This is a very interesting development, and certainly a risk by LL. During the initial period of trial and error we could easily have many failed experiments. Residents in those groups could end up at odds with each other, perhaps divided into factions, each appealing to LL to 'do something'. Meaning: 'do something against those who don't see things my way'.
On the plus side for LL, it would be the group that boots perceived sign extortionists, not LL.
One salient point must be factored into this picture: it's now very difficult to get rid of a group officer. According to the thread here only the group founder can get rid of a group officer, and only by calling a LL help number. This opens the door for founders to have dictatorial powers. Other people in the group cannot get rid of the founder nor the founder's alts, which might be the only other officers. However the founder can get rid of any member whenever he chooses for whatever reason or excuse.
It's a very asymmetrical relationship -- perhaps not a desirable one for the non-founders, who simply want to pool land as a community to get the benefit of zoning.
Periodically we see discussions of governance models for sims and groups, ranging from voluntary residents associations to complex structures like Neualtenburg. It makes sense to check these proposals from a skeptical perspective. SL doesn't need a new system that could be abused by some powerhungry new arrival who comes into our world armed with huge financial resources and a desire to be an authority over the rest of us.
Could this new system be abused like that? I claim that it could. Sometimes the way a system could be abused is not obvious. You have to figure out how that powerhungry individual could exploit fundamental human motivations like greed, fear and the desire for attention. Obtaining supporters by exploiting these factors, the powerhungry newcomer could use this system to extend dictatorial authority over one sim after another. The result would be a de facto SL-wide government.
The zoning by group covenant experiment is worth trying, but not with a group structure that allows the founder to be a dictator. I'm interested to see what others have to say on this.
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Blumfield Residents Association |
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
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01-08-2006 12:35
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VzNevada Menoptra
Registered User
Join date: 1 Nov 2005
Posts: 211
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A few statements and questions...
01-09-2006 02:30
Remember, the difference is one of trust — you trust Linden Lab more than Anshe Chung  because really, at the bottom level, there is no difference (LL is also able to remove your land without explanation at all, under their Terms of Service, and I might say that they might have done that more often than Anshe, but that's another story  ). Anshe needs to work under a flawless reputation in order to keep her thousands of customers happy, like any other company in RL.What Anshe (or rather Dreamland) mostly does is provide value-added service. In the mainland, there are no rules, and disputes are only solved through abuse reports to Linden Lab, which rarely have any effect when there is a need to argue and make a decision based on morals and ethics, and not a "technical" decision. At Dreamland, you have clearly written rules, you know what you can count with, and there will always be people who actively enforce those rules (well, beyond all the rest — Dreamland is also about culture, not only "enforcing rules" — and they provide that as well).It seems, however, that all the Blumfielders' requests have not been ignored by Linden Lab. In about 3 months or so (could be sooner), there will be "zoned communities", a novelty for mainland sims. Although the descriptions leave more questions than give answers, it looks like the way it will work is tying "convenants" (a contract between all members) to a group, and thus, group-owned land will be able to be subject to those rules. If someone has violated one of rules, the whole group can vote to "empower" one of their members to correct the offense. How exactly this is going to work is anyone's guess, and the discussion has not even started! But the good news is that Blumfield, perhaps not yet in mid-February, but eventually a few weeks after that, will be able to join this model of "zoned community" and somehow address all issues related to your urban planning that way. Also, if someone sells their land to someone else, that someone else will have to read the "covenant" and accept it. So this really means that everyone inside that "zoned community" will have to comply with the rules. And of course these can be changed — everyone just has to agree together on a new covenant! Although Anshe owns her land and is conducting a thriving and safe community, however when push comes to shove, LL still owns the land she owns...and they can also in turn take it back as well as take ours back...isn't that so? If I'm wrong, then I certainly stand corrected. Her Dreamland lots certainly do look inviting and the invitation to own is more than tempting. The prices quoted for new owners are for people under the 60 day time slot...is that right? About Blumfield and zoning: When our land becomes group land, will things change in the future in the way of who owns our land? Right now as I see it in many areas, group land is owned by the group. Will the future new zoning plans include a change, so that we will have the ability to maintain our ownership independently? Great discussion Gwyneth. You covered a lot of things that we're all thinking about and considering. Thank you |
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Patch Lamington
Blumfield SLuburban
Join date: 2 Nov 2005
Posts: 188
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01-09-2006 11:57
re zoning proposals
Could this new system be abused like that? I claim that it could. Sometimes the way a system could be abused is not obvious. You have to figure out how that powerhungry individual could exploit fundamental human motivations like greed, fear and the desire for attention. Obtaining supporters by exploiting these factors, the powerhungry newcomer could use this system to extend dictatorial authority over one sim after another. The result would be a de facto SL-wide government. Hmmm.. I think total domination is unlikely to occur for anyone in SL - think you exaggerate a little here. We dont know much about zoning rules yet, but if zoning violations require multiple members to agree then it will be harder for a single person to dominate unfairly. If zoning votes are limited to land holders - and if landholders cannot be excluded from the system - then it will be harder to for a single person to dominate. Like any system, abuse is sure to be possible - but hopefully the potential for useful outcomes will override these. Im not even sure whether Blumfield would be able to get zoning - will it require everyone in a sim to agree? Will it simply cover the land held by those members who do agree? I think it will be quite tricky to implement well... maybe we should start a new thread _____________________
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VzNevada Menoptra
Registered User
Join date: 1 Nov 2005
Posts: 211
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I just received this message now...
01-09-2006 14:34
The Blumfield Residents Association will hold a meeting at 2 p.m. SL, Tuesday, Dec. 13, at the office of Pathfinder Linden, who has kindly agreed to meet with us. All residents and interested observers are invited to attend. We hope to learn what our options are in creating a community, whether we can or should have zoning and whether we can have community space. Gwyneth Llewellyn has graciously accepted our invitation to act as moderator as we proceed with our discussion. If you are interested in attending, please IM me so we can have a head count to determine if a bigger meeting space is needed. Residents are encouraged to visit other sims, such as Boardman, for comparison. I just received this message today. |
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
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01-09-2006 15:44
re zoning proposals Hmmm.. I think total domination is unlikely to occur for anyone in SL Im not even sure whether Blumfield would be able to get zoning - will it require everyone in a sim to agree? Will it simply cover the land held by those members who do agree? I think it will be quite tricky to implement well... maybe we should start a new thread Heh -- I don't think in terms of total domination either. : ) That's for strategy/combat games! For SL it's appropriate to think in terms of rules. Like who makes the rules and who enforces the rules and what kind of checks and balances are in place to prevent abuse of the rules. Consider the TOS. You've probably noticed that SL residents can get outraged at something that looks like a violation of TOS under their interpretation. The cry goes up for LL to enforce that interpretation of TOS. Sometimes it seems that LL is reluctant to do much enforcement, especially in land based disputes. When I speculate about some powerhungry newcomer with a desire for authority over the rest of us I mean a person who wants a system where his/her interpretation of the rules would prevail, and enforcement is at his/her discretion. (I'm not speculating about what the enforcement would be, however). Agreed -- a new thread is a good idea. There's one in PoliSci forum, since this is more about governance than the economy, although it's certainly about land too. Blumfield residents might prefer a Blumfield-specific new thread here, though. |
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Lauren Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 1 Feb 2005
Posts: 36
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Next steps for Blumfield / West Haven
01-09-2006 18:28
West Haven and Blumfield continue to give us great feedback about what some SL residents want. Thank you for your patience and help in developing these communities. Admittedly, there were some flaws, and we will soon be sending a West Haven/Blumfield resident survey to ask your honest feedback about the experience.
The land in these communities will be set to "transferable" in mid-February. The exact date and hour will be emailed/IMed to Blumfield/West Haven residents within a couple of weeks. Before that time, the residents of these communities will have the option to: - Refer friends (details will be emailed/notecard-ed at a later date) - Purchase land around/near their current plot Keep posting! We learn a lot from reading it. Thank you! Lauren Linden [email=surrealty@lindenlab.com]surrealty@lindenlab.com[/email] |
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Lauren Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 1 Feb 2005
Posts: 36
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01-09-2006 18:30
I just posted about this. You will definitely have the change to buy land first, and refer friends around you first.
Hi Patch Although all of your ideas are great and I too think the residential community is the best one for all of us... There is still the issue of land ownership: Mostly everyone is open to sell in February, and I think it would be very helpful if they let us know in advance and give US the opportunity to buy the land first. Naturally the land is only desirable if it's next to our own lots, but there may be someone who wants more land no matter where it is, for realestate purposes...so I think selling within first, is a question to ask the community about. Also if we could do what Boardman did, and make an area for shopping...that may help the business situation for our residents. I myself want more land, since our prim usage is very limited within a 512m Lot. What do you think? |
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Patch Lamington
Blumfield SLuburban
Join date: 2 Nov 2005
Posts: 188
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woot
01-10-2006 04:18
what else can I say?
meanwhile, Traxx's thread discussing zoning powers and potential abuse is here 81469 _____________________
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VzNevada Menoptra
Registered User
Join date: 1 Nov 2005
Posts: 211
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This is getting to sound more like work...LOL!
01-10-2006 14:50
what else can I say? meanwhile, Traxx's thread discussing zoning powers and potential abuse is here 81469 I just read over the meeting notes and the remarks...sigh... I don't know if I care to get involved in this discussion. I want to enjoy my time here and it seems it's becoming a lot like work. I love Blumfield just the way it is...but if we did turn into a dictatorship or anything in that order...it wouldn't be very difficult to TAKE my house and move. Thank GOD this is virtual reality and not the real world At least not where I live...LOL!On another note, I wouldn't hesitate to defend Blumfield if the situation arises...but I am hoping that we can all get along well and continue to have the fun we've been having as a fantastic group of friends ) |
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Patch Lamington
Blumfield SLuburban
Join date: 2 Nov 2005
Posts: 188
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01-10-2006 16:59
On another note, I wouldn't hesitate to defend Blumfield if the situation arises...but I am hoping that we can all get along well and continue to have the fun we've been having as a fantastic group of friends )Yeah, the covenant stuff will be work for some - although it isnt here yet, so no point worrying too much about it for now. Until we see the shape of the new system with more details, we cant do too much anyway. _____________________
Blumfield - a regular everyday kind of 'burb in an irregular world.
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VzNevada Menoptra
Registered User
Join date: 1 Nov 2005
Posts: 211
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True not much we can do...
01-10-2006 18:04
Yeah, the covenant stuff will be work for some - although it isnt here yet, so no point worrying too much about it for now. Until we see the shape of the new system with more details, we cant do too much anyway. Yep not too much we can do...but we can keep having fun ) I really enjoyed the last pool party that Jeanne threw. I think so far we've been pretty successful. I hope it keeps moving in that direction |