RL Censorship vs SL Freedom

For one, 'Texts are not considered child pornography in USA, because, the court has ruled repeatedly that the only valid basis for laws restricting free speech in this way is actual damage to real children. Any text or work that involves or depicts no real child, (and is not otherwise "obscene", is never illegal.' See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._Free_Speech_Coalition

DVD 'cartoons' and games depicting child nudity and provocative behavior are not allowed in the US because of the MPAA, the ESRB, and the willingness of sellers to sell them.

A good business policy, in the US.

They are not actually illegal, though I think they are listed as illegal to import, a different and shaky category altogether.

_personally_, and I may loose a few friends on this matter, I don't think most children that are not in, or heading into, puberty are physically or mentally capable of enjoying sexual intercorse.

A few, very rare, younger children do have a medical condition dealing with early sexual development, and I'm sure a few children do have the mental capacity to deal with sensations such as that, but most children would merely be psychologically and possibly physically damaged.

I know it hurt me when I was raped.

It took a long time to get over that, and I was 11 when it happened.

Oh, and the perpetrators were two 14 year olds.

My sordid little story, for what it's worth.

please be careful-
- when you take only a partial quote
- then write a post that reads like your disagreeing with me
- Including a lot of accusatory/inflamatory statements
- and then top it off by using "you" as in the portion of your post I highlighted.

Its is offensive.

I have not once in any thread said anything about children not having any rights.

I have not once in any thread said anything about adults not having any rights.

In fact Im in the anti age play camp.

And I think Linden Labs should remove it for Business reasons.

However - I can see someday a virtual world that much like the internet is 100% protected by free speech laws. Right now those laws allow some subjects to be discussed that would be insane for Linden Labs to allow in Second Life.

Such As -
-Racists propaganda (neo-nazis, racial supremacy, etc)
-within the boundaries of these child porn rules on virtual images (which do not seem clear cut) This Age Play material.

Does that mean I agree with either? - Of course not
- But 1st ammendment protections ae what they are. We in my town cant prevent Neo -Nazi demonstrations. They are protected by the right to assembly.

I'm sure it could be bad for Linden Labs' business, however they are currently the ones bringing up the whole stew when those engaging in their sexual play have been staying to their own areas, as far as I know.

Are you stating that all ageplayers are child molesters?

And you're calling me a narcisist and sociopath.

If that _is_ what you are citing, please see the documents I have linked in an earlier post detailing the definition of ageplay and psychological definitions pedophilia and child molestation.

Child molestation can not take place unless a _actual child_ is involved.

How strange.

I wonder, if the censorship that has started had been against anything else would you be quite so ready to toss out insults intending to bring the sanity of others into question?

Please leave the rest of your sociopathic tendancies in other threads, thank you.

I agree that _ALL SEXUAL ACTS_ should be relegated to private areas.

I sure as heck don't want to come across someone enactng a scat scene, especially if they happen to have prim generators to simulate it.

I don't think there should be much of anything that could be considered obscene happening where anyone else can see it.

Personally, I find a mega-mall suddenly being erected next door to me and lagging out the sim with all of it's particle effects and listeners and so on to be offensive.

It's happened to me.

I've moved and lost over a hundred thousand lindens just so I could move around on my own land without being snapped back constantly.

Actually, the proper spelling is paedophilia, if you're anywhere else in the world.

The American spelling drops the a.

Just so you know.

The link you gave us didn't say that, and if that's what they mean that's ludicrous. Do you have a more explicit reference?

Ah, thank you, did not know that. Just one more example of why America sucks.



No, I don't have a link, because you can only get said clarification through a Linden or, possibly, online help request, if they don't just make you e-mail support instead, something they love to do on this subject.

One of their secret gestapo tactics.

Also one of the reasons they _need_ to spell everything out so people can read it for themselves.

Robin Linden's words were, however, if you say you are anything under the age of 18, regardless if you also say you, the player, are over 18, they will accept it as that you, the player, is the lesser of the two ages, and suspend or ban your account.

I think live help can't say much, if anything, on the subject because no one can tell _them_ exactly what the policy is, either.

kinda think their only current choice is to give no age at all. to say they are over 18 defeats their RP

I know this really bothers the non sexual age players.

The sexual ones I suppose can at least understand why in their case.

For one, this is a forum about censorship in SL and the falicy of the even half-serious thought that the linden labs team is, in any way, paying attention to what the community wants.

They never _really_ listened to us, from day one.

And I'm proposing voting on other things you dislike, just to try and prove a point, that no matter how many people we get to say they hate something, those other things will remain.

Everyone _else_ keeps posting about ageplay, and I just answer some questions.

Speaking of answers to questions, why is it that at least half of the people on Forums are usually there with to post about something they hate, or are trolls looking to further or start arguments?

I think the people who are OK with things don't usually go on a forum, which is another reason it's absolute _STUPIDITY_ for LL to be taking the word of forum posters, _only_, rather than taking a vote in world, _IF THEY WERE ACTUALLY LISTENING, ANYWAY_.

Which they arn't.

It's got nothing to do with us.

'Community as a whole' indeed.

I guess everyone who's ok with ageplay or who doesn't give a sh** one way or another is also included in 'Community as a whole'.

Community as a _whole_ would mean everyone, save, perhaps, one or two individuals.

Parody and sarcasm is what most of my original post was about.

Strange how it's turned into me trying to point out the falacy of _their_ 'stated reasons' to everyone who just doesn't get it, or having to provide educational links for those ignorant of the real definitions of words they think they're using.

It amuses the living heck out of me, all of you with such anger at people doing nothing but roleplaying, when I, who _was_ molested, have more of a right to be outraged than _any_ of you.

You all go back to living in the darkness of ignorance and hatred, now.

I choose the light of education and tolerance, even of things I personally dislike, so long as it's not really hurting anyone.

Oh, as a closer, perhaps if you'd bothered reading more than the first post, you'd have found out some of these points, for yourself, including my own statement, several times, that I wholeheartedly agree that all sexual acts should be in private.

That includes even vanilla heterosexual acts, thank you.

I have to ask you the same thing I asked Jamie: can you provide a reference?

They never listen to forum posters opinions either. lol. Or not the ones that disagree. Actually thats more accurate - They listen to any community opionion that supports them.

One reason given for removing a large section of the forums is the disent upset LL employees...


Still think the stated reasons is the same deal. The decided something and then came up with a list supporting it. Rather than the other way around.

While I can understand you (and quite a few others) wanting LL to admit this. Would probably be bad for business for them to do so.

Gaybot has a point: on the strength of that note all that's been banned are promos of ageplay. Is there anything more spedcific out there?

Is the whole session viewable online?

So your saying we should all get together and make the grid even more restrictive then it is now? Possibly ruin it more then it is? Sorry but i refuse to take part in that thank you... Also as i remember correctly Jamey you are a babyfur or at least a very young furry last time i saw you. I think you remember our encounters quite well. I don't like to pass judgment which is why i am going to defend everyones right to be in character as whatever they want in SL. As i stated in previous ageplay topics, "violent video games are the only thing keeping some people from going on a homicidal RL rampage". The internet is also the only place a pedophile can get it out of their system without involving real children. Take away that and you will do more harm then good to the world. Doubt me if you must, but we will see when the damage has been done i guess. :/

Ah, no, I play a _teenager_ to _pre-teen_, most of the time, thank you, sticking to the years of about 11 to 17.

Or, rather, given what Robin told me of her own understanding of the new polices, and, since she's one of the managment team at LL I think I will, I should say I liked to play a character from 11 to 17, but now, given the new polices regarding advertising ageplay and listing your characters age on SL in any public venue, my age is now unlisted and indeterminate on SL, though I am certainly an adult and way over the age of 18.

Not that I have a problem with people who normally play characters younger, or older, than that range, that's just where I usually am.

I had to miss a lot of normality during my teen years, thanks to trauma giving me violent flinches every time someone would touch me from age 11 on.

It wasn't until, I think, 17, that I stopped flinching away from a casual brush in a crowded hall, come to think of it.

And again, since it seems no one ever reads more than one post, and sarcasm and satire so do not translate well at all to a textual environment, it's to prove the point that they _DON'T_ listen to us.

If I have to say it one more time, I swear...

The reason people play games that have iffy subjects is that they desire that iffy thing. Were there no game what else, by definition, is there for them?

The Real World.

Drive people off a game where no one gets harmed and you remove a tool that might be a person's only straw left in their grasp.

Who are you (not you Yiffy Yaffle, you get it), the do gooders, to drive out the weakest most defenseless people of SL onto the street? Where is your compassion?

Explain to me, and not single person seems to be able to, how forcing already broken people further underground helps *anyone*?

Tonight when you fall to your knees and pray to whatever higher power you pray to, remember to say these words:

"Today I let my hatred for people who have nasty desires fill my heart and now feel whole."

/Continues to pray for reason to prevail in the face of heartless and thoughtless people who believe they sit in perceived judgment over the helpless.

Can God really be smiling at you?

For what i know most peoples that bash so hardly on alternative lifestyles have a lack of trust in their own normality, they need to find something to point at to feel they are in the right path.

It is common to try to dis humanize what is different of you, it makes you feel safe and secure knowing that the peoples you are persecuting are of some different, retarded mentally disturbed breed.
And by seeing them like this make it much easier for you to deny em the most basic rights humans have.

So - freedom of speech only applies to those who want to live in an alternative lifestyle but not to those who don't agree with what someone is doing.

Got it.

(Deleted because I WAS missing something *grin*) I really need to wear my glasses when I'm on the forum!)

You're quite right, people shouldn't be pointing fingers at others and saying "YOU, YOU'RE WRONG!" all the time.

If I came off as being like that, with my pardody post, the one that started the whole thing, I do apologize.

I was just very angry that censorship was happening that didn't really harm _anyone_, save, arguably, the _consenting_ adults involved, depending on whether you think it causes psychological damage or not, or furthers it along, and decided to make a post that just hammers it home that the "great and mighty flawless team that keeps bringing us second life" never actually listens to us.(the part in quotes is dripping with sarcasm, note included because sarcasm is hard to translate to text)

Hardly anyone seemed to get it. I'll be adding a header to state it's parody and laced with sarcasm, after this.

Anyhow, I have heard arguments for psychological damage from both sexual and _normal_ completely _non-sexual_ ageplay from various peoples, before. Personally, I'll believe teams of psychologists with nothing to gain or loose over what someone 'just tells me' any day, as anything else would be suspect, especially in a forum so driven by emotion as this one.

Not everyone who ageplays, especially those who are doing it with nothing sexual in mind, are 'damaged'. Am I? If you hadn't read, earlier, I was raped, of course _I'm_ damaged, that never fully goes away.

If I hadn't been, I might have gotten to be in a relationship with someone I knew and cared for, in high school. So much for missed chances.

What do I believe, I suppose, is what I should really say. What I believe is that anyone, mature enough to make the decisions for themselves(counts out loads of 'adults') should be allowed to do what they want, so long as it hurts no one who isn't consenting(so as to include BDSM and massochists) and causes no permanent debilitating physical harm(defined as in disabling injuries, not body modifications), or permanent debilitating emotional harm. Who am I, and who are any of you, to cast 'stones' at people 'we' don't understand? Before arguments start, cases can be made for much of anything to cause emotional harm, even going to church.

Should disenters be hushed? In answer to what you said, Skip Barrett, no, they shouldn't, you can form your own groups of 'I hate this' all you like, as long as you're not trying to push your belief on others. Just like people shouldn't stand on street corners or wander the malls and shopping centers, or airports, and 'fling' the word of 'their god' at all of us passing 'sinners!'. Despite whether we actually happen to be catholic, christian, baptist, buddhist, taoist, satanist, pagan, what have you. My beliefs are just as valid as your own.

Kyrah Abattoir gets 'it'. And quite well. Read her post, if you haven't /13/d7/171001/2.html#post1440515

*pats jamey* we all make mistakes hun* Those of us who realize and correct it, are the strong ones.

---

This paragraph is not defining you, so please don't take offense. It's defining my opinion of specific people.

In sheer honesty a lot of people claim to have been raped in their childhood (might be true, might be a lie), just so they can rationalize the issue and look like their clean. It's been beaten many times on these forums. Now it's almost dead. My opinion is "just because someone was raped as a child doesn't mean they have a louder voice then everyone else". Some people use that as a tool to get what they want, make people feel sorry for them, and make them look like a bleeding heart. You can see it if you search the forums for ageplay topics. :/ Even though it isn't related to ageplay at all. They seam to confuse ageplay with pedophilia as much as people confuse furry for beastiality... Sometimes sick people can play on both sides of the fence.

Didn't know people were claiming such, constantly.

I was only saying it to point out that, since I had been, and most of them probably hadn't been, I should have more of a reaction against ageplay than those who seem to be the ones screaming against it and calling those of us who practice ageplay, at all, in any way shape or form, child molesters for roleplaying with other adults online.

Same class of people who confuse roleplaying a furry for bestiality; ignorant people who don't want to bother hearing or reading about anything dealing with a point of view different from their own.

Well, two more censorship items.

'male reproductive fluids' and any meniton of 'non-consenting sex' are no longer allowable to be said in any 'public' forum, including place listings, personal profiles, and group profiles.

I just hope they don't include those, and the rest to follow, in the same 'priavate land is still public' nonsense that they did for a**play.

It's funny how many people were saying we were wrong and paranoid for saying a**play was just the start.

Oh well.