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Total L$ Supply (L$) 692,578,714

mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
05-31-2006 22:46
From: Svar Beckersted
Your data is based on bullshit. Here is the peak residents recorded on each day for the past three weeks:

5/11-6605
5/12-6615
5/13-6609
5/14-6562
5/15-6644
5/16-6889-Tue
5/17-6546

5/18-6663
5/19-6758
5/20-6735
5/21-6861
5/22-6906
5/23-6986-Tue
5/24-6528

5/25-6609
5/26-6530
5/27-6409
5/28-6746
5/29-6796
5/30-6987-Tue
5/31-6791

Now go back and tell me what the Percapita L$ in circulation based on the number of people actually the game is. Look at the data, during the time that the total population grew by almost 20,000 residents the peak per day almost didn't move at all. Also look at the peak on every Tuesday and tell me why Tuesday should be the peak day instead of Saturday.


Just a note that these are peak logins at one certain point and not how many have logged in to sl during a given day.

I'm also wondering if the peak login has fallen off a bit due to money chairs going away. How many of the logins are actually people in game playing now?
Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
05-31-2006 22:55
From: mcgeeb Gupte
Just a note that these are peak logins at one certain point and not how many have logged in to sl during a given day.

I'm also wondering if the peak login has fallen off a bit due to money chairs going away. How many of the logins are actually people in game playing now?


The numbers throughout the day show the same trend, there aren't nearly the number of active new players as total accounts and the peak on Tuesday indicates a large number of alts transfering L$ to the primary account holders. Once this transfer has worked its way through the economy the L$ begins to increase in value from Thursday through Sunday when the business people dump their weekend profits on the LindeX.
Mad Wombat
Six Stringz Owner
Join date: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
06-01-2006 03:21
From: Svar Beckersted
Your data is based on bullshit. Here is the peak residents recorded on each day for the past three weeks:

5/11-6605
5/12-6615
5/13-6609
5/14-6562
5/15-6644
5/16-6889-Tue
5/17-6546

5/18-6663
5/19-6758
5/20-6735
5/21-6861
5/22-6906
5/23-6986-Tue
5/24-6528

5/25-6609
5/26-6530
5/27-6409
5/28-6746
5/29-6796
5/30-6987-Tue
5/31-6791

Now go back and tell me what the Percapita L$ in circulation based on the number of people actually the game is. Look at the data, during the time that the total population grew by almost 20,000 residents the peak per day almost didn't move at all. Also look at the peak on every Tuesday and tell me why Tuesday should be the peak day instead of Saturday.



These numbers don't actually tell how many people were online on that day. I would welcome a "unique logins per day" statistic".
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Maxx Monde
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,848
06-01-2006 04:46
Hey everybody! Its ANOTHER L$ thread!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

START THE PARTY NOW, I CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF THESE.

L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ LOL L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$ L$
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
06-01-2006 06:05
From: Svar Beckersted
Also look at the peak on every Tuesday and tell me why Tuesday should be the peak day instead of Saturday.

It's the day everyone goes shopping.
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-01-2006 06:07
From: 2ndLife Commerce
now that is rough.. r u telling me i need to go work at walmart or mcdonalds? ohh hell no.. i'm gonna make me some l$ and sell it on this lindenX. then wire the cash to my paypal account.


Its harder to make money in SL than it is to make it in the real world. When you fail I'll be laughing over your account because you seem to only want the 'easy' route.

Nothings wrong with working at thos eplaces - I make 9.50 an hour working at Walmart. And I've only been there a year.

Also of note: I highly doubt you are in college due to your spelling. Quit being lazy and spell properly and get past chatspeak. It makes you look ignorant and overly sedentary. I know 5 year olds that write better than you type.

Hell, I even look past the grammar such as 'i' because it could be a mistake - and gproper grammar is a dying art.

But seriously, lay off the chatspeak and at least APPEAR to have graduated fifth grade.
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2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 06:57
From: Jonas Pierterson
Its harder to make money in SL than it is to make it in the real world. When you fail I'll be laughing over your account because you seem to only want the 'easy' route.

Nothings wrong with working at thos eplaces - I make 9.50 an hour working at Walmart. And I've only been there a year.

Also of note: I highly doubt you are in college due to your spelling. Quit being lazy and spell properly and get past chatspeak. It makes you look ignorant and overly sedentary. I know 5 year olds that write better than you type.

Hell, I even look past the grammar such as 'i' because it could be a mistake - and gproper grammar is a dying art.

But seriously, lay off the chatspeak and at least APPEAR to have graduated fifth grade.




i enjoy the chat speak, plus i don't have to use the shift key. lets also point out the fact that i'm in college at arizona state and you are working at walmart for $9.50/hr. seems like my life track has more potential than yours.

in any case, i wanted to talk with my economics professor here at asu (Dr. Michael Melvin) about the second life economy and the problems it is having with a falling currency. after we chatted about how the economy works in sl, he told me point-blank that second life's problem is the on going printing of new linden dollars every week which is causing hyper-inflation. he pointed out that growing the money supply should be based on a gdp metric which shows that a "growing economy" should be the catalyst for increasing the money supply, not population growth. he gave me an example of what would happen if america had 300/million immigrants who showed up overnight, boasting the population by 100%. he said growing the money supply would be the worst thing you could do. because the newly arrived population has not contributed to the economy in any way. in fact, they first go through a cycle of being a burden on the economy before they become productive. but in any case, printing more money because new people showed up is foolish.

so just like second life, printing new linden dollars and handing them over to the public with the only justification begin that new people are joining is a receipe for failure. and this fact is being pointed out on the lindenx exchange where the linden dollar continues to decline because of the hyper-inflation of new money being printed. you might not like me, but when a ph.d in economics who's specialty is the microstructure of the foreign exchange markets, i'd have to say he knows what he is talking about. more so than you jonas. if you don't like the truth, talk to him yourself http://www.public.asu.edu/~mmelvin/
Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
06-01-2006 07:01
From: 2ndLife Commerce
he pointed out that growing the money supply should be based on a gdp metric which shows that a "growing economy" should be the catalyst for increasing the money supply, not population growth.

According to Phillip, the GDP is increasing much faster than the total money supply.
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2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 07:06
From: Keiki Lemieux
According to Phillip, the GDP is increasing much faster than the total money supply.



when you print money like water, the hyper-inflation might make you think the numerical increase is a gdp increase. if phillip was right, shouldn't the l$ be going up in value? from the posts that i've seen, the l$ has been going down for the last 2 years. and increasing its fall rate in the last 6 months. seems like phillip is looking at fuzzy math.
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-01-2006 07:12
From: 2ndLife Commerce
i enjoy the chat speak, plus i don't have to use the shift key. lets also point out the fact that i'm in college at arizona state and you are working at walmart for $9.50/hr. seems like my life track has more potential than yours.

in any case, i wanted to talk with my economics professor here at asu (Dr. Michael Melvin) about the second life economy and the problems it is having with a falling currency. after we chatted about how the economy works in sl, he told me point-blank that second life's problem is the on going printing of new linden dollars every week which is causing hyper-inflation. he pointed out that growing the money supply should be based on a gdp metric which shows that a "growing economy" should be the catalyst for increasing the money supply, not population growth. he gave me an example of what would happen if america had 300/million immigrants who showed up overnight, boasting the population by 100%. he said growing the money supply would be the worst thing you could do. because the newly arrived population has not contributed to the economy in any way. in fact, they first go through a cycle of being a burden on the economy before they become productive. but in any case, printing more money because new people showed up is foolish.

so just like second life, printing new linden dollars and handing them over to the public with the only justification begin that new people are joining is a receipt for failure. and this fact is being pointed out on the lindenx exchange where the linden dollar continues to decline because of the hyper-inflation of new money being printed. you might not like me, but when a ph.d in economics who's specialty is the microstructure of the foreign exchange markets, i'd have to say he knows what he is talking about. more so than you jonas. if you don't like the truth, talk to him yourself http://www.public.asu.edu/~mmelvin/


You still look like an idiot. And a virtual economy is far different from a real world one. WoW's gold 'value' hasn't changed much though its continually 'minted' and in an ever growing supply. IMVU's credits have devalued though they don't print like the stipend does.

Obvious examples show he's wrong- and I'd like to see what expereine he has in VIRTUAL ECONOMY. I'll trust Edward Castranova first thanks. He actually has expereince with virual economies.
_____________________
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I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-01-2006 07:16
From: 2ndLife Commerce
when you print money like water, the hyper-inflation might make you think the numerical increase is a gdp increase. if phillip was right, shouldn't the l$ be going up in value? from the posts that i've seen, the l$ has been going down for the last 2 years. and increasing its fall rate in the last 6 months. seems like phillip is looking at fuzzy math.



It's the scripture according to Phillip. You just have to have faith in it.
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-01-2006 07:20
From: Jonas Pierterson
You still look like an idiot. And a virtual economy is far different from a real world one. WoW's gold 'value' hasn't changed much though its continually 'minted' and in an ever growing supply.


You can say the same thing about the US$, or the Euro. What's your point? And how is SL's "virtual" economy different from any other economy? (I am not looking for "it's a fake" economy, since what I am asking is HOW is it a fake economy as opposed to a real economy)
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-01-2006 07:26
From: Rasah Tigereye
You can say the same thing about the US$, or the Euro. What's your point? And how is SL's "virtual" economy different from any other economy? (I am not looking for "it's a fake" economy, since what I am asking is HOW is it a fake economy as opposed to a real economy)


In the same way WoW's economy is a fake one, none of the money is real. Its not even like money in real world banks.

Both WoW and SL continually print new money. WoW's value stays pretty stable. SL's has dropped (or risen depending on your viewpoint). Whats the reason for that?

You tell me why WoW's gold hasn't changed value much - then we can emulate that on SL to stabalize.

Not printing stipends also does nothing to balance the value - as seen by the IMVU exchange of credits..no stipends but a continual drop in associated value.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 07:30
From: Jonas Pierterson
You still look like an idiot. And a virtual economy is far different from a real world one. WoW's gold 'value' hasn't changed much though its continually 'minted' and in an ever growing supply. IMVU's credits have devalued though they don't print like the stipend does.

Obvious examples show he's wrong- and I'd like to see what expereine he has in VIRTUAL ECONOMY. I'll trust Edward Castranova first thanks. He actually has expereince with virual economies.




i've researched edward castronova's writings (have you)? and edward makes it clear that continued printing, either deliberate or by accident, of a virtual economy's currency will be the primary source of inflation (or hyper-inflation). am i still an idiot, given that your idol is telling you the same thing i just told you?



Is Inflation Fun?
Source: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/08/is_inflation_fu.html

Dollar_sign_with_shadowMOGs have a thing called MUDflation (Raph Koster referred to it once as 'database inflation') that seems to have been part of their fabric from the beginning. Now, recently, a website (of dubious origin and with shady claims - not recommended) has created some charts that basically reveal what everyone here knows: the value of almost all game currencies against the dollar falls over time (although through back channels Nick Yee says that the price of WoW gold has stabilized recently; I am in EQ2 these days). Nothing new in this. Yet now that the numbers are posted this way, we get other sites (thanks Jessica) making alarmist (though tongue-in-cheek) analyses, as though something's wrong.

Is something wrong? We've talked about this before. Does this evidence of dramatic inflation indicate that these economies are horribly mismanaged? Or perhaps the universal presence of inflation in MOGs suggests something far more significant from a policy perspective (and also something of a teaser from my book), namely, that inflation may simply be more fun than price stability.

Of course, that's in the context of the game. I am not arguing (yet) that inflation rates of 50 percent would be more fun than price stability in the real world economy. It's a food-for-thought point: If we designed the real world economy to be fun, what would it look like? More concrete: If we managed the synthetic economies 'properly' and got rid of the inflation - which is eminently doable - would the games be less fun or more fun?

Posted by Edward Castronova on August 23, 2005
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 07:31
From: Rasah Tigereye
It's the scripture according to Phillip. You just have to have faith in it.



after 2 years of decline, who still has faith the l$ will rise?
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-01-2006 07:35
From: Jonas Pierterson
In the same way WoW's economy is a fake one, none of the money is real. Its not even like money in real world banks.


You didn't answer the question. HOW is it not real? What makes SL's money any less real than the money fron any other third world country? And what about that makes SL's economy different fron a "real world" economy? (and yes, SL has banks)

From: Jonas Pierterson

Both WoW and SL continually print new money. WoW's value stays pretty stable. SL's has dropped (or risen depending on your viewpoint). Whats the reason for that?


Both US government and EU print new money. The Euro has stayed pretty stable. US$ has been declining in value quite a bit compared to other currencies. The fact that money is printed doesn't automatically make that money decline. Main things that affect the value of money are how abundant it is (quantity of new money printed) and how trustworthy it is (amount of problems or debts associated with it). There aren't really any debts that LL owes to anyone else in $L, so the main problem here is too much printed in SL to support it, while just enough being printed in WoW to keep it stable.

From: Jonas Pierterson

Not printing stipends also does nothing to balance the value - as seen by the IMVU exchange of credits..no stipends but a continual drop in associated value.


IMVU??? And not printing of stippends would make the economy get screwed up in the other direction. It's the balanced amount of stippends (or ANY new printed money) that's reflecting the actual economic growth that I'm for.
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-01-2006 07:36
From: 2ndLife Commerce
i've researched edward castronova's writings (have you)? and edward makes it clear that continued printing, either deliberate or by accident, of a virtual economy's currency will be the primary source of inflation (or hyper-inflation). am i still an idiot, given that your idol is telling you the same thing i just told you?



Is Inflation Fun?
Source: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/08/is_inflation_fu.html

Dollar_sign_with_shadowMOGs have a thing called MUDflation (Raph Koster referred to it once as 'database inflation') that seems to have been part of their fabric from the beginning. Now, recently, a website (of dubious origin and with shady claims - not recommended) has created some charts that basically reveal what everyone here knows: the value of almost all game currencies against the dollar falls over time (although through back channels Nick Yee says that the price of WoW gold has stabilized recently; I am in EQ2 these days). Nothing new in this. Yet now that the numbers are posted this way, we get other sites (thanks Jessica) making alarmist (though tongue-in-cheek) analyses, as though something's wrong.

Is something wrong? We've talked about this before. Does this evidence of dramatic inflation indicate that these economies are horribly mismanaged? Or perhaps the universal presence of inflation in MOGs suggests something far more significant from a policy perspective (and also something of a teaser from my book), namely, that inflation may simply be more fun than price stability.

Of course, that's in the context of the game. I am not arguing (yet) that inflation rates of 50 percent would be more fun than price stability in the real world economy. It's a food-for-thought point: If we designed the real world economy to be fun, what would it look like? More concrete: If we managed the synthetic economies 'properly' and got rid of the inflation - which is eminently doable - would the games be less fun or more fun?

Posted by Edward Castronova on August 23, 2005


Idol? Please. You also fail to realize while I aim to save the stipends from removal, I have ZERO objection to them being bought from the lindex as long as I get the minimum of 500 lindens a week. Thats what I paid for. You can also note that terranova blogs is unreliable. To quote a british friend of mine, complete bollocks. Get a REAL source.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-01-2006 07:41
From: Jonas Pierterson
Idol? Please. You also fail to realize while I aim to save the stipends from removal, I have ZERO objection to them being bought from the lindex as long as I get the minimum of 500 lindens a week. Thats what I paid for. You can also note that terranova blogs is unreliable. To quote a british friend of mine, complete bollocks. Get a REAL source.



Should stippends get removed, I voulenteer to sell you $500L every week for $10US a month.
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 07:44
From: Jonas Pierterson
Idol? Please. You also fail to realize while I aim to save the stipends from removal, I have ZERO objection to them being bought from the lindex as long as I get the minimum of 500 lindens a week. Thats what I paid for. You can also note that terranova blogs is unreliable. To quote a british friend of mine, complete bollocks. Get a REAL source.




jonas... edward castronova posted that blog and he is is one of the terra nova founders.


The Terra Nova weblog was launched in September 2003 by:

Edward Castronova
Associate Professor of Telecommunications, Indiana University

Julian Dibbell
Author of My Tiny Life, and contributing editor for WIRED magazine

Dan Hunter
Assistant Professor of Legal Studies, Wharton

Greg Lastowka
Assistant Professor of Law, Rutgers University School of Law (Camden)


http://terranova.blogs.com/about.html
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-01-2006 07:52
From: 2ndLife Commerce
jonas... edward castronova posted that blog and he is is one of the terra nova founders.


The Terra Nova weblog was launched in September 2003 by:

Edward Castronova
Associate Professor of Telecommunications, Indiana University

Julian Dibbell
Author of My Tiny Life, and contributing editor for WIRED magazine

Dan Hunter
Assistant Professor of Legal Studies, Wharton

Greg Lastowka
Assistant Professor of Law, Rutgers University School of Law (Camden)


http://terranova.blogs.com/about.html


Doesn't make it reliable. Get Edward involved with secondlife, study it for at least 3 months, then combined with his experience we can see what comes up.

Removing the stipends will only end up causing an economy crash - thats soemthing you have to face.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-01-2006 07:56
From: Jonas Pierterson

Removing the stipends will only end up causing an economy crash - thats soemthing you have to face.


As opposed to... what? The "healthy" non-crashing economy we have right now?

*pokes* Why can't this economy be compared to a "real" one?
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
06-01-2006 08:06
rasah said it best. do we stick with stipends and watch the economy crash or take a risk of getting rid of stipends and seeing "if" the economy crashes?

virtual or real ecomomies are the same. you might not be able to buy a quarter pounder with cheese in sl, but you can sell your linden dollars, get us dollars, and buy your cheese burger. that fact makes the sl economy a real economy because you can profit and exchange your profit of linden dollars for us dollars.

remember jonas, currency is nothing more than a "tool" to facilitate trade, instead of using the barter system. and by using a currency tool, you have effectively created an economy. it can be virtual or real life person to person. but in the end, real people are using tools to further themselves or entertain themselves.

i'll give you a real world example so you can understand..


(frequent flyer miles). these miles can be exchanged for airline tickets which have an associated us dollar value. if you have (X) frequenty flyer miles, you can purchase (Y) amount of tickets. by default, you have an exchange rate between ff miles and us dollars, making the ff miles a currency. a currency which can buy you a material product/service. much like the linden dollar.
Psyra Extraordinaire
Corra Nacunda Chieftain
Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
06-01-2006 08:13
GRAB ALL YOUR COINS AND RUN!!!!11111oneoneeleven

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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
06-01-2006 08:32
From: 2ndLife Commerce
when you print money like water, the hyper-inflation might make you think the numerical increase is a gdp increase. if phillip was right, shouldn't the l$ be going up in value? from the posts that i've seen, the l$ has been going down for the last 2 years. and increasing its fall rate in the last 6 months. seems like phillip is looking at fuzzy math.

See, now it sounds like you are just pulling opinions out of your ass. You really should investigate things a little deeper. The GDP in SL in real dollars is increasing quite fast. It's a booming economy. Is the mix of sources and sinks right to maintain a stable valuation? Maybe not yet, but I think it's worth waiting a couple of months to see what affect the changes to dwell and basic account stipends will have.

*sigh* For a moment, I thought you might actually want to discuss something. But I think my initial assessment was right. Back on ignore you go.
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Maxx Monde
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,848
06-01-2006 08:36
What is with the inflationary aspect of economic trolls? Did a university have a water leak somewhere? A bunch get laid off from an analyst division of a brokerage house?

I'd really like to know what is driving the postcount on the forums to these "L$-Threads-A-Plenty", since any suggestions (if even read) won't be acted upon, aren't part of "Feature Requests", etc..

Really, beyond economic trolling, what is the point?
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