Demand side issues

Ok lets get this started.

Lets take a break from the supply side stuff: monetary policy from LL.

Frankly we all know that if SL stop being fun, SL will die. (all the money that is keeping the SL economy afloat are from end users who are paying for entertainment for one kind or another)

So what can be improved in SL to stimulate growth on the demand side?

For starter I'm throwing an ideas out, from my own experience.

Better Zoning/ development control on mainland:
I just got rid of my 4096 sqm of land because I was surrounded by lag monsters clubs and casinos. Should there be zoning: Commercial, residental, mixed, etc? How can regulations be maintained? Surely this is what majority of the private island owners do to make money, so it can be done. Could or should LL do it too?

I like the suggestions about zoning, and have been an advocate for it for a long time.

Why can't LL give residents who want them management responsibilities for themed mainland sims, to keep things as per the guidelines of that region? If someone repeatedly breaks the rules and refuses to comply, then they can be reported with logs to LL to decide whether to discipline the person breaking the rules.

There is also the side bonus that better mainland management would encourage more people to buy land if it was actually going to be an attractive area.

For more people to want to own land and go premium, there has to be more incentive. The stipend alone is no longer sufficient because people can just rent from someone. Knocking out little things like preventing basic accounts from joining groups would stop a lot of that problem and make renting less of an attractive option.

Finally, I'd add two levels of cost for each land tier - one (higher) for commercial activities where people are going to make money off of SL, and a lower rate for those of us who want more land but don't have a chance (or desire) to turn to sex or gambling in order to raise money to cover their tier.

Lewis

I strongly disagree with creating different types of land tiers since it costs LL the same amount of resources to maintain "residential" sims as opposed to "commercial" sims. Of course LL could do this by making void mainland sims with lower prims/performance and charge lower tier.....ultimately we all get what we pay for.

But you can do this - you'll just have to pay to do so. But that's actually perfectly normal - part of being a manager is that you need to have a stake and a responsibility in the outcome of the thing you are managing; that's why business managers always get bonuses. If they didn't do this, there'd be huge amounts of drama over who gets to be a manager, why it was them but not me, what happens when managers disagree, what happens when two bordering sims are controlled by different managers, etc, etc, etc..



I think it's already been mentioned several times that taking things away from basic accounts wouldn't do anyone any good, and it'd be far better to give extra things to premium accounts. Oh, and the stipend is sufficient - I've not yet seen any rentals that are L$2000/month cheaper than the equivalent tier.



This is a very good point. At the moment, there actually is a discounted tier rate for non-profit, but it's only available to RL non-profit organisations. Opening up something similar to people who agreed not to make a profit in SL would be a great idea to encourage interesting, less commercial areas.

I have taken the issue up with Philip Linden personally, and we are in discussion over the issue.

Right now, I could build SL's biggest and best fun build - but finance it entirely out of my own pocket, and likely get back in donations only a fraction of its monthly cost.

Compare that to a flat sim with a huge square mall full of rent-o-matic boxes that offers only commercial activity, and no aesthetic value whatsoever outside of whatever the people there might be selling. It's rentals are priced so that the owner covers the cost and makes money month after month.

Sure, both have an appeal to certain groups - but I think that an attractive non-commercial build that provides fun to everyone trumps a mall that is only of use if you have money, any day.

Look at the "popular places" list. They're either casinos/gaming places, malls or clubs, all of whom cover their costs by money changing hands. Nowhere to be seen is anything else. However, it's often forgotten that "popular" does not necessarily equal "best" by any means.

Lewis

Zoning has plus's and negatives. Zoning would place big business at the advantage since they are established and have the funds to do as they want. On the other hand anyone trying to grow a business from the bottom up would face obsticles.

The big problem has always been a small land owner moving in and dominating the sim as their business grows. A big part of that equation was camping chairs in the past. The elimination of dwell and traffic has helped to some degree but they are still out there.

Other business's such as small stores never caused any problem and suggesting sweeping changes that will hurt these small business operators would be a great injustice since their demands are not any more then a active home owner.

Because of the injustices a zoning system would bring on people who don't deserve to be a target, I am opposed to any form of zoning. This is not the way to solve the real problems.

Hmmm, it dawned on me after writting my last post that perhaps the solution isn't all that elusive. People are already familiar with prim limits and the mechanics it involves. Having a system of script limits on mainland community sims (Not Privately Owned) that operates the same as the prim limits based on land size would probably solve most of the problems on the main grid. Not so much the amount of scripts but the actual script times and demand on sim resources.

You are discussing the demand side. The question is, what would be fun to do, and how could people be encouraged to build and run those things?

I love a beautiful build, but I wouldn't spend much time there if there were no one to talk to and nothing to do.

Thats a really good question. You know as well as I that two systems that were created were exploited and finally eliminated rather then just going after the exploiters. That leaves us now with nothing. Unless something can be commercialized, it is a drain on the creator and their problem. The only attractions this will leave are from people who have other resources and can afford to give something back in the form of a club or park. I suppose this is fairly close to a mimmic of RL though.

I know myself, I recently created a small club on the fourth floor of my store that has cost me nothing but money but has been fun. I don't care if it is always a drain on resources, I never built it to make anything from it. I suppose you could equate that to a business sponsorship of public entertainment. I also suppose this will be the only form of funding of public venues in the future.

Like most things there are good and bad to zoning. When done right, zoning can help bring like minded people together. On the flip-side, over-regulation or unfaired rules could increase disputes.

LL actually did something like that remember Shermville? A friend of mine lives there and she is very happy. Biggest problem, is the resource needed to manage things, any time something goes wrong human intervention is needed. Is the benefit worth the cost? Something to think about.

I'm gonna marry you one day, you just don't know it yet..


As for a demand side idea, I'm throwing out the idea of Commodities. LL needs to setup SL in such a way that doing one thing or another requires the acquisition of a commodity. And those commodities are priced in Linden Dollars.

So for instance, if you want to build a structure taller than 100m2, you have to get a "Tall Building Permit". These permits are in limited supply. They can be bought/sold on an exchange. Those who want to build tall, have to pony up the L$. Those who don't need their permit anymore or wish to cash in on its increased value can sell it. But the end-all,be-all is the fact that assets in SL with L$ value add to the demand side equation for Linden Dollars. Helping to hold up its value.

This is an excellent idea, and assuming it could be enforced, could add to SL greatly. Heck, this could even turn into a community event, players could submit proposals for public sims and the winner gets a free or low cost sim to build what they proposed.

We could even let Lewis orbit those who propose malls or strip joints.

Way to think of ideas to totally drain the fun out of SL and completely miss the point of Kelly's post.

What fun is SL if you want to put monitary limits on creativity?

I'm sure I can't be the only one who has great plans for non-commercial stuff but is put off because of the cost. Recent experiments of mine (which I can't elaborate on right now as it's part of a larger plan) in an empty sandbox island drew about a dozen people who were passing by and decided to play with what I was building. That was with no advertising at all, so I can't begin to imagine what number of people might turn up if they actually saw it in a Search or something.

The "birthday sims" that are usually the vehicle testing area seem to be 'hireable' for short term events - what we need are a few more of these that people can put in bids for and use to benefit the community by giving them something to do - and may possibly encourage a few ditherers to 'bite the bullet' and buy more land to have their dream permanently.



*whips out weapon*

Oops... the forums are meant to be PG aren't they?

*zip*

Lewis

That's what RBD exists for. He believes that if you can't make a profit from it, it shouldn't be in SL.

What we are discussing here is almost like poison to his ears, because it is promoting doing things for fun and enjoyment, instead of profit.

Lewis

If the creators need more money, they can apply for a loan at the Reserve Bank and use their land as credit. If they default, I just repo their land and put it on the foresale block. Who said there won't be any fun?

There are no monetary limits.. Its all about risk management. If somebody wants to take out thousands of dollars in loans on a risky widget they plan to sell, it won't be my problem if sales are bad... But they will have access to all the capital they need.

RBD:
I'm happily married. And I don't think you and I are going to get a long at all.

I don't like the tall build permit idea, that really is just another sink.

I've check around on some private continents. They have guide lines on builds, like height restrictions, theme, etc. Take Caledon for example, in additional to commercial/ residential zone, they have guide lines to period theme as well as height restrictions, off theme builds are to be built as sky boxes at a certain height band.

Could this be implemented on a wide scale over the mainland?

it is probably not possible/ to implement this on the existing sims, but what about newly created sims?

A few issues:
TOS --> it certainly limit the freedom of an individual on their build if one was to be on a zoned sim.

Enforcement --> on a private sim, since the land is "privately" own, the sim owner can easily ban or restrict access to offenders. But if the owner is LL can they limit users access to LL owned/ mainland sim?

Management resources --> automatic tools can only go so far, a lot of times it would require human intervention, where can LL find the staff to do that? There is already lots of complain on poor customer service as is. Adding new work would only make that worst.

I donno about the sink factor. Sinks remove L$ from the economy. They end up in the L$ Bit Bucket called /dev/null. Having a permit which becomes a commodity because of its limited supply locks in value. Think about, JohnDoe needs to build something of XX height. To do so, he needs to buy a permit off the exchange for L$10,000. Now initially, the 1st batch of permits come from LL and that money is put into the bit bucket. But from there on out, all trading of permits are between SLers (Buyers/Sellers).

So if JohnDoe needs L$10,000 to buy that permit, he has to first buy the L$ (becoming the demand side). Then he exchanges that L$10,000 for a permit. John Doe gets his permit and the seller gets L$10,000. What they do with the cash is up to them. But until its sold on LindenX (if ever) the value of the permit becomes a locked in dollar demand for the L$. Thus creating Linden Dollar Denominated Assets in SL..

Not to far off from Land Transactions. You buy the initial land from LL, but thereafter all land is traded between the citizens. Making land buying a demand pull for Linden Dollars.

Overall, the goal is to fill SL with commodities that have Linden Dollar Value. And if the commodities (whatever they might be) can be worked into the fabric of what people in SL need, want, etc, they will help to create demand for linden dollars. And if the L$ supply becomes limited, thanks to the end of stipends, the valuation of the L$ will rocket up.


The only snag with the future L$ policy I don't like, is the lack of a supply cap. Because the setup that LL proposes requires constant growth. If growth in SL halts and/or declines, so will the demand for linden dollars. Unless factors inside of SL generate more demand than new resident accounts wanting stuff..

While the "build height license" is a "demand" side possibiltiy, I don't think it is going to be a popular one. I'd rather see a fixed fee instead of making the permits as traded commodities.

Just like in the US ISP could implement per minute internet access like the rest of the world, they are probably not going to do it because of the possible backlash, unless there is added value to the new scheme (Wireless WAN).

All in all, I don't think creating commodities/ taxes/ licenses.. etc purely as economical vehicles to move money around add to the entertainment value for general SL users. Especially in this case it takes away features unless user pay a fee.

Back to the Zoning discussion:
Of course, there are already a healthy selections of third party ran themed sims out there, is that enough to suit the needs of the people who want zoned living?

Judging from past comments Philip has made I would guess his response might be that residents have already created zoned living areas in these sorts of sims and mini continents so it would be a waste of Linden resources to develop the mechanic to do it on the mainland.

As much as I think it would help to clean up the mainland a bit I do think there are plenty of alternatives for people seeking a more organized living environment. With the upcoming covenant and private estate changes in v1.12 I think you'll see even more of that....the main difference being that your money would go to the land holder instead of LL themselves.

Maybe a permit to build above, say, 300m would be an answer to those with skyboxes and abusive security scripts.... if you're going to grief innocent passers by, then at least you have to pay for the privilege of it.

Helps us flyers get a bit more freedom too.

Lewis

That is the challenge, there need to be demand other than just user buying stuff. As sooner or later everyone would own everything they ever need. Other MMO do it by hanging the next carrot out: new level, new items, new zones, etc.

What can SL do? That's what we need to find out.

Back to Zoning:
Zoned living is a service demanded by SLer, third party had tapped into that need and florished. The question is: should LL try to look into that or encourage the third party providers to continue to do what they are doing Maybe letting third party to run that service is the way to go.

That said, what about the future of the now largely chaotic, wild west like mainland be? From the land growth it appear LL is still trying to go for the land tier bucks is that wise?

Aye, the more I look at the tier setup, the headach to deal with possible nasty neighbours, owning anything less than a private sim doesn't make sense for me.

Maybe it's time for me to look for a good plot on a third party ran sim.

Whatever rocks your boat, but this is really, really not my idea of "fun."