Could Lindens take a peek in here plz!

Ok this might be long.

To start off I had a chat with Andrew yesterday about all of this, so he might bring it up with you guys. And I might repeat stuff in here that has already been said.

Ok here it goes! (this will include lots of ifs and buts)

As you all know we all want SL to be a comunity, I had pictured SL like being cities spaced several sims apart (center to center 1500M apart). With highways conencting them. "But Nexus" you will say "LL can't afford to simply have void SIMS!" so with a little brainstorming with Andrew we came up with this... some what of a big change but we would like to see it in action (try it with like half the sims) someday before GOLD.

1. To have cities we need to have ppl build together.... right!
2. In SL (currently) there is no need to build next to someone.
a) taxes are tooo equal.
b) we can fly and go anywhere with ease... so there is no need for the close aspect.

3. a) To get ppl to build together all the land taxes should be jacked WAY UP! BUT (<-here is the catch) make the neighbour discount something rediculous like 80% so that a noob can afford a plot of land sayd 3x3 the he middle of the city with ease...
b) have the possiblity to rent out your owned space. (ie setting a 3x3x3 (cube) in your super tall building in the city and renting it to a person... Renting would alow the "person renting" to change the decor and put object in the "room" but not change the room.... simply have a space to build in (ie add walls and such, but never deleting the main wall put in by the owner of the as a boundry) This rented land would be taxed to the "owner" and he would charge maybe 105% of the taxes (but since he is getting 80% rebate for being in middle of the city the cost for the "renty"would be 105% of -> 20% (100 - 80)... get it?... And collecting the rent would be just like taxes for the "renty" full auto. (the owner would have a fixed rate or %)

4. Take out flying.... NO flying! ( keep tele but at a cost, like now)(only flying on your own land for the owner only to help build those big skyscapers)
This would
a) make ppl build close togther
b) make the cities develope like real cities (with a downtown (high rises) smaller buildings on the out skirts
c) I played THERE, it's crappy but one of the fun things way to go exploring in the buggy! not simply fly over and poof discover. I had to drive in a little village to check out the spots... and I drove on the coast to check out the beach houses and club houses.. it was lots of fun.

5. To stimulate our dull ECO...
a) we would need a way to get around (ie vehicles)
b) shops in diffrent cities would have their own regulars and their own district (EX: if Val is in my city and some noob opens a shop like Val's but in a different city... I would stay at Val's shop and ppl living in the other city would go to this "noob's shop" instead of driving... for like 5 mins to Vals.
c) maybe make a bought item cheaper to rez then a created one... like 5 $ a prim insted of 10$. So ppl will buy more because the stuff is cheaper... (only make cheap stuff to rez on NOCOPY NOMOD)

6. The aspect of the higher cost BUT bigger discount (land prices) and the no fly aspect would make ppl clutter in city like settings. (what would you buy ... a 3x3 square out of the city for 3000 and taxed 1000 a week? or a 3x3 in the city for 500 and 200 taxes?)

7. Now I know what you are saying... "but Nexus did you ever think of the lag?"
a) Yes we have, Andrew asured me that they have the solutions to kill all relative (from the server) lag (like in simple words... beef up the servers and optimize them in the cities to be able to handle more then 20 ppl)
b) as for the transportation LL has the tech to make cars and all sorts of vehicles.... they just havn't gotten to it yet. And these vehicles would be equal or better then what they have in THERE as the physics and handeling are concerned.

For all this to be possible we would need good vehicles (don't expect for a little while and the servers to be beefed up in the cities... As Andrew put it... optimize the server)

So I simply wanted to get the Lindens with lots of pushing power... *cough* Phil *cough* Haney *cough* Peter *cough* whoever I missed that has the driving of ideas "power" in LL.
If you have any question ask Andrew, he was there! (or you can ask me)

Thx for taking the time to read!

P.S. Little side note... in THERE they have interactive chat... liek if the system detects like "lol"it will put it in a lighter colour (in THERe is's grey instead of black) and auto bind the action to it... no need to fiddle witht he gestures...
EX:
'lol = laugh
''lol = laugh hard
'''lol = roll on the ground

3 degrees of action... would be neat...
they have about 50 pre bound words some with 3 settings each each.

These are interesting ideas.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of flying though. Maybe a better way to do it would be to charge a fee for flying over large distances. The Farer you go the more it cost, something like that.
That way if you are just hopping over to the neighbor it's no big deal, but if you were traveling to the other end of the map it's cheaper to take a car.

I strongly dislike the ideas:
charge for or eliminate flying

I enjoy flying around exploring others creations and meeting new people. Being stuck in one place, or not being visted for for economic reasons would really take away much that SL has to offer.

Not everyone wants to be tied to a town or city. Personally what I want most is freedom and choice.

Damn you guys should read the chat logs at the SL chat...
What we came up with is not the need to limit flying... but the need for and ECO and groups of buildings (ie cities) that would require a limit to flying for them to work . Maybe not stop flying but make it like energy... kinda like health.

Just reading what you wrote.

I also think that that flying should be elinated. Assuming of course that lag can be handled, and that sims can hold 10x or so their current population limit.

Reasons:
- Flying shrinks the world. This is a main reason I see people voting to keep flying, but it is my main reason for not wanting it. When you have to walk somewhere and it takes a while then the world is larger. This means more percieved content with less development time.

- The economy. Transportation would become a need to be filled. Yes you could walk there, but if you want to get there fast you work towards making or buying a vehicle. There would also be the possibility for mass transit projects. Trains or mono rails that could be cheaper than teleporting. No flying also increases the desireability of teleports, which feeds money into the economy.

- The detail of the world. I think too much of the detail of the world is lost when you fly over it.

The world is huge. It should be huge. It should be a pain to get from one side to the other un aided.

just because flying is in the game doesn't mean people wouldn't use cars.....Flying should stay in the game...this is not an exploration type of game but more of a community type of game....I would be real annoyed to have to take a boat from my island to the mainland...then get a car and drive on the predesignated roads just to get to the amphitheater for a half hour event....

This is also not the RW....nor do I think it should be made to emulate the real world....cities don't need to be tightly knit...the store set up in lindenburg is nice...but I always figured that the entire world was one big city....right up to the outlands...I would rather not live in cramped spaces with 15 other people on my "block"....I like the way it is spaced out now...gives everyone the ability to do what they wish....put too many restraints on everyone and it would get less fun.....(Just my opinion)

PS - I would sure as heck drive my dune buggy around rather than fly if I could....but that doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't rather fly....(no reason not to have both

true Val... (come on the Chat) what do you thing oh limited flying time? like health but energy?

Val: Then you teleport or use a jet pack or helecopter. The options are there still. If its not an exploration game, then why fly at all? Why not just teleport?

I do just teleport....but we arent' talkin about me heheh....some people just like to fly....others might wanna make a super man av and fly around...others still might not want to spend money on a jetpack and can't afford it and can't afford to teleport....

but my question still remains....Why Take something out in favor of another...when both options could be there.....Why not allow as Many different possibilities as you can...and let the individual user decide?....isn't that what second life is supposed to be? a place where you can do the things you only dreamed of.

Here's the quote from the Second Life web page:

I see no problem with there being some requirement to make flying possible.

The one thing I think SL really lacks is achievable goals and sub goals. Aside from building something (yes yes that is a big one I know) I wish there were things in the game that you could see or hear about and think "Wow, some day I will be able to have that, see that, do that". I think flying could be one of those things. "Someday I will own a jet pack" "Someday I will have enough money to build the huge building I want" ( <-- notice the clever tie in to another thread about people being able to do anything they want from the start of the game ).

I don't see second life as a goals based game....and I think there are a lot of residents that don't want a goals based system.....they want an open system where they are free to build as they wish...not one that they have to raise money (which is used for building, sounds, textures...) just to buy something that they could have at the very beginning......

those that do want a goals based system could get a jetpack that flies faster than normal flight....If you want that suped up jetpack then it can be there to buy.....

I really enjoy the way second life allows for personal goals and doesn't hinder the user with too many MANDATORY goals

My opinion is that we should have both worlds...this way, *everyone* is happy. I say keep the existing world the way it is now, same rules, flying, the whole bit. When the Lindens are ready to open up more sims, they should make them apart from the existing world..maybe have a bridge that goes from one to the other, or whatever, but have the new world a complete no-fly zone, and have the different tax rules, etc.

This way, everyone can have their cake and eat it too..if you like the way it is now, you can stay put in the "old world." If you want to have a land-based lifestyle, then the "new world" would be for you.

This way, everyone is satisfied, and it would lend a much greater depth to SL overall.

J

WARNING: RAMBLING AHEAD!

Well you made me realize that I disagree with you on the basis for the game.

I think the game needs to be goal oriented. I think there needs to be stuff to work towards. Mini games are nice and fun, but I can go to pop cap or neo pets for mini games. Why should I load up SL? Community is nice and fun, but I havn't been in SL more than a half hour in the last 3 days and I don't feel any less a part of the community - because I am still on the boards and in chat. Yes I can create wonderful things. But I am not a good builder. My artistic talent on a scale of one to 10 lies somewhere around -3. So what purpose does SL have for me? I have been working on scripts, but I program outside of SL. I program while I am in chat and on the boards. I can visit popcap or neopets for a break. Aside from a 3d interface what is SL giving me?

Don't get me wrong, I think SL is great. I mean, this is my 200th post. I just think that goals are needed to turn this from a good 3d environment to a great game. I think there needs to be things that aren't possible as soon as you enter world. Primo sims that you would have to work toward affording. Jet packs, planes, helecopters and other modes of transportation. I would even vote for some sort of stats system, a limitation on how they could be increased, a change to the way damage is dealt (both of the last two should be tied to energy I think, and allow people to purchase more energy for smaller items - very expensively), and more such ideas.

I also don't think anything is mandatory. Just cuz you have to work to fly doesn't mean you have to fly.

A stamina/energy system where flying cost you energy would also be welcome instead of just eliminating flying. Have it set to where you could cross a couple sims or less before running out of energy. Make energy deplete faster over no fly zones, not at all on your own property. Maybe even allow attachments energy to count toward your total energy .... although that is counter realistic. Maybe they would need a script to give you their energy.

one of the things many people like about this is that it's not a game in the conventional sense of the word....it's more of a (like you said) 3d environment....(be careful how ya read this next part.....I'll try to explain how it should be read).....What it comes down to is we all want a perfect game....and perfect for everyone means something different....for some perfect is killin....for some perfect is a goal system....for others....a 3d environment is perfect.....Maybe this "game" isn't for you.....In the long run I know it's not for me either....I need adventure...things like everquest and SWG....this doesn't offer me that....I think the direction the lindens want this game to go involves more of a freeform style of play.....something that involves expressing oneself creatively and not hindering too much with goals....

(yeah that paragraph rambled on heheh sorry)...mainly what I'm trying to say is I agree to a point.....there are things that could make the game more real....but going by what the lindens say they want the game to be, I just don't think taking things out in favor of others is the way to go.....putting as much as you can in.....is

your intitled to ur opinion and im entitled to mine and i think that is the worse idea ive ever heard, yea ok u have some good points but right when u said take out flying i tuned u out sorry bro.
but yea we should build together

OMG

Why in any world would you want to walk when you can fly?


I just dont understand why there is such a demand to limit SL to mimic our daily lives. Cars, cities, goals, work, geesh - <shakes head in unfathomingness>

fen-

100% with Ama about the whole not being in SL

I like this idea.... maybe like a golden Gate bridge... I don't ppl understand the whole no flying thing...

I don't want to take out flying just because... I want a better economie and more of a build together (comunity style) and the thing that is preventing these things is flying! But Like Sean and Fen they are ppl that love flying. We chated about it in the chat and we came up to an enerygy\flying bar.... ie you can only fly 2 sims then you have to reste.

understand that everyone will have a different opinion about what makes a community. your opinion of a community is cities. while i agree with that, not everyone will.

given enough reduction-of-lag and time, large cities WILL appear. Lindenburg was spreading like wildfire until we hit the lag wall. if 10x more people could be on a sim simultaniously and not lag, they _would_. i'm pretty darn sure of it.

i dissagree with many of the ideas in this thread that limit freedom, because to me freedom = fun.

some of the ideas mentioned in this thread can be made in the SL environment. goal oriented games, adventure game, RPG games; they all Can and Will be developed within this environment. when? when someone just steps up and does it. that's what happened with Lindenburg. Wednesday Grimm just started doing it, and then other people joined in.

now i will just restate: given enough reduction-of-lag and time, large cities WILL appear.

bp

Sometimes what the players think they want isn't really what they want. I understand people don't want to limit flying, I understand their reasons for it. I regret that the beta got as far as it did with flying like it is, kinda. Only in the sense that I doubt it will be changed significantly.

Here is an example of what I mean about players and what they really want. I am going to use EQ for my example because I played it for 2.5 years, the longest I ever dedicated to one game. And I have been playing computer games since 1988.

The death penalty. You die (in EQ) and you lose XP, you teleport back to you bind spot (could be very far away for melee types) and you risk losing all your stuff if you can't get back to your corpse. Almost everyone complains about it. The risk involved. The time wasted getting experience back. The horrible mob hunt grind it causes. And I would argue this is the best feature of this game. Why? Because it causes -major- attachment to your character, a -great- sense of achievement for advancement, and -real- fear in dangerous situations. With out this penalty death was meaningless, no fear is caused and attachment to the character is weak. This was proven by quite a few games that came out determined not to make people suffer that way. Almost everyone I talked to who played one of those games became bored, felt no reason to continue playing, after only a couple of months. The excitement, fear, sense of accomplishment and attachment to character weren't there.

That is a long winded paragraph to make this one point: on of the best features of EQ was one of the most despised.

I think the advantages of limiting flying by -far- outweigh the mumbling, grumbling and cursing of beta testers or end users. It will give the economy a need to fill, and thus a necessary boost. It will dramatically increase the perceived size of the world, which means that people will feel they get more for their money. It will increase the desire for cities and denser populations (I will admit that I'm both not sure the desire needs to be greater than it is, or that the servers are ready for it to be greater). And it will add a goal to the game, something to strive for, a reason to stay. The adventerous, computer savy beta users may not need a reason beyond the possibilites, but I think the average end user will.

I like the idea of energy that limits flying distance without resting, but not as much as I like eliminating flying. And for clerification, I do not mean that flying scripts won't work. They need to and should work. I also think a 'run' mode would need to be added that is about twice as fast as walking, and possibly a sprint mode that is twice again as fast but uses stamina/energy.

I totally DISAGREE.

No need to go into why - many have posted their thoughts on flying much better than I could.

I am for it. Will always be for it. And think the game would be the worse without it.

Think what you like, I will how I do - but on this I wont budge.

I'd have to agree with Val. Eliminating or limiting flying is not the answer. For me, and I'm sure a LOT of other users, flying is fun, and it also gives me a sense of freedom. If I couldn't fly, I would end up not exploring as much, and would thereby miss out on some great sights and people.

"So teleport," you say? And how do I teleport to a place I don't yet know exists and without a landmark? Having to walk for 3 hours to get from one end of Norrath to the other, or even the half to one hour it takes to get from Minoc to Jhelom in UO was never fun for me, nor was it very productive. If you'd like to walk from Lusk to Shipley and take in the sights that way, and to feel that the world is bigger, you have the choice to do so. You can even run if you have a jetpack on. (Though, I really WOULD like to see an actual run feature...) Heck, I'm even really hoping for someone to make a working car to ride around in. But personally, I will always prefer flying as my main method of transportation.

I just wanna say that the two games are totally different....in MMORPG's i'm against crossing great distances instantly at no cost.....those worlds need to be big .....that was a big turn off for me in AC2.....when i started eq in beta 3, walking across the world was an adventure.....with this game it would be a chore.....the two games are completely different......

just so you see...I'm not for flying just cuz i'm lazy.....I just don't feel it fits in with this game to take it out...

There, I said it.