Second Life Forums Archive - Philip Linden's Answer

Lewis Nerd

Nerd by name and nature!

Join date: 9 Oct 2005

Posts: 3,431

03-31-2006 01:40

What I would like to know is whether the people who make these decisions actually ever log in and experience the result of the problems they cause?

Whilst it's all well and good for Phillip Linden to say "oh yes this must happen", has he ever tried running a store in-world? Has he ever tried doing anything without printing himself money to do it? Has he ever tried to make money by selling items that he himself has made without any other help? Has he ever sat and watched whilst lower quality competition gets successful because they bribe people to camp on their land?

The "hands off" experience means that frankly he has no clue how it all works. I have no problem with him using an alt to do this, in fact it would almost be essential to do so - but you cannot fix problems that you haven't actually got practical experience of dealing with.

Lewis

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Paulismyname Bunin

Registered User

Join date: 29 Nov 2005

Posts: 243

03-31-2006 02:45

From: ReserveBank Division

All a safety zone does is extend the hurt...

Thats not entirely true RBD my little cherub

Could not resist this little gremlin...-

I suggest you do some research on the crazy years of 2001/2002 following the dot com crash and.......do a google on..... Plunge Protection Scheme -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Plunge+Protection+Scheme&btnG=Google+Search

Lina Pussycat

Texture WizKid

Join date: 19 Jun 2005

Posts: 731

welll...

03-31-2006 03:28

From: Alan Kiesler

I think what Lina and Jopsy are suggesting would be better implemented as something like the NYSE's 'circuit breakers.' The idea re-worded slightly for here:

A drop of N points from the open (absolute or %) would kick in an automatic 'forcing' of all subsequent sell orders that are lower, to that floor for a period of time (say 2 hours) before they release again. Subsequent 'break points' can be established for longer periods (4, 8 hr) or until the 'day' is over and the new open is set.

Before someone puts holes in the idea

this is merely a suggestion, and probably a bad one at that. I'm just bringing up one way that controls can be implemented. (Note the original Breakers suspend trading altogether - perhaps just disallow sell orders for that period? *shrug*)

Again, this is merely a suggestion, and one that will likely not work in SL anyway. I'm merely bringing it up so those not familiar with RL markets have an idea what really goes on in situations like this.

:link:

yes the sad fact is... its a poor idea it just allows some control freaking people need to stop panicking. Its stupid to see this week after week. It gets aggrigvating there are to many issues to jsut change one thing and hope it'll get better. Ultimately anything done is only going to work temporarily while the others go the other extreme and end up causing deflation. There is no real fix to this problem unless the users in SL try to change things for themselves. Greed is an udnerlying factor here and its sad to see just how week human's are!

George Flan

Registered User

Join date: 21 Sep 2005

Posts: 268

When?

03-31-2006 03:31

When is RBD going to realize that all his ranting and raving is not going to change a thing. Learn to live with it. I still think it is one or maybe two people dumping on SL just to make more money and try to bring in their own form of currency.

Lina Pussycat

Texture WizKid

Join date: 19 Jun 2005

Posts: 731

again...

03-31-2006 03:34

From: ReserveBank Division

All a safety zone does is extend the hurt...

its jsut a suggestion its a way to prevent panick more then anything. Just to stabalize things more. Sadly anything extends the hurt in the long run we jsut go back to how things are over a short time of a small boom effect or we go the other extreme with deflation . i myself will state there is NO fix to this matter other then the people selling the L to get their act together. Creating SInks or decreasing volume will only have a minimal effect for a short period then things will continue in the matter they are,

And really there needs to b a degree where LL say its enough. The flaw with my idea is it requires faith that people use the safety as a thing saying you know mabye we shouldnt be udnercutting each other etc. But that faith in people i dont have a strong will for as i have yet to see any reason to. No matter what is done the trend will continue im just say make a way to prevent it from ever hitting a critical level!

Jopsy Pendragon

Perpetual Outsider

Join date: 15 Jan 2004

Posts: 1,906

04-01-2006 01:32

From: Lina Pussycat

In which he/she stated that they worked with stuff like that in R/l b4 where it was illegal to go past 25% a given value (usually what the stock is worth) in either direction.

I can't say it was legal or illegal.. it was just that placing a sell order for +25% of the current stock price wasn't accepted by their system.

Considering the year was 2000... it was quite likely that you could see a spike in stock value of 30% or more within a month on some stocks.

Paulismyname Bunin

Registered User

Join date: 29 Nov 2005

Posts: 243

04-01-2006 02:55

From: Jopsy Pendragon

I can't say it was legal or illegal.. it was just that placing a sell order for +25% of the current stock price wasn't accepted by their system.

Considering the year was 2000... it was quite likely that you could see a spike in stock value of 30% or more within a month on some stocks.

I can add to that a bit I think.

I do not trade US Stock with a US Broker but through a UK Broker with direct access to US Markets, with of course the necessary US authorisation re tax. So I cannot speak for actual US stock trade limits except I think the NYSE still may be using what they call "open outcry" to trade, the NASDAQ and Arch are electronic settlement I believe.

However in the UK most shares down though the FT100/250 and some other smaller cap stock including more recently AIM shares is electronic. You need to look at a live "sets" book to understand how it works, BUT it is similar to the LindexX book although with many refinements including the ability to see posted prices of both buyers, sells (and if you are clever you can spot the Market Makers together with bots)

I digress.... but on "sets" if you try to trade a price more than 5% above the last "best" buy or sell price you trigger an automatic auction process. What happens then is by a combination of the Volume Weighted Average Price and the new offered buy or sell, a new price is set which you trade from.

The point I am making is that the system prevents (to a degree) efforts to "move" the market to you own short term advantage although again like anything else it can be circumvented (legally and not legally).

The only exception to this is what they call "witching day and "triple witching day", which is connected with options expiry and is on the 3rd Friday of each month and quarter when the rules may be suspended. In the UK that might be for half an hour sometime between 10am and 11am (in the morning GMT time)

The reason for this slightly off topic post though is to point out Linden could do their necessary research on such a system and implement it with the Linden Dollar Exchange. It would not prevent a long-term trend BUT it may help to stop individual people getting shafted on one off trades. Just a view of course.

Finally for anybody else reading this who well understands how this system works, I have ignored the open and close auction process and other various FSA/LSE rules together with uptick/downtick US rules regarding shorting. This post is just designed as an overview to demonstrate a controlled process to trade in a semi live, and live market.

Ah yes an afterthough....would some of the larger Linden Dollar holders welcome a means of hedging their LInden Dollar holdings by either buying or selling covered warrents on the Linden Dollar.....hmm that is in idea as it might help liquidity

Calix Metropolitan

Registered User

Join date: 10 May 2005

Posts: 212

04-01-2006 03:05

From: Sabrina Doolittle

Ok I just came to post about this same PL answer. The title of my thread was going to be "Ok, NOW I'm scared..." but this will do.

When the President and CEO of a company doesn't realise the following, the company is in deep ca-ca:

1. The economy is not driven by availability of currency. IT IS DRIVEN BY LAND PRICES.
2. Linden Labs controls the base rate for land prices by what they charge for First Land.

A 20% fluctuation is acceptable when it's +/-10%. A 20% DROP in the value of the currency isn't the same thing.

Given the 7% addition of new money supply every month, we *should* be seeing inflation. But we're not - we're seeing deflation. Something is very very wrong here, and it ain't stipends or dwell.

To paraphrase Bill Clinton:

IT'S THE FIRST LAND PRICES, STUPID.

Quick question, posed to anyone in this thread...Would you stop playing if 1usd = 360L?

Simple yes or no, because I think that might be more important trying to read into the words of the game's CEO out of context...I'm sorry, but I for one am not going to jump off a bridge b/c of some excerpt quote merely used to cause a nervous selling frenzy.

(and there is no need to get into the well you probally...b/c I do in fact trade on lindenX)

Today is April Fools day...hmm

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ReserveBank Division

Senior Member

Join date: 16 Jan 2006

Posts: 1,408

04-01-2006 03:19

From: George Flan

When is RBD going to realize that all his ranting and raving is not going to change a thing. Learn to live with it. I still think it is one or maybe two people dumping on SL just to make more money and try to bring in their own form of currency.

When is the back woodsman from West Virginia going
to realize that his ranting and raving isn't going to change
how free markets operate?

_____________________

Philip Linden's Answer
Lewis Nerd Nerd by name and nature! Join date: 9 Oct 2005 Posts: 3,431	03-31-2006 01:40 What I would like to know is whether the people who make these decisions actually ever log in and experience the result of the problems they cause? Whilst it's all well and good for Phillip Linden to say "oh yes this must happen", has he ever tried running a store in-world? Has he ever tried doing anything without printing himself money to do it? Has he ever tried to make money by selling items that he himself has made without any other help? Has he ever sat and watched whilst lower quality competition gets successful because they bribe people to camp on their land? The "hands off" experience means that frankly he has no clue how it all works. I have no problem with him using an alt to do this, in fact it would almost be essential to do so - but you cannot fix problems that you haven't actually got practical experience of dealing with. Lewis _____________________ Second Life Stratics - your new premier resource for all things Second Life. Free to join, sign up today! Pocket Protector Projects - Rosieri 90,234,84 - building and landscaping services
Paulismyname Bunin Registered User Join date: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 243	03-31-2006 02:45 From: ReserveBank Division All a safety zone does is extend the hurt... Thats not entirely true RBD my little cherub Could not resist this little gremlin...- I suggest you do some research on the crazy years of 2001/2002 following the dot com crash and.......do a google on..... Plunge Protection Scheme - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Plunge+Protection+Scheme&btnG=Google+Search
Lina Pussycat Texture WizKid Join date: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 731	welll... 03-31-2006 03:28 From: Alan Kiesler I think what Lina and Jopsy are suggesting would be better implemented as something like the NYSE's 'circuit breakers.' The idea re-worded slightly for here: A drop of N points from the open (absolute or %) would kick in an automatic 'forcing' of all subsequent sell orders that are lower, to that floor for a period of time (say 2 hours) before they release again. Subsequent 'break points' can be established for longer periods (4, 8 hr) or until the 'day' is over and the new open is set. Before someone puts holes in the idea this is merely a suggestion, and probably a bad one at that. I'm just bringing up one way that controls can be implemented. (Note the original Breakers suspend trading altogether - perhaps just disallow sell orders for that period? shrug) Again, this is merely a suggestion, and one that will likely not work in SL anyway. I'm merely bringing it up so those not familiar with RL markets have an idea what really goes on in situations like this. :link: yes the sad fact is... its a poor idea it just allows some control freaking people need to stop panicking. Its stupid to see this week after week. It gets aggrigvating there are to many issues to jsut change one thing and hope it'll get better. Ultimately anything done is only going to work temporarily while the others go the other extreme and end up causing deflation. There is no real fix to this problem unless the users in SL try to change things for themselves. Greed is an udnerlying factor here and its sad to see just how week human's are!
George Flan Registered User Join date: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 268	When? 03-31-2006 03:31 When is RBD going to realize that all his ranting and raving is not going to change a thing. Learn to live with it. I still think it is one or maybe two people dumping on SL just to make more money and try to bring in their own form of currency.
Lina Pussycat Texture WizKid Join date: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 731	again... 03-31-2006 03:34 From: ReserveBank Division All a safety zone does is extend the hurt... its jsut a suggestion its a way to prevent panick more then anything. Just to stabalize things more. Sadly anything extends the hurt in the long run we jsut go back to how things are over a short time of a small boom effect or we go the other extreme with deflation . i myself will state there is NO fix to this matter other then the people selling the L to get their act together. Creating SInks or decreasing volume will only have a minimal effect for a short period then things will continue in the matter they are, And really there needs to b a degree where LL say its enough. The flaw with my idea is it requires faith that people use the safety as a thing saying you know mabye we shouldnt be udnercutting each other etc. But that faith in people i dont have a strong will for as i have yet to see any reason to. No matter what is done the trend will continue im just say make a way to prevent it from ever hitting a critical level!
Jopsy Pendragon Perpetual Outsider Join date: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 1,906	04-01-2006 01:32 From: Lina Pussycat In which he/she stated that they worked with stuff like that in R/l b4 where it was illegal to go past 25% a given value (usually what the stock is worth) in either direction. I can't say it was legal or illegal.. it was just that placing a sell order for +25% of the current stock price wasn't accepted by their system. Considering the year was 2000... it was quite likely that you could see a spike in stock value of 30% or more within a month on some stocks.
Paulismyname Bunin Registered User Join date: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 243	04-01-2006 02:55 From: Jopsy Pendragon I can't say it was legal or illegal.. it was just that placing a sell order for +25% of the current stock price wasn't accepted by their system. Considering the year was 2000... it was quite likely that you could see a spike in stock value of 30% or more within a month on some stocks. I can add to that a bit I think. I do not trade US Stock with a US Broker but through a UK Broker with direct access to US Markets, with of course the necessary US authorisation re tax. So I cannot speak for actual US stock trade limits except I think the NYSE still may be using what they call "open outcry" to trade, the NASDAQ and Arch are electronic settlement I believe. However in the UK most shares down though the FT100/250 and some other smaller cap stock including more recently AIM shares is electronic. You need to look at a live "sets" book to understand how it works, BUT it is similar to the LindexX book although with many refinements including the ability to see posted prices of both buyers, sells (and if you are clever you can spot the Market Makers together with bots) I digress.... but on "sets" if you try to trade a price more than 5% above the last "best" buy or sell price you trigger an automatic auction process. What happens then is by a combination of the Volume Weighted Average Price and the new offered buy or sell, a new price is set which you trade from. The point I am making is that the system prevents (to a degree) efforts to "move" the market to you own short term advantage although again like anything else it can be circumvented (legally and not legally). The only exception to this is what they call "witching day and "triple witching day", which is connected with options expiry and is on the 3rd Friday of each month and quarter when the rules may be suspended. In the UK that might be for half an hour sometime between 10am and 11am (in the morning GMT time) The reason for this slightly off topic post though is to point out Linden could do their necessary research on such a system and implement it with the Linden Dollar Exchange. It would not prevent a long-term trend BUT it may help to stop individual people getting shafted on one off trades. Just a view of course. Finally for anybody else reading this who well understands how this system works, I have ignored the open and close auction process and other various FSA/LSE rules together with uptick/downtick US rules regarding shorting. This post is just designed as an overview to demonstrate a controlled process to trade in a semi live, and live market. Ah yes an afterthough....would some of the larger Linden Dollar holders welcome a means of hedging their LInden Dollar holdings by either buying or selling covered warrents on the Linden Dollar.....hmm that is in idea as it might help liquidity
Calix Metropolitan Registered User Join date: 10 May 2005 Posts: 212	04-01-2006 03:05 From: Sabrina Doolittle Ok I just came to post about this same PL answer. The title of my thread was going to be "Ok, NOW I'm scared..." but this will do. When the President and CEO of a company doesn't realise the following, the company is in deep ca-ca: 1. The economy is not driven by availability of currency. IT IS DRIVEN BY LAND PRICES. 2. Linden Labs controls the base rate for land prices by what they charge for First Land. A 20% fluctuation is acceptable when it's +/-10%. A 20% DROP in the value of the currency isn't the same thing. Given the 7% addition of new money supply every month, we should be seeing inflation. But we're not - we're seeing deflation. Something is very very wrong here, and it ain't stipends or dwell. To paraphrase Bill Clinton: IT'S THE FIRST LAND PRICES, STUPID. Quick question, posed to anyone in this thread...Would you stop playing if 1usd = 360L? Simple yes or no, because I think that might be more important trying to read into the words of the game's CEO out of context...I'm sorry, but I for one am not going to jump off a bridge b/c of some excerpt quote merely used to cause a nervous selling frenzy. (and there is no need to get into the well you probally...b/c I do in fact trade on lindenX) Today is April Fools day...hmm _____________________ Games Developer - Public Relations - Support / Free Culture Advocate and Occasional Martian Saint --- Tempus Fugit Come play the hottest game in SL!!! TECH WARFARE @ Arcadia 1 (68, 154, 22)
ReserveBank Division Senior Member Join date: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 1,408	04-01-2006 03:19 From: George Flan When is RBD going to realize that all his ranting and raving is not going to change a thing. Learn to live with it. I still think it is one or maybe two people dumping on SL just to make more money and try to bring in their own form of currency. When is the back woodsman from West Virginia going to realize that his ranting and raving isn't going to change how free markets operate? _____________________

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