Buying Linden Dollars

Since it seems that there are serious limitations in some folks mind concerning what the game environment provides because of limits in resources, the obvious question is what is the limitation for lindens concerning the allocation of resources? The answer is the amount of RL money coming into the the game. With that obvious point made and remade over and over, how do we get around that? The answer is that the monthly fee or beta package gets you what the rules says it gets you, but if you want to pretend your Bill Gates on-line and are willing to pay for it in RL money, why not make that available? I don't have any idea what the exchange rate would be or if it would strike any current or eventual user as worthwhile, but I would like to throw it out as a way around build limitations based upon resources. The answer being the resources are related to what you pay. Maybe someone who wants to be a SL Bill Gates would be willing to pay extra dollars a month or one exchange deal at a time inorder to get closer to that.

The secondary benefit to this is the explanation behind why the feature is available and necessary may go a long way to explaining one of the most contentious but necessary realities behind the nature of the world visa vie resources and taxes.

I can understand why such a thought might not come up during beta when in fact no RL money is involved, but why should it be a limitation in the commercial SL product. I think 15 dollars is a reasonable average willingness to pay. But if others are willing to pay more to have more, it adds to the health of the bottom line and people will have a better understanding as to why they have the limits that they must live with. The old saying you get what you pay for comes to mind.

While this idea is amusing to consider -- who /wouldn't/ want the equivalent of a multi-million dollar lottery win? -- it would royally screw with the points/ratings/taxes system.

If you really want to pay RL money for fake, check out There... <grins>

I honestly hate the idea of having real money for fake money. This is what immediatly turned me off to There. Please do NOT implement this!

Your real life financial standings shouldn't interfere with what you are able to do in the game.

I am not sure what multi-million dollar lotteries have to do with my proposal. We get 4000 linden dollars for 15 RL dollars a month as well as everything else. Even if economies of scale do not give you any better exchange rates, that means that at minimum you should be able to buy 266 linden dollars for every additional 1 dollar you give to the lindens without screwing up anything. Maybe nobody would buy the idea of paying 10 RL dollars for approximately 2,660 linden dollars, but to be honest with you I am so tired of hearing about all the bitching and moaning about resources and taxes and how these over fantasized minds can not deal with the limitations of the game, I thought I might offer a way they can do whatever they are willing to pay for.

I'd prefer if Linden dollars and real money were kept entirely separate. On the other hand, if the other online communities are any indication, there's going to be Linden dollars being traded on eBay no matter what. Linden dollars will be sold even if explicitly banned in the TOS. There's no way around it. Some people just have more money than sense.

Under the assumption that this can't be stopped, then, would we rather the voting booth farmers and the rate miners profit from their behaviour, or the Lindens make some extra money on the side?

But where does the money come from? We certainly don't want the Lindens selling Linden dollars out of the stipend pool, but we also don't want them fabricating Linden dollars out of nowhere. On the other hand, if the Linden dollars are fabricated but the money used to buy them is allocated directly towards increasing server resources, we might all benefit.

This requires some careful thought.

I don't know if I could (as in *would*) continue playing if LL were to start selling Linden bucks for Washingtons. Just doesn't sit well with me.

I wouldn't have any problem with individual players selling their own L$ for real dollars, however.

As a matter of fact, I've got an extra L$15,000 -- who'll start the bidding at $500 USD ?

<G>

#!

It really has nothing to do with RL --> SL dollars. Nice idea in 'concept', but the issue really is Hardware Server resources (compute power). The Lindens have a model of what each 'sim' (a single computer server runs each sim) can support in AVs, objects, scripts, textures, etc. AND still keep performance levels acceptable. This is why they have a schedule (unpublished) of how often they bring a new server (sim) online per every X number of user signups, to keep the average server load in balance. Its all about conservation of available computer resources.

With this understanding, we can see that IF they sold Linden $, at 'almost' any exchange rate, they would A.) flood SL with too many objects etc. thereby 'taxing' the servers to such slow performance rates as to be unuseable. B.) force themselves to bring online more servers (to maintain performance levels) than their planned investment thereby increasing their overhead faster than their planned income (resulting in real $ loses and eventual collapse). C.) People with RL resources could 'buy' their Bill Gates status in SL, we could end up with dozens or hundreds of 'Bill Gates' types which would completely ruin the SL economy and 'game play' for the rest of us.

I mentioned 'almost' any exchange rate, they could charge a high enough exchange rate that would allow them to bring servers online to compensate for the infux of objects from 'purchased L$', but it would probably be higher than anyone would want to pay for a game.

There.com is a 'good' bad example of a pay for fake money system, it cost (last time I checked) $1 US for $1,700 ThereBucks. That MAY sound fine, except when you find that the average T-Shirt or simple garment in There.com can cost $10,000!!! You can buy a RL t-shirt for less than a online There.com shirt!

There.com has as part of their business plan the real life revenue stream of selling fake online dollars to those willing to pay for it, but at the same time the in-world economy is totaly out of whack. Why would I spend $6 RL for one lousy online t-shirt, I would not. If you want this kind of system, then I encourage you to check out there.com first, before suggesting it here.

- Mickey

(edited for typos)

Oh please give me a chance to succeed SOMEWHERE!

If your income in SL becomes a function of your RL wealth, there won't be enough difference between the two to make it worthwhile. Why should I carry my poverty with me into the virtual world too?

Just thinking out loud.

I hate the idea of spending real cash to inflate an avatars wallet. Mine or anyone elses. It totally takes away from the even playing field. We all start with the same and make of if what we can.

Its like the American dream. Some people acheive in game wealth through time and patience. Others through luck and timing and some even from cheating the system. I like it the way it is. Adding the "you can buy money" element changes all the dynamics and gives people with real world money to burn an "unearned" advantage.

If it were decided to add this feature I'd have to seek a refund on the basis the game wasnt what I was lead to believe prepurchase.

OK, maybe a little truth in advertising is warranted here. First of all I have no problem with the economic dynamic as it is. And yes the more I think about it the more I realize that what I at first thought would be a relatively world neutral way of appeasing certain malcontents is not neutral at all. But there must be at least 6 threads going on and on about taxes. If there is one RL debate that sends me through the roof is the pathetic RL bellyaching about taxes. So maybe I come to this world trying to get away from a few things too only to find that at least in the forums one is inundated with the same pathetic debate one fights in the RL politics.

So given what I just said I withdraw my request. BUt before I let it go, I do want to state that I think the lindens have a serious PR problem here because of taxes. It is not that the relationship between resources and ability to pay can not be explained, but you get too much RL baggage just using that one word. Call it something else. And make a real sustained effort to explain that this is not an unlimited fantasy world though fantasies within its limits can be had just as they can be had in RL.

BTW- If its not clear, I am totally against the idea of buying L$ from the Lindens (in the current economy model). If someone wants to sell or buy L$ on the 'open market' (like eBay), then have at it. This does NOT upset the SL economy, as the amount of in-world resources stays the same. It just shifts owners. It is the same thing as what goes on in SL right now, people exchanging resources (L$) for products and services, as well as charitable and community resource pooling. So while buying L$ on the open market maybe a shortcut to 'SL fortune', it does not effect the economy, it all evens out because the resource total is the same.

Now if you want to talk about the economy in general or specific (like taxes, etc.) there are plenty of other threads that cover the opinions as to whether the SL economy 'system' works or not.

Maybe they ought to box a home version of SL where you can have a sim sized area on your HD where you can build to your hearts content.

YES Mis I totally agree, it would be nice to have my own inhome virtual SL to avoid that trouble of dealing with online headaches. There is no way for one (once they reach a point of comfort financially and no longer rely on stip and rates) to be able to find solitude once they have had enough of the drama thats going on. *cough*Kissling*cough*

Wouldn't that just be The Sims (not TSO -- standalone version) then?

Or did you mean they should box a *server level SL version* where you could host your own sim on your own system, unconnected to any other sims (or possibly allow connections with appropriate password protections in place) that other people could come and play on with you? If this were to happen, I could certainly see the Owner being able to set stipends, bonus amounts, taxes, etc. at whatever they wish... This would Not Be Cheap, however...

#!

I agree with most of the posts here.

Isn't it amusing to watch some of these online experiments (not referring to SL of course!) re-learn lessons already learned in real life: Inflation, nepotism, unintended consequences, tax cheats... this list goes on.

I agree that allowing people who are well off in real life to buy fame and fortune in SL will be a turn-off, unless the SL target market becomes the readership of Yachting Magazine: http://www.yachtingnet.com/yachting/

I think the Lindens are trying to avoid such extremes though. A lot will depend on just how many people are using SL at any given time. How much does it cost LL to run a single sim for a month? I have no idea. A few hundred dollars at least, given current population would be my guess. I'm fairly sure that the cost goes down on a per sim basis as the number of sims increase, so more users should lead to lower costs. At some point it might make sense to allow a user to buy, or rent, for real dollars, their own sim. If that were to happen should such a sim be a part of the public grid? Or off in its own cyberspace? Or maybe such a thing would be a bad idea altogether...

In a previous VR that I used, individuals were not only allowed, but ENCOURAGED to buy their own virtual worlds. There were good aspects of this in terms of personal creativity etc. But the larger effect I think was to break the community down to the point where many "worlds" would have a steady population of one. Being "online" in your own little virtual world really isn't that much different than being offline is it?

I hope that whatever the rules turn out to be that they avoid the problems of community breakdown, both by geographical isolation and by separation of economic classes. And those class separations should be avoided both in terms of L$ as well as U$.

Yes SB a stand alone sim/server based on your own pc.

Doesnt have to be a network version but would be nice.

Single player Sims sux imo. Nothing like what SL single player could be.

So if I set up a voting booth farm with my group and take in a significant portion of the voting booth money each day, and rate mine with my group to take in a significant portion of the bonus fund each week, and sell these Linden dollars for real money, you would have no problem with it?

Sure it's possible to abuse those systems already, but there's a limit to what one can do with Linden dollars. It's a whole different story when one is trying to make a real life profit from the abuse: then there's no limit, and in effect we all (the SL community) pay for the abusers to continue their abuse.

Remember, the voting booth money is fixed at L$10000 per day, and the bonus fund is a certain portion of the collected taxes from each week. Taking more than a fair share out of either means taking money away from fair players. Sure, the economy as a whole is preserved through private selling of Linden dollars, but it's certainly not a harmless activity.

One way or another this issue has to be resolved. Greed is powerful. Linden dollars will be sold for real money. It just might be a good idea to reduce the damage as much as it can be reduced.

Oh, and I've tried There. It was interesting for about a week and US$10. That bought me a hoverboard and a shirt, as I recall, both of which fast became tiresome along with There itself. (Actually, it was while complaining about the limitations (and the inherent real money cost) of There to a co-worker that I found out about SL.) So yes, I've seen There, and how its "economy" works. I've also seen over three years of Asheron's Call, and how eBay has ruined it. Fortunately AC's cash and item economy has nothing to do with server resources, but game play most certainly was affected by those who cheated their way through the game into making hundreds or thousands of dollars through eBay. I would hate to see SL ruined by this sort of thing.

Bob, I agree. I am not advocating the open market approach, mearly recognising the fact that it can and probably will happen.

I think that there are a lot of in-world pressures and dynamics that would and can prevent someone (or a group) from trying to horde the daily vote monies. They may get away with it for a few days, but it soon would become apparent what was happening. The SL community and or the Lindens would then take action to 'limit' the ability to mine to that extent.

The open market can be a positive thing, used for 'good'. Group works, funding community projects etc. (for those who want to spend real dollars doing it). It, like anything else can be abused as well. I believe there are enough 'checks' in the system (not to mention the daily monitoring done by the Lindens), that the use of an open market to buy/sell L$ would not necessarily abuse or significantly impact the SL economy or our ability to enjoy it.

- Mickey

Thats more what I was meaning. It'd be a bit boring all by yourself but oh well. Your idea is kinda cool tho

I guess this is a good a place as any to rant this out (OK I've already ranted everywhere else too!). But I think the economy as it stands is way too complex, and I fear that in order to "fix" it more complexity will be added. Rather than describe all that I don't like about it, let me describe a fantasy land in SL terms:

A group of people have come to know one another well in SL. Two of them really like to build structures. One likes nothing more than making avatars. One is really into texturing, another writes scripts, but has little interest in building, other than the objects being scripted. Yet another just signs on to chat, and finally a couple of them like to play shoot-em-up with one another. Finally, one of the people likes to organize parties and other events and do all the advertising needed to make them a big hit.

Now, I've described it as 8 people, but it could also be 4 with some overlap of interests (for example the person who just likes to chat may also be the person who organizes events) or it may be 12, because there are 3 scripters and 4 builders, etc.

While it may sound a bit utopian, such a group could do just fine with each of them receiving a few thousand L$ a week in stipends and paying in turn for resource consumption of land, lights, scripts, objects, or anything else (resource-wise) that they care to measure. By pooling resources, and voluntary contribution of efforts, there would be no need for voting booths, no need for appearance ratings, behavior rating, or any other complications.

The irony is that the group of people described above actually exists. I'm sure there are several such groups of people formed in SL already, some are formed around the formal SL projects, some are just ad-hoc groups of people who are working together. Not only do we not NEED a complicated tax/voting system, its a downright burden to have to deal with such a thing. I don't want to keep a notepad next to my PC to populate a spreadsheet with which I can verify the accuracy of the SL accounting. Neither do I want to be cheated, or benefit from a windfall when the system goofs up. And finally I don't want my freedoms to enjoy SL limited because someone else has figured out a cheat, or simply "works the system" to my disadvantage.

The best system is therefore, in my opinion, a very simple one. We ARE resource constrained, so the economy is necessary to limit the total utilization of the system, but other than that, I see no reason not to just give people a fixed amount and let them spend, or give it away any way they chose. In such a system funds would flow naturally to people who do usefull things for others. A fairly SIMPLE tax system, graduated in some way, would keep a few people from owning everything.

As far as people using EBay to auction off excess L$, I don't see any way to prevent that from being possible. But if the system, as I said, prevented anyone from accumulating too large a percentage of the total wealth I think the opportunities to exchange L$ for U$ would be very limited.

I'll sell you 10 Linden Dollars over ebay per 1 US Dollar. *grin*

I have some L$ to spare lol

Going rate $10,000L for $500 american

Western Union or Postal money order only lol

I am inclined to agree with Mac Beach that simplifying things down and letting things happen naturally rather than artificial allottments of voting and such. People in the end will make there way much better by what they give in services and the way they join together in living and work rather than working within an arcane system of voting. I can work within the current system of voting but it seems like an artificail effort with little gain. Decide on a stipend, resources payment back to the system (tax) and let things fall the way they will.

Everything has been said already, but that's never stopped me before.

That game is called There. It sucks.

Also, consider this. To join one of the new communities, I had to leverage my Linden$ pretty heavily, freeing old stuff, calling in old favours and pimping for money pretty hard for a few weeks. And I'm going to be struggling for some time to meet the new taxes, and in the end the whole thing might go belly up and I'll end up loosing lots and lots of L$, it's a risk.

Now you're saying "under this proposal, you could just whip out the CC and buy some L$" which is true, but unfair and a bad idea for the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, this is not my point.

My point is that if there is an exchange rate between real $ and L$, which, for all pratical purposes makes L$ real $, there is no way I would take this kind of risk. I would not be willing to wager my real life money on this sort of thing.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble folks. This thread is totally moot.

The issue is already resolved: You can already trade US dollars for Linden dollars.



This is a terrible conversion rate. The game already as a much better rate:

$L 4 per $US 0.01.

Here's how you can get that conversion rate (as of June 23):
Buy a 'spare' avatar at the 3-month rate, which will provide you with about $L 1,000 in stipend per week, or $L 4,000/month. At $US10.00/month you get $L 4 = $US 0.01

Oh yeah! You get a jump start of $L 3,500 as well! Consider this your 'milking' bonus.

Honestly, folks. It's a fact. Sorry to burst any economic idealistic bubbles. Every game that has a user-economy and gives player starting and/or recurring income is subject to this calculation.

So, Linden Labs needs to ask itself: Do I want to pay the overhead of adding 'spare' avatar accounts while also diluting my user-count-metric, just for people who want to pay US dollars for Linden currency?

I know I'd rather not bother with the extra overhead of seperate accounts, just for the $L. It's a waste of resources, reduces Lindens profit margins and increases customer support costs.

The game should sell me $L4,000 for every $US 10.00 I want to spend, since that is the business they are already in.

I'm actually interested in spending a few bucks at that conversion rate. Today.

Oracle Omega