A real solution to griefers

I dont know if it would work or if it is possible or not but wouldnt it be easy for LL to make it so a non paying toon could not write a script? Something like a software demo that tells you ,you can only do that with the full version. Sure a griefer could write a script with a paying toon and give it to a non paying toon but the paper trail would be there. It wouldnt be as simple as getting banned and just starting a new griefer toon. I was thinking to make it so anything they rezzed would be temp on rez but i dont think that anyone really trying the game out could see what its all about with a temp on rez restriction.

They can, but won't.
Here's why:
There are MANY MANY basic/unverified content creators, both scripted and non scripted. I happen to be a basic and I've done a fair amount of scripted sales.
Two, it creates a class system whereby unverifieds are looked down upon and given lower status in the world--they can't script.
Three, someone who wants to script but doesn't know if they can or not can't dabble without putting in real money first, so they quit. LL loses out as does the community.
Four, it would mean that LL doesn't have to work on fixing LSL such that no script could possibly crash the grid. A like example are old MUCKs where there were two or three levels of scripting, depending on the trust level of the person. The basic level functions couldn't screw with the MUCK, either taking it down, cheating, or corrupting data. Next level up had a little bit more iffy functions that could cause problems if the user didn't know what they were doing, or conversly DID and wanted to dick someone over. Highest level contained functions of admin proportions. Ones that could really mess things up--like toading. Imagine a scrippt that turns every player it detects into a toad (the idea in a MUCK was that a player turned into a toad was no longer an account: permaban).

The problem with doing something like that with SL is that some of the most basic functions are required to be available to all users are the same ones that can cause a lot of trouble, llGiveMoney() for example. As an exercise to the reader, I challenge you to create a greifer object using llGiveMoney().

I dislike it, but it a nessessary evil brought about by open registration (another evil).


So one scammer in the world means that I can't set up a vendor to sell real products?
For every scammer out there using an unverified account, there's at least one unverified doing legitimate work.



Scammers aren't the only non-verifieds. Try the people in Sweeden who's credit cards don't work in the SL verification system.
Or China
GB
Norway
Thailand
Nepal
Egypt
France
And the other 200+ countries that don't have Visa or Master Card.

If you make this "non-verified" not "non-paying" it might be worth considering.
You can't see what the game's all about if you can't script. Scriting is the biggest thing that makes this game different from all other 3d online games.

I understand what you guys are saying but just because you cant write a script doesnt mean you cant use a script. I seriously doubt that everyone in SL can script, I dont think scripting is what the place is all about. It is a huge part of it of course but to try out the game you dont need to script. The credit card thing in other countries would pose a serious problem tho. Oh well i thought it was worth a try.

Then what stops an unverified greifer from using a greifing gun sold by a verified?

It isn't fair, but yes. No Payment Info on file should be restricted from writing scripts or at the very least if they do have scripting then have certain scripting features disabled. (I.E. Push, etc...)

Ten bucks isn't much to pay. I'm sorry for those overseas, I know it sucks. All I can suggest is to gather up and push LL to accept payment that is availible to you.

Although because of some (not all) of the countries listed, it might be highly unlikely as a lot of fraud comes from there. - That unforetunately cannot be controlled by anyone here.

If I couldn't write a script the first day I was there, I wouldn't be in SL today. Period. You might not be interested in that, but the people who *wrote* the scripts you use were. Anything that discourages us from playing is NOT going to improve SL.

That's not going far enough.

You don't need to be able to script to screw up the game for everyone. You can stand there with a configurable particle emitter attachment you bought from Yadni's Junkyard with money you got camping and project tubgirl into my bedroom, and there's NOTHING to tie you back to your first alt.

If you're going to restrict griefer alts properly, then you need to do it by making sure nobody gets into SL without a line connecting them to some real person who takes responsibility for them, either by payment info or sponsorship.

This is a bit unfair isn't it? "Gather up and push LL to accept payment that is available to you" .. Until they do, screw you, you'll just have to live with the HUGE disadvantage of not being able to script? Is that basically what you're saying?

Sorry, I'm all for ways to manage and minimize griefing or other forms of bad behavior in Second Life, but I can't get behind this idea at all. It is at best a "throw the baby out with the bath water" solution, that leaves a very significant number of residents at a grossly unfair disadvantage. As Argent stated differently scripting is the "glue" of second life. Either everyone gets to use it, or nobody gets to use it.

Let's also stop non-paying members from using items too then. That'll stop attacks with cage guns, and particle effect nonsense.

And let's stop them being allowed to talk as well, to put paid to all the spamming.

And then we'll stop them being able to move, so they can't bump into us.

You can't restrict all non-paying members on the actions of some. We were all non-paying members at one point, and argent makes a good point too. You'd dissuade people from joining who actually write the things most people enjoy.

People keep getting a couple terms mixed up here. Unverified account means something quite different from basic free account. I certainly have no problems with basic free account holders being able to do anything and everything a premium account holder is able to in SL. But and unverified account is another story. Unverified accounts can be anyone.........good, bad, or somewhere in between anonomously. Verification (without credit card or PayPal requirements) can be had. Ebay does it. Microsoft does it. And just about any legitimate business that does work using the internet. Every person using SL has an internet service provider. That can be used for verification. The client when downloaded and installed can have an authorization code that is verified each time the user logs in. There are any number of ways we users can be verified..........but it would take LL to make it happen.

It may not solve all the griefers doing there little fun and games........but it would sure hamper them a little. It might even make to possible trace back to them. If an authorization code method is used then the client could be deactivated almost immediately (Microsoft can do that). But the way it is right now.......it's just way too easy for the bad guys. And hard on us good guys. It stirs these conversations about payers vs non payers. And that is not the problem........it's the verified vs the non verified. If someone doesn't want to get verified then I have no desire to have them play the game with me.

Not necessarily an easy task to do, I know........but it can be done. Takes someone wanting to make it happen. Someone in a position to actually make it happen. Someone in Linden Labs.

We know the difference. We are not messed up.

You make it sound so simple. It isn't. Or they'd be doing it.
EBay verifies with financial institution data I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure what you mean by including Microsoft. I use Microsoft products every day, and they don't know me from the pope.


Every person using SL doesn't reside under the same laws governing an ISP's release of customer information to third parties, either. You'll find most ISPs quite opposed to the very idea. And I don't see what an "authorization code" in the client would do in the way of verifying a person's identity.



Great. So the client could be deactivated. What are the steps leading up to that point? There is no "verification process" intrinsic to your idea of some magic authorization code. And you've got your last statement flipped around a bit, since it's not YOUR choice to say whether they play or not.. phrased properly, it should read:

"If someone doesn't want to get verified then I have no desire to play the game with them."

You don't need to be able to script to annoy people. You can use existing scripts. You can use the building tools. You can, in fact, just hover around bumping people and making obscene suggestions, like the last person I recall encountering.

The only thing that stopping unverifieds scripting does is stop unverifieds learning how to script. I was in SL before there were unverified accounts, and there was certainly no shortage of griefers then.

Since you nitpicked my post I guess I should clear up a few things.

I never said nor suggested it was easy.......I said it could be done. Ebay divised a way to verify every account. The did it with enginuity and a great deal of thought and even more hard work. I believe they invented PayPal. Yeah there are holes in it.....but it's a workable way to protect their customers from fraud to harrassment. My mention of Microsoft is that though they may not know you from the pope they sure know your computer...........try installing XP more than three times. You'll find they know quite a bit about you in an indirect way.

Prehaps instead of saying everyone has an ISP to access the internet I should have said everyone accessing the internet has an email address. I chose ISP because many have lots of email addresses............but only one ISP email address. And so you don't find a hole in that too............I'm well aware many ISP's allow more than on email per account (I can have up to 10). And all ten are tied to me.........I'm verified. The intended point was some sort of verification to place an SL account to another account that CAN be traced...........with due process of course.

The mention of a verication code was that you have to identify yourself in some way to get such a code..............such as Microsoft. It's an identification of the machine you are using..........but the machine is yours and it can be identified so you are also identified.

And the final................I didn't know this was an English or grammar class.

Make excuses all you want and punch holes in every suggestion or idea about unverified users of SL..........but remember when anyone can come in and be completely unknowned to Linden Labs...... you, me, Linden Labs and anyone else is at risk. There's no perfect, foolproof way to verify everyone. But without an even mediocre attempt made it borders on stupidity.

My suggestions and thoughts were made in good faith.........take it or leave it. I wish you would have asked for clarifications instead of poking holes in my little ideas. I'm no expert but I do have a lot of common sense. I know when something is not right. I'm not secure in SL the way it is right now.........if you are, then I think you are blind. I'd like to see the unverified accounts problem taken care of. Nothing drastic to limit any honest person from being a resident........paid or not. Just make an attempt to keep the dishonest out.

Sorry, ebay's "verification" system is far from bullet proof. I could set up a throwaway email address and register with bogus information. That would severely inhibit my ability to actually use the service, so I wouldn't gain much by doing it. If I ever intended to buy or sell a product on ebay, then somewhere in the chain of events there are going to be financial transactions and shipping data that would eventually lead back to me. That's where the verification occurs there.. in the transactions.. not in the signup phase. (Unless you're honest at signup, and there is little motivation not to be, given the nature of the service)

With Microsoft products, the entire purpose of product IDs, keys, and activation is to verify the authenticity of the software being used. You can choose to provide personal "identity" related information during the registration process(which is a separate process), or you can decline to register altogether. I have legitimate copies of Microsoft software on 3 different computers here at home, and not once have I ever provided my name, address, email address, telephone number, or any other personally identifiable information to the company. All they know is there are a few copies of Windows, office, and Visio that have been activated against a certain hardware configuration. They might have the IP address the products were activated from, so there's an avenue to my personal information..but that would take a court order.. OTOH I could have just as easily went the telephone activation route with a prepaid cellphone from 7-11. Point is, it's not in any way a process to verify identity of the user, but to verify authenticity of the software.. big huge difference.

I was on the other side of the verified/unverified debate for a short while, until I thought about it, and realized the global implications of it. There is no "one size fits all" solution that can be applied world-wide.. and to attempt to do so would be to the exclusion of far too many "legitimate" players.

It's also been mentioned both by long time residents and Lindens, that the problem of "griefing" existed long before the registration process was loosened. ARs have increased with overall population increase, as would be expected. There's no data to suggest any sustained shift in that proportion when it was opened up.

reference

Actually, no. They bought it.
Wikipedia:
PayPal Corp., as it is known today, is the result of a March 2000 merger between Confinity and X.com.
In October 2002, PayPal became a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay.

The point of this idea is the people who made the existing script would be responcible for that scripts actions you write a script that slams the grid you get banned and you cant simply log on a free alt and do it again 20 min after the grid is back up...and as far as hovering around bumping people that is already against the tos and can be reported but a anti push scripts are everywhere and i dont think the grid will be brought down by mass obscene gestures. This idea was aimed at the people who bring down the grid for EVERYONE not just some child with a cage gun pissing 1 person off.

France isn't in stone age, we have a large array of cards, including visa/mastercards

Yeah, VISA actually started out as a joint thing with banks from the US, Canada, UK and France (where it was Carte Bleue).

There are actually very few countries that don't have access to at least VISA.

But the banks they deal with don't always work with US companies.

Problem.
You make a script and give it to me with full permissions (for whatever reason). I can go in and modify that script TO ANY DEGREE up to including and surpassing the ability to make it a script for a griefer tool.
I then sell this tool by word of mouth and "gift" transactions (that is, I do it "in person" (most likely an alt) and not with a vendor) to newbs.
New now has a griefer tool that all the scripts inside say that Indy Quamar is the creator of the script (and maybe even the prims--or I could use someone else's....) and there's nothing to link it back to me.



My appologies on that point, as I know next to nothing on which contries have what cards, I was just naming some.

LL has said they're going to save the ID that uploaded the compiled version of a script, so they will at least be able to track down who compiled the modified version. Real soon now.

Oh good.