So you hate Capitalism in SL...

Ok I'll actually voice my opinion. For starters the second post on this thread I'd like to comment. That we do NOT need these people having more power or more of a voice with LL that would be a bad thing as they already have to much say. The smaller people are the ones that need a bigger voice in SL not the people making money. While making money is good and all and can help people pay their tier i feel they should not be relying on an SL income to pay real life bills or tier.

Those people that are disabled sure this is a good way for them to supplement some income. But i gotta agree with Lewis as well to many people are here just to make money and dont really have all of SL's interests at heart. Me and Lewis are quite alike in the aspects that we provide content for people but are not out raking in some real life profit off of it.

First off let me start by saying here that SL really isnt a capitalistic society its all owned by the people inside the game and anyone can be a consumer or a seller. Another problem comparing SL to real life is the fact that sources are unlimited in SL you cant really sell an unlimited number of something in real life because eventually you run out of resources the theory of supply/demand alot of people use is more based on products as opposed to money. When a product becomes more scarce the value of that product goes up.

As money supply would go down people buy less and less actually decreasing the value of the product. There are several theories out there but i do feel alot of people in SL are in over their heads in payments. You got people that are buying alot of land and quite often they cant afford it in real life and begin using their L > USD sales to subsequently cover that. Sadly as they dump in money it needs to sell at a decent rate and quite often they sell at a lower value to cover that tier payment and this makes the rate the L falls down faster.

Becoming to independent on an L > USD income i view as the problem in SL. While you can use it for business alot of people just use it for strictly that and that creates some tension. When these people reccomend some things its quite often taken in scrutiny because of actions they have taken in the past. There are alot of people in SL that wouldnt benefit from the stipend going down or getting got rid of and there are definately alot of people that Wouldnt benefit if those that are making money had a stronger voice. I think the little folks need to stand up more and make things to protect themselves from the likes of people just out to make money.

We have to remember that income from SL, or SL even existing, is not guaranteed. When that time comes to an end, what are those people going to do? Just imagine it when they go for a job interview.

"So, you've run a successful business for three years now?"

"That's right, selling non existant virtual online land to people in a computer game."

"So.... you've spent the last 3 years playing a computer game?"

"Yes, that's right."

"Thanks for coming, we'll be in touch" (not)




Unfortunately "making things" would just send people down the "capitalism is the only way" route, when we know that to not be true.

Linden Labs need to introduce more things for the casual to medium player, and stop concentrating all their efforts on appeasing those who own whole regions or multiples thereof. Advertising that there is actually more to do than just making money would be a great start.

Lewis

Only a minority in SL actually do sell things or make a profit off of SL. Its quite true if you take a look at the population vs the amount of shops etc. Now also we run into the fact that land barons here are people that buy up a ton of land to make a profit. Next we come into the fact that there really isnt a nuetral ground. There are 2 groups for the anti-stipend people. Some actually think it will stabalize the economy which is unlikely to happen and others are just screaming it to make a short term profit. Alot of what we run into with the one side is that they arnt looking for a nuetral ground but are looking for something that is going to fix the economy.

A virtual Economy based heavily on real life is what we have in SL. However there is no such thing as a stable virtual economy because of the resource issue i previously stated. As long as someone is able to make an unlimited copy of something things wont ever be stable. People dont realize is that there is alot of potential problems getting rid of the stipends causes and i dont think alot of them care to see thsoe problems. There are many problems with the economy in SL and alot of those wasnt brought on by the supply but rather by the residents themselves. We're to take the blunt because they made mistakes?

Over the past year alot of money has been taken out of SL that was coming in before hand. Ratings went down dwell went down etc. The prices didnt heighten then but most people didnt heavily complain because we still have money coming in. However there are some people wanting to threaten that for no real reason. Simply put if they have such a problem with how SL is now they can leave. Just quit. Dont ruin the experience for everyone else because you feel cheated for taking a risk. Thats the point of a risk sometimes they pan out sometimes they dont.

If you gamble and lose you dont go to the owner of a race track or whatever and complain that you were cheated etc. Forcing people to buy L isnt a really good idea but that seems to be what alot of people are hoping for. All this is going to do is alienate even more people. We have already basically alienated all new comers now that arnt premium accounts right off the bat and that really isnt quite fair.

Now I'm confused. I went back and read the second post, and I'm still not sure who "those people" are.

Also I don't really understand why it's wrong for someone's job to be SL. It doesn't automatically follow that SL is damaged by that.

Without naming names, I know of at least one full-time clothing designer who makes a living here. And considering the sheer number of hours and all the hard work, I say more power to her. If she couldn't make a living here, she wouldn't be able to create all the nice things she does. She'd be out working 40 hour week and maybe making something in SL IF she had any energy left after RL. My wardrobe would be poorer as a result. I aslo know that she privately supports community causes...

I think what you're really objecting to is people who manipulate the currency market - a mere handful, and likely not content creators at all.

I guess part of what I'm feeling is a knee-jerk negative response to telling an entire class of people how to live without knowing the specifics of their behavior or situation. I don't believe you can lump together such a varied group of people.



The model already exists in RL. Anything digital, like music, can be sold in unlimited quantity. All SL content is essentially digital. The fact that you can sell a lot of them means that you can keep the price low. It doesn't do anything to the $L supply.

The exchange between buyer and seller and Lindex is a closed cycle. No new $L are created. A small percentage of $L is destroyed as it cycles through the Lindex. Money supply issues are directly related to Linden labs putting more $L in through stipends, etc. OR taking $L out through sinks. No one else has the power to change the size of the available pool.

I meant groups as far as making things. Some kind of union to stand up for the rights of people that arnt just here for money. And yes LL needs to focus their attention away from the minority of people in SL and focus on those of us just here for fun. I for one co own about 2/3 of a sim. We dont use any profit made in SL to pay tier it goes towards improving the club, the land, or whatever. Its not a big deal. Im here for fun and i made sure i could pay my tier.

I plan to make content in the future and it will just be pumped into the club or used to buy things for myself in world. It's hard to grasp why these people that are just here for money act in such a manner =/

Jennyfur can probably post the thread where people discussed SL on your resume and RL jobs, but I'll throw in my experience.

I had to take a year off traditional work for various personal reasons. I continued to create stuff in SL and worked on a couple of projects here where my professional skills were useful. (I'm a technical writer by trade)

When I went back into the workplace I listed my experience here. 3D modeling, graphic design, etc. fits beautifully in my resume. It took me 6-weeks to find a job. About average. Everyone I interviewed with was fascinated by the various ways a 3D world could be used. I included some of my work in my portfolio and it was very well received. I got two job offers btw.

If you already work in a field which demands creative skill, then SL experience will fit in perfectly. One of my friends may end up with an entry-level animation job based solely on what she taught herself in SL.

While I'm pro-commerce now (not necessarily capitalism exactly but close enough)...

I do nostalgically miss the old days when (to me) the L$ wasn't for trade for USD. It was an in game 'score', that couldn't be bought.

(well except through buying land with USD and then re-selling it which unfortunately skewed the results).

If you had popular attractions you got dwell, your score went up. If you had cool stuff, you got ratings and your score went up. If you had things for sale, they were bought and ... etc.

I loved competing with others for position on the leader boards. Closing the gap between myself and others who had works I was just in awe of... like Damien Fate, Siggy, and Changling Fate and so many others.

Not that I looked at the L$ score as much as the ratings score but before it was so easy to just 'buy' points that was fun to watch too, just to get a feel for where I was in comparison to everyone else.

I really do miss that.

The problem is Surreal, in a capilotist soceity there are still checks and balances. Gambling games are checked frequently and have to adhere to a standard. The stock market is regulated and if you attempt to manipulate it in any way you get a fast visit from the SEC, the Treasury dept AND the IRS. Things are done fairly in a capitolist society, or at least as fairly as can be sen at he time. Linden Labs has created a totally unregulated economy. Gambling and Contests and gaming are regularly rigged. We have ppl dumping large blocks of L on e-bay and claiming falsely that stipends or other isues are creating the problem when thier only real problem is we are not totally dependent on them selling L to get by. SL is not capitolist in any way shape or form. We have shops in which the owners run around looking for free content, they box it up and set the price at several hundred L's to prey on unsuspecting new folks who don't know a bit of searching they can have the same flawed items for free. I'm not saying kill capitolism in SL. I am saying let's have a capitolist environment complete with the regulation against corruption that goes with it. Right now SL is a con artist's paradise. And while we're at it, also employment in a capitolist environment is PAID. Jobs in SL for the most part do NOT pay. We need a required minimum hourly wage and/or commision in SL that is enforced.

Couldn't have put it better myself... in fact I probably have said it like that several times.

The question is... are Linden Labs prepared to recognise the thousands of us in that boat, and our needs -or just continue to promote "money money money"?

Lewis

So are you proposing something like a guild system? We are not employees, so union doesn't ring true for me. Guilds used to regulate quality, honesty and pricing among other things as well as dealing with governments, etc.

If it's only a handful of people in an area, then one of the members serves as a Guild Master making sure everything is proper in their town, while still being able to do their craft. The problem in converting that to an SL model is population. You would require someone or several someones to spend all their time just taking care of the infrastructure.

"I've taken advantage of my existing skills in economics, marketing, communication and various arts to generate enough revenue in a micro-economic online system to actually live off of.

If your company has an online presence and needs to represent itself better via email, web content, shipping logistics, marketing, or customer focus groups, I'm certain I can apply what I've learned in that environment to be of value to your business. I enjoy challenges, I'm flexible, well-rounded, self-motivated and capable.

If you think I can be of service... I look forward to hearing back from you. "

(no.. I'm not living off my SL earnings, this is just an example post.)

What you say is important. What wins the day is how you say it.

I would like to ask people to please stay on track. We have some promising discussion going on here. Please keep personalities out of it and continue to suggest your solution and be prepared to defend it.

The "land baron"for want of a better term) has to pay tier fees to Linden Lab, and in most cases the actual profit that is made over and above the tier fee is pretty minimal.

Personally, I don't think the people who run Linden Lab are stupid (I don't necessarily agree with them on a lot of things and I may find them somewhat distasteful, but stupid they are not) so if allowing the rental of land was not a good fit with their business plan would they allow it in the first place? I doubt it.

I'm sure there are things on a 'resume' that could be of benefit from SL - but I was taking a more tongue-in-cheek attitude of most people won't understand what this game/platform/whatever actually is.

Not everyone has real life qualifications that mean their experience here is of value. I mean, I have a small store which I run - but that doesn't make me qualified for a store manager position. Hell, with what I do in SL I would struggle to flip burgers.

My real life qualifications, comprehensive that they are, do not really lend themselves to Second Life - and my Second Life experience does not really lend itself well to a real life job.

Lewis

Well, how do you know whether they're having fun or not? Have you made them all take part in a survey?

"Perhaps never even loggin in"......yea, "perhaps". And on the other hand, "perhaps not"!

And of course the vital point that you have missed - boring though it might be to you, some people might actually find that "just making money" is their idea of fun.

Anyway, why worry if SL collapses? Its "only a game" after all.

(rather than edit the previous post I'm following-up)

I don't think that we can go back to that earlier point of time, even though I prefer it to the current model. SL is too big to 'close' the exchanges effectively, people will buy and sell them anyway. LL's model depends on RL USD's coming to SL in a variety of ways, and selling new land for USD is one that would spoil an economy that existed strictly for 'score'.

But it was a different model. I think much of the anguish that several feel is probably due to the growing pains of gradually letting go of the mechanisms that supported the 'score' based economy rather than the 'commerce' based economy. Both simply cannot co-exist effectively.

Yes, but those who have been living beyond their means, supported by an income from SL, or even exclusively from SL will suddenly find themselves up a small inland rivulet with no visible means of propulsion.

Whereas I'll just lament the good times I've had, find another computer game to play, and keep in touch with the various friends I've made, through Yahoo Messenger or something.

Lewis

I fully agree with you, but the question is how do we instill these checks and balances? Will LL let us impliment a user form of checks and balances, if so, will the people enforecing the rules be employee's of LL, will they be volunteer's? Or would they be paid some sort of compensation by business owners? Also Will they be any more useful then what we have now in the way of Lindens?
I'm open to suggestions and will push for something that seems like it will work, without being too much of a burden on the regular every day person who's not into the economy part of SL and has no interest in a government. And with allowing people to not be a part, how do we enforce anything? All an economic griefer would need to do is say "I don't want anything to do with that!" and be immune to any of the rules or guide lines, would there be a trading cap/buying selling cap on the lindex....or dealing with amounts of land owner ship before someone is required to become a part of it? And what rules could be implemented to keep the system from being gamed?

(bolding mine)

Hmm. I think that most forms of non-capitalism can co-exist peacefully along side capitalism, without needing to replace it. (Unless, like in my previous posts, the definition of what money represents needs to be changed.)

For example, the money paid to LL (for a private sim) may be commerce in RL, but it isn't within SL.

Sponsoring a sim where there's no requirement to buy or sell anything is entirely feasible. Sure $195 a month may be out of the financial reach of many citizens, but that doesn't rule out teaming up with someone who runs a private sim to start a collaborative and non-capitalistic project.

I recognize that there are certainly a few exploitive profiteering types that are enjoying the competative challenge of 'winning' by profiting more than others do. But we can't exile them any more fairly than we could exile someone for being grouchy and argumentative. (as long as both play within the rules, of course) And I wouldn't want to ban either in any case.

Any attempt to make it less profitable (or more costly) for the high profiters also hampers the survivability and incentive to contribute for people that play in the break-even league.

I'm not sure I see how capitalism is ruining SecondLife for anyone... (except the unfortunate folks that have casino's or shopping malls suddenly appearing next to them). There's plenty of open land, pick your neighborhoods with care and it's much less of a problem.

--
Why can't we all just get along.

I'm a socialist/anarchist. Amazingly enough, I have no problems at all with the capitalism found within SL so long as it doesn't involve theft or IP infringement, because the capitalism in SL doesn't require participation in order to survive.

Now, if you're taking freebies and selling them at outrageous markup, yes, then we'll talk - but that's parasitism, not capitalism. (Admittedly, there's a fine line there IRL.)

No what i mean is the smaller people the thousands of us standing up for ourselves in a group of some sorts. Making our voice and our cocerns louder. Giving the people that make money a bigger voice doesnt lead to a bright future for SL it leads to it becoming more of a business model then it already is and ruins things for the people of us that opt not to play in that manner.

Alot of actions that have been made in the last year seem to of been a way to appease the people making L in SL. How many of the changes have helped a more social player? Sure we got some new graphical stuff lights and flexi prims but economically things are getting tight for us. We get 500L a week which we pay LL for and thats it unless we sell content on top of that. And that 500L a week is often spent on items in the world of SL. I'll bring up something i feel about Dmitri's quoting about jobs requiring some sort of Minimum wage.

As long as LL keeps taking more money out of the game this is going to be increasingly hard. It'd be more feasible if alot of the changes made over the last year never happened.
For someone like me that runs a club that isnt in it for the money or popularity it tends to be a problem in fact. As me and my partner are already putting our stipend into the club weekly. I can garuntee you that the amount of viable work in the last year has actually dropped immensly. If i had more money to actually pay someone sure i'd see it as more viable.

Even dancing and escorting is becoming kind of useless. The new comer market for alot of them just went downhill with the change LL made. If people had more money to spend they would be more liable to buy more. The stipends may increase volume but that doesnt automatically mean the L value is going to go down. As it is now its very open and that is its flaw.

Lina (and Dmitri) --

The idea of a minimum wage, (or, more relevantly, a "living wage", seems kind of silly to me.

The "Cost of Living" in SecondLife is L$0.

Land is a luxury item, or for business ventures.

--
If not commerce.... then what instead?

Well, any TRUE capitalist who is making money in SL probably DOES care about the game, doncha think? I mean, why kill the hand that feeds you? How many people do you figure are really and truly ONLY here to make money? Is that just an assumption, or have you verified for a fact that they are only here to make money?



So? In what way, specifically, are they hurting me? or you? or anyone else?

I tend to think that the only kind of "people we don't need here" are those who go out of their way to ruin other players' experiences. People such as griefers and their ilk. People who just cannot be tolerant and respectful of others.



So? If you have a problem with that, buy your land only from Governor Linden. If you are concerned about others, then set up your own private sims and sell the land at your cost. You'll be in competition with the "Land Barons", and people may flock to your land instead of theirs, assuming price is the only consideration.



I've heard this argument an awful lot, even used it myself on occasion before I got more sense. It's the same kind of argument used against Microsoft all the time that it is all Microsoft's fault that they are so big and rich. Now, I despise Microsoft as much as anyone, however, in all truth, it isn't their "fault" at all. They didn't hold a gun to anyone's head and say "you must buy our product!!'". Consumers CHOSE to give Microsoft their money. Let me say that again: They CHOSE to give Microsoft their money. Yeah, it was easier; Microsoft was smart, they intended it that way. That's just good business sense. Nothing inherently evil or wrong in that. People really need to take responsibility for their own choices and actions, instead of "playing the victim" and saying it is the fault of all the "rich people". Buy from someone else, preferably a small, struggling business fighting against the corporate powerhouses. Just remember, though, that little companies become big companies when given a healthy dose of success by the populous.

Now, on the subject of peer pressure, it rarely ever works in a MMO. Here's a recent post of mine discussing the same issue in another forum:





I think I qualify as a "casual observer", and can quite unequivocably state that such is not clear to me. I don't see a direct correlation between spending money in SL and "greater success and LL attention". To me, the more TIME I spend in SL to make things and sell them, to participate and get involved in the game, the greater my success. I have really no idea about the ability to spend money to get the attenion of Linden Labs. I suppose it would be dependent on what you spend money on that MAY get their attention. Like, for example, if you showed up at their front door with a satchel full of cash and said "I want to invest in you!", then yes, I think I can see your point. Again, I come back to the same question: So? What is so wrong with that?

I think that a great number of good ideas from all segments of the population get ignored for one reason or another. I also tend to think that the vast majority of "good ideas" that do get consideration come from the greater body of the playerbase, not from the "elite few" you allude to in your diatribe.

I do agree that, all other things being equal, feedback should be considered on equal footing, no matter the source. Again, I don't have a lot of experience here, so I wouldn't know if they have really given lots of preference towards some segments of the population versus others or not. However, I do have to disagree somewhat with the notion that everyone's ideas should be given the same opportunity to see the light of day as anyone's. For one thing, some ideas are just, for lack of a better word, bad; or they are just not feasible for one or more very real and very understandable reasons. I also would tend to think it is in their best interests as a business to give a bit more consideration to ideas proposed by people who have demonstrated a propensity for furthering the success of the game and the company itself; a form of "merit consideration", if you will. However, I do not think that ever should be at the exclusion of anyone else's ideas.



No, actually, that is the perversion of capitalism. No true capitalist believes that pissing in one's own well is what capitalism is all about. Granted, we have an awful lot of perverted capitalism running rampant in RL due to unregulated and unchecked mass corporatism, but that is not and should not be an indictment of the concept of capitalism itself, even as implemented in SL.

I agree with the need for things to do. However, there are plenty of things to do in SL; things that are not run by the "perverted" capitalists. There are many places you can go to enjoy yourself without having to pay anything. There are quite a few places where people can go and get a bit of free money. We just recently had an impromptu party in Limbo where we had a raffle and a commie tipjar going where most everyone walked away with a few hundred Linden lining their pockets (and some with raffle prizes), kindly donated by the sponsors of the event. We probably will have more events on a regular basis soon as well. I know we are also not unique in having such events; it is just simply a matter of getting out there, exploring, and finding them. Anyone unwilling to put forth even the most basic effort to go looking around the world, someone who is impatient and just "wants it all NOW!" will probably get bored with the kind of game SL is. In fact, I daresay that no MMO is good enough for that kind of person. Playing with other people is not an exercise in instant gratification, no more so in SL than in RL, where patience is the most important virtue.



I really don't know for sure, but is LL really in that desperate of a situation? You make it sound like what the last game I was in (Horizons) was going through.



For my part, I am a capitalist, and I play the game, enjoy being with other people of like mind, help others here in the forums and in-game, make stuff that makes other people happy in return for money (or for free; I'm not the most strict capitalist in the world ). I admit I am no judge of my own impact on the game, but I don't consider my efforts as "bleeding the game" by any stretch of the imagination. That said, I don't consider my presence here any greater or more desirable than someone who logs in just to check his bank account. If that is how one defines one's own fun, who am I to argue? As long as such people (well, ANYone, really, not just "them", whoever "they" are) don't interfere with my or anyone else's ability to do what we want, why should I care?

And that's why you have a job outside SL. From what I've seen those with the skills to work full-time in SL can translate those skills out.

Or perhaps it would go a bit more like this.....

"So you've run a successful business for three years now?"

"Yes I made my living utilizing an online platform. I provided game content to players. I used real world marketing and advertising methods in this online environment. I staffed my company with employees, managed those employees, and saved myself real cash by hiring people who were players and paying them in game currency, which they preferred, instead of real currency ... thereby creating more real profit for myself. And I ran this business with my own home computer with absolutely no overhead."

"So you have business experience, management experience, advertising experience... and even computer experience."

"I also have sales experience. The basic breakdown of what I do is sell people virtual materials in a virtual environment in exchange for very real currency."

"When can you start?"

It's all in the attitude.




I think thats an extreme simplification of people's reasons for being here. Take myself for example. At 3:00 in the afternoon when I am logging in and out and in and out between paintshop and SL, creating things and answering customer's questions, etc.... I am there to work, to make L$, I'm not out dancing or skydiving because that is my work time.

But if you ran into me at 9:00 at night, you shouldn't be at all surprised to see me dancing or skydiving or hanging all over the arm of my lover. Many people see SL much the same way we see RL... There is so much opportunity to do basically anything we want and there is a time and a place for all of it.