A simple money sink
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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08-18-2005 10:58
The idea is simple: to arrest large dips in L$ value, Linden Labs should buy L$ back in the open market. Why not, central banks all over the world do it... spend USD to keep the exchange rate stable. When the L$ demand overheats, the lindens can also put more money into the system by selling L$ in the open market.
I'm not saying that they should intervene so much that L$ becomes essentially pegged to the USD, but they could possibly intervene enough that the market does not swing too wildly. For example, intervene when the value of the L$ moves more than 2% in a day. What do you think?
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Kavai Onizuka
Spudzuka Properties
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 452
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08-18-2005 11:06
Question here is:
WHY?
What is in it for LL? They don't have unlimited cash flow you know.
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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08-18-2005 11:35
A stable, healthy economy makes SL a more desirable place to stay. This will encourage more land investment (more tier fees), and more new players.
Plus, this simple strategy will mean more developer time for features like Havok 2, rather than try and dick around with harebrained money sink schemes.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-18-2005 13:07
wouldnt it be easier for them just to suspend all stipends for a month or two?
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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08-18-2005 14:14
The buying back option might actually not be such bad an idea. It wouldn't be cheap though: We talking about 250k US$ worth of Linden$ at IGE and GOM alone!
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Nala Galatea
Pink Dragon Kung-Fu
Join date: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 335
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08-18-2005 14:29
From: Colette Meiji wouldnt it be easier for them just to suspend all stipends for a month or two? Yes, but then you have to think that people pay for a premium account, oneof the benefits is a garaunteed $500 stipend each week. That would seriously irritate some people. Now, if they got rid of rating/dwell bonuses for a month, that would be more feasible without violating any contracts. They could also raise the price of uploads. Tier upload costs based on what's being uploaded. (image, sound file, animation) Charge a tax for having music/video streaming on your land. etc, etc, etc....(just ideas for sinks) However, as things stand right now, there is no true money sink except for ratings and upload fees (ie. the money otherwise changes hands, and is not removed from the game) and they aren't expensive enough nor popular enough to affect much. There needs to be viable ways to remove money from the game that people would be willing to pay or have shown they will pay. Of course, people here are more concerned with the RL value of their money than other online communities, so I think any increase in a sink will be met with some stiff opposition (though that's never stopped any online company from implementing their policy, and as always, either ante up or fold)
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MeLight Korvin
Im on da Use
Join date: 4 Jun 2005
Posts: 99
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08-18-2005 16:23
simple taxes system would work much better
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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08-18-2005 16:43
From: Nala Galatea However, as things stand right now, there is no true money sink except for ratings and upload fees (ie. the money otherwise changes hands, and is not removed from the game) and they aren't expensive enough nor popular enough to affect much. There needs to be viable ways to remove money from the game that people would be willing to pay or have shown they will pay.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There are other money sinks. There is first land, land auctions, and the Linden run sim renting. Don't forget, money that is in an account that is no longer used, either because people stopped playing, or they were banned, caused money to leave the system. There are ways to get rid of money. I find it funny, when the L$ was rising I never hear anyone, at least like this, demaning more money in the economy, and less money sinks.
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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08-18-2005 17:17
From: Colette Meiji wouldnt it be easier for them just to suspend all stipends for a month or two? Maybe, but imagine all the headaches that would come with that... all the people coming out saying "OMG WTF WHERE'S MY STIPEND?!?!?!!" Buying money back from the market will not result in any of these. If they were discrete enough, we may never even notice the Lindens working behind the scenes to stabilize the L$. And yes, dnate, if there was a huge runup in the value of the L$, they can intervene in the market as well by selling L$ on the market (they might even make a small profit) and injecting more L$ into the system.
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Alaska Metropolitan
Fashion Addict
Join date: 5 Jun 2005
Posts: 259
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08-18-2005 18:17
I approve of the idea of taxes/fines. Charge to stream on land. Charge for particles on land. Fine people for attaching too many prims to their bodies. (Maybe even bling, but that's just 'cos I think it's hideous.  ) Lower the prim allotment for land slightly and then charge to add prims to the land. All these things could be a money sink AND help with lag. Heck, charge exponentially for upload texture size. $20 or $25 if it's over 512 X 512. Etc. There's ways to do it without giving less for a stipend. But I agree the rating/dwell increase is unnecessary... I find people stretch out events for an unnecessarily long time and I suspect it's to increase it. If there's money sinks to assist the economy that ALSO help prevent lag... well that's excellent. Just my two cents. I'm hardly an economist. 
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Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
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08-18-2005 18:22
From: Flyingroc Chung The idea is simple: to arrest large dips in L$ value, Linden Labs should buy L$ back in the open market. Why not, central banks all over the world do it... spend USD to keep the exchange rate stable. When the L$ demand overheats, the lindens can also put more money into the system by selling L$ in the open market.
I'm not saying that they should intervene so much that L$ becomes essentially pegged to the USD, but they could possibly intervene enough that the market does not swing too wildly. For example, intervene when the value of the L$ moves more than 2% in a day. What do you think? The problem with this is if the economy becomes dependent on it. Doing it in emergency situations is one thing.. keeping it up as a policy could be a tad dangerous.
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
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08-18-2005 20:34
So you're suggesting that Linden Lab basically spend money to buy its own virtual currency that it can't sell itself? Well duh, if Linden Lab pisses away money into the economy, it'll have more value. But for that matter, why don't you put your money into it? 
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Judah Jimador
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 230
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08-18-2005 22:12
What about point-to-point TP'ing at $5L a shot?
-- jj
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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08-18-2005 22:24
How about a variable amount on point to point teleports. Basically the price changes to whatever generates the most L$ for the sink.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-19-2005 02:55
That would be more reason not to go anywhere. coco
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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08-19-2005 07:29
There are more ideas here /130/81/57237/1.html
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Mike Zidane
Registered User
Join date: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 255
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08-19-2005 07:30
I gotta say, I think charging a buck or two for teleporting would be a fine sink. If you don't want to pay it, you can always fly. People will definitely pay to travel. And if they don't pay, then they'll end up seeing more of the world and that increases exposure for everyone.
I understand why it's unpopular, but any time you take money away from people, it's going to be unpopular. If the tax is low enough, people will complain, and then they'll pay it.
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Whata Fool
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 90
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08-19-2005 09:03
I really don't understand the need for a "money sink", and barely understand the concept of why one is needed. There is no equivalent in a RL economy.
This may be a bit of an oversimplification, but what causes inflation is when the money supply grows faster than goods and services produced. In other words if there is more money than there is stuff to buy. Deflation is caused by just the opposite; more goods and services than there is money.
I can see the concept of a "money sink" as a means of regulating the money supply, but it is not a necessary part of an economy as many have suggested. Other more conventional suppy and demand controls should work as they do in a RL economy.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-19-2005 09:13
From: Whata Fool I really don't understand the need for a "money sink", and barely understand the concept of why one is needed. There is no equivalent in a RL economy.
This may be a bit of an oversimplification, but what causes inflation is when the money supply grows faster than goods and services produced. In other words if there is more money than there is stuff to buy. Deflation is caused by just the opposite; more goods and services than there is money.
I can see the concept of a "money sink" as a means of regulating the money supply, but it is not a necessary part of an economy as many have suggested. Other more conventional suppy and demand controls should work as they do in a RL economy. There is some huge differences between Second Life and Real Life. Aquisition of resources. Labor required for manufacture. Wear. In a virtual economy , lack of the factors have to be balanced by either money or time sinks. A time sink accomplishes a decrease in inflation by reducing virtual income. A money sink directly impacts the money supply. Additionally - In real life the government DOES NOT print money and just hand it out - at least not in stable economies.
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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08-19-2005 09:28
What ever is done about the value of the Linden dollar, it should not involve (1) making things more complicated or (2) making it less fun. You don't want to discourage building, hosting, traveling, etc.
At any rate, L$ that are just sitting in someone's account are effectively sunk, anyhow.
The problem is that more people need to sell L$ than need to buy them. Therefore what we need is something that makes people buy or hoard L$.
Maybe there could be some sort of reward for having a bunch of L$ in your account. Either that or some incredibly expensive but irresistable item that you just gotta buy--
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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08-19-2005 09:32
From: Colette Meiji There is some huge difference between Second Life and Real Life.
Aquisition of resources. Labor required for manufacture. Wear.
In a virtual economy , lack of the factors have to be blanced by either money or time sinks.
A time sink accomplishes a decrease in inflation by reducing virtual income.
A money sink directly impacts the money supply.
Additionally - In real life the government DOES NOT print money and just hand it out - at least not in stable economies. Um... wrong? Money still does not leave the economy. Money comes from the company to pay the workers, the workers buy the products that the company makes. Where is the money sink in that cycle? Companies pay other companies to build a machine for them, that company pays its workers, the workers buy the goods that the first company makes. Still no sink. The government taxes the people in the country, that money goes a pays for government run programs. Yet again, no money sink. Must I go on? The government prints money, much more then is lost or ruined, so the amount of USD floating in the world increases every day. There are no money sinks in RL, why do we need them in SL?
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-19-2005 09:44
From: Dnate Mars Um... wrong? Money still does not leave the economy. Money comes from the company to pay the workers, the workers buy the products that the company makes. Where is the money sink in that cycle? Companies pay other companies to build a machine for them, that company pays its workers, the workers buy the goods that the first company makes. Still no sink. The government taxes the people in the country, that money goes a pays for government run programs. Yet again, no money sink. Must I go on? The government prints money, much more then is lost or ruined, so the amount of USD floating in the world increases every day. There are no money sinks in RL, why do we need them in SL? I didnt say there was a money sink in RL I said - ***In a virtual economy , lack of the factors have to be balanced by either money or time sinks.*** Meaning - becuase the supply (not money supply, manufactured goods supply ) is potentially infinite - you need some way to balance that. -on the subject of printing money- The US government Does not simply print money and release it into the economy as a matter of policy. The US government Has Income, and Borrows money to make up for shortfalls where that Income (Taxes) falls short of Spending. Linden Labs literally does simply print money and hand it out as a matter of policy.
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Zonax Delorean
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 767
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08-19-2005 10:04
A bit of sidenote: While governments don't just create money, banks, in a way, do. Money creation in RL (Wikipedia)From: someone ... The most common mechanism used to create money is typically called the deposit creation multiplier. It measures the amount by which the commercial banking system increases the money supply. To control the amount of money created by the system, central banks place strict reserve ratios on the commercial banks. For example, central banks generally restrict the proportion of primary deposits that commercial banks can lend out. This is called the cash reserve ratio.
For example, lets assume that a primary deposit of $1000 is made into bank A. If the cash reserve ratio is 12%, then $120 must be kept on hand by the bank and $880 is available to be lent to someone else (called the excess reserve). Now if bank A uses its $880 in excess reserve by lending it out, and that is deposited in bank B, it represents a primary deposit to the second bank. Bank B must keep 12% of $880 on hand but can lend out $774.40. If that $774.40 is eventually deposited in bank C, the third bank must keep $92.93 on hand but can lend out $681.47. The process continues until there is no excess reserve left (For simplicity we will ignore safety reserves.). By adding all the derivative deposits we can calculate the amount of money created. Alternatively we can use the deposit multiplier equation:
TD = ID / crr
Where:
* TD = change in Total Deposits * ID = Initial change in Deposit * crr = cash reserve ratio
The initial change in deposit of $1000 will increase total deposits by $7333.33 given a reserve ratio of 12% (1000/.12=8333.33). ...
It's an interesting read, worth checking out the whole page.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-19-2005 10:09
From: Zonax Delorean A bit of sidenote: While governments don't just create money, banks, in a way, do. Money creation in RL (Wikipedia)It's an interesting read, worth checking out the whole page. This is of course true. It also occurs in Virtual Economies though. I buy a skin from person A, Person A buys Shoes from Person B, Person B buys Hair from Person C, Person C rents a house from Person D ... and so on... The money gets used more than once. Banks are even larger players in this phenomena becuase as you referenced they hold money only on margins based on how much of assets they are required to maintain on hand.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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08-19-2005 10:12
From: Colette Meiji I didnt say there was a money sink in RL
I said -
***In a virtual economy , lack of the factors have to be balanced by either money or time sinks.***
Meaning - becuase the supply (not money supply, manufactured goods supply ) is potentially infinite - you need some way to balance that.
-on the subject of printing money-
The US government Does not simply print money and release it into the economy as a matter of policy.
The US government Has Income, and Borrows money to make up for shortfalls where that Income (Taxes) falls short of Spending.
Linden Labs literally does simply print money and hand it out as a matter of policy. LL also takes money from the economy and makes it disappear. So on the balance, they are like a government that is spending more then they take in. The statement was not just directed at you either, it was more of general point. There are time sinks, but cause it does take time to make something that other can buy and/or get. There is a balance that will come over time, just ride the wave and have some fun.
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