will go to make some money.

In a word ... no.

Now if all land was owned by LL, LL centrally planned all builds, prohibited private sales between individuals, and assigned each SL resident a job according to their ability, then we'd have communism.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism ALL have the government controlling the economy. The difference is the degree to which they do.

SL is not Socialist. LL does not own the resident-run businesses.

SL is not Communist. LL does not control how we do things or what we do. We also own property (land, objects).

SL is a Capitalist system with a welfare system that supports creativity and outreach. I like it.

I really like that idea Cannae. I think it would help a lot. The only thought that pops into my head is what would LL think of it? I have a feeling that by banking all those so-called sinks they may be planning on converting them to USD eventually and they may not like letting go of them.
Applauds to you for a really good suggestion that addresses the concerns of both sides.

Hi Lina...we must stop meeting like this

At face value, it may seem that people are ranting about the evils of the stipend. But what they really are ranting about is the 'printing' of L$ by LL to provide them. I'm sure if LL could continue to provide stipends without just printing them out of thin air, you wouldn't see any argument from anyone about keeping them.

-Hunter