Would removing voice entirely from the grid actually be an overall upgrade to SL now?

There is so much FUD about voice and SL in general it isn't even funny.

I've seen voice blamed for "lag" when it is IMPOSSIBLE because it runs on separate servers. It is an incredible low resource-using component; anyone with experience in voice chat knows that voice interfaces use few resources at all, besides a bit more bandwidth usage on the client side. Most of the management is on the server end, and as voice is on separate servers than the grid, if something happens to voice, it won't effect the rest of SL. And if your internet connection isn't up to snuff, you can simply disable voice.

I've seen voice blamed for the problems of this week, when as the Lindens have repeatedly told us, it is a _networking issue_ dealing with sim servers and has nothing to do with voice. That doesn't stop those who don't get that correlation does not equal causation for blaming voice for everything from crashing the grid to shooting their dog.

The true issue has nothing to do with "voice ruining SL's performance." That is just a smokescreen because some people are vocally anti-voice for personal reasons. The true issue is that some people are afraid of social change in SL, and it is obvious that voice _will_ and _is_ causing such changes. If you want to tout your silly little anti-voice agenda, then please be honest about your motivations and concerns rather than blaming voice for issues it cannot possibly cause.

Speaking of the use of the word "lag" itself, it has become so vague that it is near meaningless. What kind of lag? Is it asset server lag? Avatar update lag? Lag dealing with teleports etc? Renderlag from having an underpowered system and in a crowded area where there are tons of "walking 4096" four-digit-primcount avatars? Lag because your connection isn't fast enough for SL, or because you are downloading something at the same time?

Seriously, if you want to spout uninformed opinions looking for something to blame, you risk making yourself look either like a huge troll or completely misinformed. If you merely complain and complain without even so much as stating what you are complaining about, you look like a huge whiner. The problem is that people have unrealistic expectations of everything to "just work automatically" without them having to diagnose problems on their own end that are independent of SL, or expect everything to run smoothly in an environment with user-created content that is often unefficient and the primary source of lag.

Oh please.

Yadda yadda, anyone who complains just fears change, yadda yadda. It's a very tired argument already.

The problem with all of your assumptions is you assume that there are no underlying faults with the code. Ideally, you are correct - voice should not cause significant instability or system slowdown. But it was never tested in this scale, so the reality of the situation is a relative unknown. For example, the "voice is on another server, so it can't cause problems" argument - fine, except that the "other server" has to interface with the existing servers, which is a potential point of problem.

1. sorry, you're wrong. Period, end of the discussion. I'm not going to debate the NEED for users to test the software when it is no longer in the Lindens hands for testing. You did not help test it? Guess what? You lost your right to complain about it.

2. Yep, you have. There is currently no evidence to support Voice being the source of these issues. Please try again.

3. Hmm, could it perhaps be a bit of code the Lindens added into the servers to test it? Oh no, of course it couldn't be that! Everything is the fault of voice and the data gathered from 45,000 people using it is false! right ...

4. Want a proper load test? Gee - maybe you should actually help test the software then!

5. Um, it isn't 'right up there with' anything at all. It's a simple fact: They're never going to come out and tell you that they did something that messed up the servers.

6. Yes, "Full Stop". My information came from actually - you know - READING the blog and following logic and common sense. Mess with the server code to test out some new string of code, you're going to have problems. That's all there is to it.

7. A guess means nothing to me right now. You do not know the opinion of each and every user of second Life - nor do I. Neither of us is empowered to make a statement concerning majority opinion. again, that is the way it is.

good day - I'll read or respond to you when you actually have something substantial to say.

Wow. Almost nothing in there addressed anything substantial I said. I guess it's far easier to act like a pretentious git.

And let me know what software industry you work in that relies on it's customers for testing to the same extent LL does. I'd seriously love a new career that didn't require near as much effort.

Yes, it would be an upgrade to remove voice.

1. I never claimed to be in the software industry.

2. whatever experience you have is not of any consequence to this topic, nor does it change the way testing is done with Linden Lab or Second Life. either help out with proper stress testing or stop complaining.

3. You have said nothing substantial at all.

4. Being as you have said nothing substantial whatsoever in your responses to me and have provided no evidence to back up your claim (not that you could), it would seem there is no further point in debating this topic.

respond with something substantial or do not respond at all. I'm not in the mood to deal with BS today.

New information has been brought to my attention indicating that voice causes retarded threads by people that don't have a clue as to what they're talking about.

Film at 11...

Shhhh. That was supposed to be A Secret.

*moves*

I did say that 'in my book' (I'm immersed in IT and software development) where:

Upgrade - means new code and trading in some known bugs and performance bottlenecks for brand new and unknown bottlenecks and bugs.

Downgrade - means old code and usually means going back to a known state and known problems because the old version performed faster or more reliably than the new.

You did qualify it with 'overall' which does pretty much negate my nit-picking. I was going to reply with "removing voice is a downgrade, not an ugrade, but that doesn't mean it won't be an improvment".

I think I have to disagree with this based on some common sense. I downloaded the new voice client and had so many problems that I did not have previously. I crashed repeatedly and locked up even more frequently. So I uninstalled that client, installed the prevoice client that we used just before voice and have not crashed or locked up since.

It would be intellectually dishonest to not connect my new crashing and lockup problems to the new voice client.

Ah.

Well, I'm not in IT. I was just speaking ordinary English, not IT-modified English (which I fear I don't know). Or ITese, or ... well, whatever you call the dialect in question.

In the future, please assume that if standard English conflicts with IT-modified English, I'll be speaking the standard variety and very likely ignorant of the IT version. In turn, I'll try to remember that "your book" has a modified definition of "upgrade," now that I've been made aware of it.

This will all serve to promote improved communication!

Gotta hit Control-Alt-Delete on all of your insight into people and their motivations, cause you don't have any. With that said:



Thought the word impossible had been proved unwise enough times in history to give one pause before using it, but I guess not. Anways can you tell me where the computations for 3D sound distribution are taking place? If you are saying it's the server, then are you telling me that the sound has already been processed and mixed before it ever reaches the client? Is the server aware of the client's driver and speaker situation as well, sending customized data configured to work with each client? If not, then it is still the client's job to talk to its own hardware. Rendering 3D sound is no less taxing to the system than rendering 3D graphics. Skype doesn't render 3D - maybe that's what you meant. If the clients don't have the capacity to handle an additional 3D rendering process, then who really cares whether the voice servers are here or in BF Egypt?



If the Lindens tell you to jump off a building cause you won't hit the ground, does that mean go do it? With what's been happening with what they say I'd think twice if I were you because the LL provided safety chute you planned to land in probably won't rez.



For someone who talks as though he has vast experience in the arena, you're implied expectation that end-users break down their symptoms in such technical detail is very suspect.



Are you the inspiration for comic book guy on the Simpsons? I love that guy

Bullshit. An end user , especially one who pays to use a service should expect a sufficently tested product.

I'm not blaming anything in particular, but SL has run fairly well for me. Since the last update, that hasn't been true. No changes were made on my end. Whatever the problem is, someone fix it please.

"You did not help test it? Guess what? You lost your right to complain about it."

Only death can revoke someone's right to complain about something.

And some people have written statements prepared even for that eventuality.



You sound as if LL put "mandatory beta-grid participation" into the ToS.

Not sure why that is so hard for some people to understand sweets. There are a few people in here that I'm just gonna have to start calling Admiral Blueskies, because no matter what the hell reality stares them in the face it's all just sunshine lollipops and rainbows and every difficulty anyone ever has can be summed up entirely by what they see in their own mirror.

This forum is starting to remind me of the movie Flightplan.

"Where is my daughter - she was sitting right next to me and now I'm back from the bathroom and she's gone! This is a problem - do something."

"You don't have a daughter that checked in for the flight. There's nothing we can do - it's your imagination. But just so you know, you're a bit of a bastard for making all this fuss since at least 3 of the 480 people on the plane have daughters who aren't missing. That means there is no problem."

Please! Sod Off. And for the record, repeating the first three lines of the LL brochure about voice being on different servers is the fastest way I've seen to show that you don't know much about the OSI model or where the server's responsibility for a transaction begins and ends.

It's more than that. I don't want to dredge up the old tech argument, but there are a percentage or users who are technically orientd, usually working in the field, or serious hobbyists who apply their thinking to all of us. They love fiddling, poking, beta testing programs, so why shouldn't everyone else? LL has to decide who they want to target SL for. The Silicon Heads, so they can make it like a Transistor Radio kit, or the the average person, who wants plug and play and go have fun.

SL is a POS since they added voice, a frakking buggy POS.

Voice has worked out okay for me, although I do not often use it. The Communicate window, however, is a disaster.

So, I could not vote, because "other" would fit best.

As usual when something in beta grid work ok, then used on main grid it goes straight to hell , was expecting something as usual, but now they have alot of issues if thats due to network issues or voice i dont know.

All i can say is SL right now is the worst i seen in a long time, usually they manage to fix it (or just disable/hide the new future) after a few days,now its horrid, bid you good luck whoever trying to fix this o.o;

Tried voice a few times on beta grid, nothing for me, as im not english speaking and understanding spoken english is way harder then reading it, and sitting in a room alone talking ~.~ is wierd im dos generation!.

I purposely avoided including options like that.

I don't want to know who votes "other." I'm not interested in who is "unsure" or just "doesn't care." I couldn't care less who would prefer "pie."

I want a simple "yes" or "no" from people on whether they think removing the voice client again would improve SL. I understand what you're saying (and I agree about the Communicate window), but I dislike confusing and ruining the results of polls by adding a lot of unnecessary or even silly options. I kept it deliberately simple.

"Don't know" is not a silly option. The fact of the matter is, none of us _really_ know the answer to your question. We can only make assumptions based on what we know. Although I've researched the implementation of voice and tried to understand its general architecture and relationship with SL simulators, I'm _still_ not sure about the answer to your question. So apparently I'm excluded from your poll.

Sure, pie is silly, but that is kind of the point about such binary yes/no polls.

"Well I don't know, so I guess I have to say no," is an option which skews the result, so pie as a third option is better than no third option at all.

It's not that it's a silly option, it's that it's an unnecessary option. You either can remove voice, or you can not remove voice. In determining what most would prefer, it's unimportant to know who's "undecided." You can't "sort of but not really but yeah kinda" remove voice. It would have to be one or the other. Hence a one or the other poll.

Not to say Linden Labs will do ANYthing based on this poll ... just that for our purposes in determining what people would prefer if LL DID listen, this tells us what people would tend to choose.

Ah, I interpreted the question differently then.

"Would removing voice entirely from the grid be an upgrade?"

I didn't think it was asking me whether voice should be removed, just whether removing it would be beneficial. Hence, I do not know; and I doubt anybody else does either.

Well, it seems the majority is pretty sure that a coincidence here is unlikely. I don't care what some of the would-be tech experts have to say about how it's on another server and blah blah blah. I've heard tech excuses before that turned out in practice to be total bunk, so I can somewhat take those with a grain of salt.

Calling simply on my powers of common sense alone, I can see that there's a better than average chance of a connection between voice and the recent problems. It's sort of like how I don't need to be a forensics expert to observe a smoking gun and a person killed by a gunshot wound and already know there's a strong probability of a direct connection between the two.

Then, too, some simply hate voice and will vote based on that alone ... and vice-versa.