Resident Action Committee -- Log, Comments, Addendums

Whew. 3 hours, 45 avs, and 180k worth of text later, I'd say this meeting was a smashing inaugural success.

We had a wide range of avs present (including quite a few non-forum folk, very good), and we hashed out several important issues.

A few things, however.

1) The naysayers are right, a completely equal, democratic approach is entirely flawed and unmanagable. As you read the log you'll see at the beginning there is a major disagreement as to how the meeting should go forward... I eventually had to declare myself "temporary tyrant pro tempore" in order to get the group settled down. After that it was mostly civil. Much better than I anticipated.

2) A queue system seems to work wonders for getting issues discussed, as well as time limits for discussions. I admit I was being fairly arbitrary int he time limits, mostly because the meeting kept going, and going, and going, with folks waiting in the queue.

So as it stands, in future meetings, I'll have the sole discretion of giving or taking the floor away from folks, not as a greedy power grab, but as a way to keep discussion fruitful and engaging.

It worked well, It hink.

I'm working on getting the points down into a more... managable tome. This I will send off to the Lindens, but also post here for further discussion.

I am awaiting on the Lindens to give me a time for them to meet with us. I'll let you know. Expect a mid-week meeting. Dunno if I can attend.

I'd like to schedule another one of these meetings for Sunday, same time, same place.

The dwell (along with $L1000) will be donated to the hurricane katrina fund, as soon as I can find it. If someone knows where it is, IM me. Thanks.


The log is posted below, in plain text. Have fun. "You" is Lordfly Digeridoo.

Let the comments begin!

LF

Just a note, at the end of the log are some comments I made, and I didn't notice at the time, but one letter was cut off the end of one of my pastes. the line should read :

Editorial Hare: My plea is that no matter how hard it gets, the controversy created, stick with it.

Instead of:

Editorial Hare: My plea is that no matter how hard it gets, the controversy created, stick with i

Sorry for the confusion.

(NOTE: This is a 10 part post of the UNCUT transcript, skip to the LAST post on this page in the forum to see summaries)

Lordfly Digeridoo: if i could have everyone's attention for a brief moment or two...

Lordfly Digeridoo: welcome to the first Resident Action Committee meeting.

Lordfly Digeridoo: this is half of a reaction to the other semi-poltiical groups going on in world right now, and a fermenting of my own ideas...

Pendari Lorentz: hey everyone! sorryI'm late!

Pendari Lorentz: *wave*

Lordfly Digeridoo: the rules, and eventual breakdown of the process, is follows:

Drift Monde: hi Pen

Jeffrey Gomez: Technically, you're early Pen.

Lordfly Digeridoo: 1) Everyone will have an equal voice during this discussion. There will be no officers, no official spokesmen, none of that political brouhaha.

Lordfly Digeridoo: from time to time, folks can request a few moments of quasi-silence (like i did) to speak a longer line of unbroken thoughts

Lordfly Digeridoo: i request that you all respect those requests.

Memory Harker: Done & done.

Lordfly Digeridoo: 2) at the conclusion of this meeting (whenever that is), the log will be collected, and posted to 1) the forums, and 2) my website.

Lordfly Digeridoo: 3) the log will be scanned over, and the main points that were brought up will be filtered down into bullet points. These will then be mailed off to Robin and Philip Linden for their readings.

Lordfly Digeridoo: Later in the week, they'll meet with the residents again for another open-ended discussion.

Lordfly Digeridoo: With luck, this process will repeat ad nauseum into infinity, or the heat death of the universe, whichever comes first.

Pendari Lorentz: hey Schwan =)

Lordfly Digeridoo: as for topics to discuss: anything relating to SL as a whole is fair game... be it technical problems that you feel should be addressed, or economic ideas, or social problems, or what have you.

Schwanson Schlegel: hola amigos

Pypo Chung: ello

Lordfly Digeridoo: Finally, I'd like to thank you all for coming, and hope that we will respct each other during this meeting's proceedings.

Pendari Lorentz: hehe

Lordfly Digeridoo: I will now open the floor.

Prokofy Neva: so there is an officer kinda of thingie function that does the scanning and piocks the issues and picks who is in the meeting with Phil? Or?

Blueman Steele raises hand

Pypo Chung: ok then i got something to begin with

Jeffrey Gomez: And as a matter of personal preference, longer thoughts should be notecarded prior to chat for quick reading, please.

Lordfly Digeridoo: i'm the one that'll be doing that, prok. I'm the "secretary", I guess

Pendari Lorentz: thank you Lordfly for setting this in motion

Prokofy Neva: oh so there are officers that's fine then

ReallyRick Metropolitan asks Lord to get him a cup of coffee cream no suger

Lordfly Digeridoo: I'm fairly impartial when it comes to most issues, so you have little chance of me censoring the output

Hiro Pendragon: LF I may suggest a term for secretary, with extremely limited powers.

Lordfly Digeridoo: besides, the logs will be fully public anyway.

Shaun Altman: The secratary? Some may feel that you've appointed yourself "king of residents". How would you respond?

Prokofy Neva: and picking who goes into the meeting with Phil? a secretarial function? or? whoever shows up and flies in?

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: i'd rather not get into politics, if you don't mind... this isn't a political organization, this is equals meeting equals.

Schwanson Schlegel: I should take this moment to mention that I buy sims then

Lordfly Digeridoo: everyone is invited to the Linden-invited discussion.

Schwanson Schlegel: jk

Blueman Steele: if anyone would not mind.. I have someting I would not mind opening fo rdiscussion

Ellie Edo: might i raise an actual issue, currently a hot topic, and one likely to divide us ?

Lordfly Digeridoo: fire at will, ellie.

Pypo Chung: same here

Pendari Lorentz: I'm curious to know what is the number one topic that is on everyone's minds right now.. and if perhaps we could launch a discussion based on it

Hiro Pendragon: LF, I don't think any organization with any title can be legitimate if there isn't an election.

Blueman Steele checks watch to mark start of chaos....

Ellie Edo: its this issue of compensating business people who suffer loss when Sl inovates

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: the only title is "resident". I'm officer by default, but I assure you I'm not going to have any more powers than the rest of you.

Prokofy Neva: I oppose elections Hiro either LF takes the pulse of the nation or he doesn't,it's about trust

Mulch Ennui: sorry im late

Memory Harker just returned from the past where I personally elected LF, thank you, Hiro.

Katt Kongo: I give it to the count of three, Blueman

Ellie Edo: I am strongly against it- many stronglly for it

Ellie Edo: end

Pypo Chung: relax find a seat welecome

Jeffrey Gomez: Ellie, it can be argued that said business people need be careful and diversify.

Hiro Pendragon: LF, you just said you were secretary

Prokofy Neva: yes good topic Ellie and it's about consumer rights protection

Blueman Steele: ok so we haven't had a meeting yet and we are arguing the positions of a group that has not posted a single issue

Ellie Edo: what do ppl dfeel

Prokofy Neva: (Stalin used to be secretary too at the CPSU when he started out)

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: unofficial... I'm the one volunteering to bullet-point the main issaues raised. I imagine everyone else is welcome to do the same, as long as you mail it off to Robin and Philip.

Pendari Lorentz: I am against any officers in this group.. Lordfly needs to be the leader for "tech reasons - ie tools of the client" only.. otherwise.. we need all be equals

Kurshie Muromachi: lol blueman

Pypo Chung: could care less ellie, basic member ehre

Prokofy Neva: tekkie function slike that can get political fast but let's give him the benefit of the doubt

Ellie Edo: as a side isue, there is maybe related pressure NOT to innovate to avoid hurting ppl - bad bad bad

Beau Perkins: I think saying compensation for business is to general a term. I am against it situations like telehubs. I may lean pro in situtations like GOM

Prokofy Neva: no fear of that Ellie

Lordfly Digeridoo: as an aside, the group is open enrollment -- Resident Action Committee

Blueman Steele: IF ANYONE DOESN'T MIND. I HAVE AN ISSUE I'D LIKE TO BRING UP

Prokofy Neva: well Elile has one on the floor do we address that first?

Lora Morgan: I think Blueman raised his hand first

Hiro Pendragon: A meeting without a secretary is chaos.

Cazzj Brearly: Why dont we go around the circle starting with Blueman.

Lordfly Digeridoo: let's try not to step on one another's toes... there's plenty of time to get all issues out there.

Hiro Pendragon: You can't have an unofficial secretary.

Pypo Chung: sadly enuf i agree with hiro

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: why?

Hiro Pendragon: I recommend keeping you for now, LF

Ellie Edo: this is chaos - can i suggest we address an actual issue

Hiro Pendragon: and picking a term

Pendari Lorentz: I like that idea Cazzj =)

Lordfly Digeridoo: that's completely anti-thetical to the point of this group, hiro

Hiro Pendragon: and having the Secretary have 0 power other than to keep order at a meeting.

Beau Perkins: I agree Hiro, we need to have a volenteer to keep order with topics

Hiro Pendragon: It's a matter of responsibility

Pendari Lorentz: lets go in a circle bringing up one issue at a time to discuss

Mulch Ennui: agree hirop

Prokofy Neva: no Ellie isn't not chaos it's just an effort to show that you can't claim secretarial functions aren't officers that's all

Lordfly Digeridoo: i don't want anyone to be able to "keep order" -- that's why I'm not having any current power over the discussion

Nolan Nash: Ellie, I guess we have to establish a beauracracy first before teh translators are activated

Hiro Pendragon: Someone needs to be responsible for making sure logs get posted,

Hiro Pendragon: a place is set for the meeting

Hiro Pendragon: the event is announced

ReallyRick Metropolitan: I have a conch if any any would would find that helpful..It worked in Lord of the Flies

Hiro Pendragon: etc.

Prokofy Neva: WHo broke my glasses???

Ellie Edo: the only reason for this chaos is ppl speaking other than to the issue

Jeffrey Gomez: I would say the core issue is communication, yes.

Pendari Lorentz: Hiro.. Lordfly has taken that job

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: and i am going to fill that role. You can do so as well. We all have the ability to. But seeing as it's my original idea, I'm volunteering to do it.

Hiro Pendragon: LF, you already have power at this meeting.

Lordfly Digeridoo: no i don't

Ellie Edo: wtf have galsses to do with it?

Prokofy Neva: structure of groups tend to generate politics later

Lordfly Digeridoo: I convened it, that's all.

Hiro Pendragon: How then do you decide who does it if more than one want to?

Blueman Steele: *HANGS HEAD IN HANDS

Prokofy Neva: Piggy's glasses got broken in Lord of the Flies?

Katt Kongo: might I suggest that we take turns playing the role of secretary, and let Lordfly lead this meeting?

Nolan Nash: its a Lord of teh Flies reference

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: i don't. Everyone emails off the points to the lindens, then we have rtedundancy. faboo.

Blueman Steele: I so should ahve been more money on the chaos sideo f the pool

Hiro Pendragon: Katt, how do you determind turns?

Pendari Lorentz: I agree Katt!

Cazzj Brearly: I move thet we begin with Blueman's issue, and then move to Kurshie, and around the circle.

Ellie Edo: issue issue issue - its the only way

Corialote Dougall: pardon. Slow loading :/

Hiro Pendragon: LF, that is a clusterf***

Beau Perkins: Prokofy, with no structure it is not productive place

Hiro Pendragon: Lindens are very very specific that they don't like spam like that.

Pendari Lorentz: pfft.. I got a raffle script that would work fine Hiro

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: so are ellections for a non-powerful positions

Hiro Pendragon: Pendari, that's an excellent idea

Katt Kongo: draw numbers, alphabetically, ennie meenie minie mo...

Hiro Pendragon: People can opt out of the raffle?

Pendari Lorentz: Hiro.. the ideas at THIS meeting will be organized and presented in an orderly fashion to the Lindens

Schwanson Schlegel: ORDER!

Lordfly Digeridoo notes -- time of meeting derailment, 5:10 PM...

Pendari Lorentz: lol

Schwanson Schlegel: lol

Pypo Chung: Where's my Buritto! Where's my Buritto? Where's my Buritto-D'OH!

Bruno Buckenburger: I had the over/under on chaos at 5 minutes

Ellie Edo: i am beginning to think none of you want to discuss issues at all. this is frankly pathetic

Prokofy Neva: oh is Schwanson in charge now?

Mulch Ennui: dont blame me LF i tried to warn u

Hiro Pendragon: I would also like to make a request, that by default we run meetings by Robert's Rules of Order.

Blueman Steele: MIYA HEEEE MIYA HOOOOO MIYA HAWWW MIYA HA HAAAA!

Prokofy Neva: no Ellie let's hit it on the telehub compensation issue squarely -- for or against?

Pendari Lorentz: seriously.. I'd love to see a script made where everyone attending can drop in an idea.. and then the raffle draws the subject of the evening =)

Blueman Steele: might as well make it SOUND like the WA too

Nolan Nash: against

Lordfly Digeridoo: against

Cazzj Brearly: Hiro is right. Follow Robert's Rules of Order.

Prokofy Neva: but this ismaybe the wrong group fr that no one probably owns telehubs land ere like you and me do

Pendari Lorentz: if it is a short subject.. we can always draw more

Beau Perkins: Will all topics be voted on to discuss withy the Lindens?

Lordfly Digeridoo: beau: all topics brought up will be sent to the lindens in the email

Hiro Pendragon: This meeting already is simultaneously addressing 3 topics. We do not have order.

Ellie Edo: Don't simplify my issue to nothing -0 it is more gebneral than that - r u here to disrupt. prok?

Prokofy Neva: good point Beau, but it was aslready decided the secretarywill filster

Prokofy Neva: no I'm saying jst get started on discussing it from one end of the stick

Blueman Steele: I'm TPing someon in.. if anyone can summarize what is going on

Prokofy Neva: it's far more general you're right

Pendari Lorentz: I don't see disorder though Hiro

Blueman Steele: I do

Pendari Lorentz: I see an open discussion

Lordfly Digeridoo: this is an open discussion

Jeffrey Gomez: We're discussing how we're going to be discussing what we're supposed to be discussing?

Hiro Pendragon: LF, the problem is that you have presented a set of rules that no one has agreed to.

Mulch Ennui: agree jeffeery

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: well, that's the problem of me being just another resident.

Katt Kongo: may I have the floor for just a minute?

Lordfly Digeridoo: i suggest we let katt speak for a moment.

Hiro Pendragon: Katt, who are you requesting it from?

Prokofy Neva: well LF said there were no officers so we caled him on that in fact there is, there's him as a secretary but now w can move on

Pendari Lorentz: go Katt =)

Beau Perkins: Right, I think we need to get the group and meeting formats agreed on before opening the floor for discussion

Hiro Pendragon: LF, you aren't. you're the secretary.

Blueman Steele wonders how long he can abstain from using the phrase "shut up!"

Cazzj Brearly: good luck getting started.

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: which does wht, exactly?

Ellie Edo: please stop all this disruption and irrelevancy

Hiro Pendragon: I don't know, LF, we should figure that out... orderly.

Pendari Lorentz: Hiro.. if you are a polite person.. who has been in a group discussion.. if someone requests the floor.. they request it from all those attending.. you can choose to say no of course.. that is the point of open discussion =)

Katt Kongo: my suggestion is this: let Lordfly direct the meeting this time, then rotate that responsibilty usu=ing a raffle ball as suggested. Whoever "wins" the role can then lead the discussion

Lordfly Digeridoo: i sit here and talk, just like you. I can send off emails, just like you. Hey, I'm just like you! We're all Secretaries! Would it make you feel better if I renamed everyone "Secretary General Resident Pro Tempore"?

Prokofy Neva: Hiro I for one would like to see Lordfly'd meeing succeed and I actually thought you and he were both on the same page as FIC so? WTF?

Nolan Nash: What we see here is precisely why I do not think these types of non-Linden moderated discussions can be very productive,

Ellie Edo: there should be no polite capologies - just statements on topic - nothing else

Hiro Pendragon: Mark my words, no person running the meeting that is agreed upon by everyone - no order - nothing accomplished.

Blueman Steele counts 10 minutes sinc ehe requested the floor

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok is going to love this one.

Prokofy Neva: can we agree to let LF recognize speakers fro the floor with specific issues in order?

Pendari Lorentz: that is your opinion Hiro =)

Ellie Edo: was that on the compensation topic, hiro?

Pendari Lorentz: and I respect it =)

Prokofy Neva: LF is chair of the meeting recognizing a speakers' list?

Blueman Steele: we are all going to look like idiots in the press

Kurshie Muromachi: *sigh*...

Lordfly Digeridoo: i dunno, prok, are we going to politicize my minor role?

Katt Kongo: I don't see how this group can succeed w/o some order

Mulch Ennui: i sencond proks motion, lordfly recognizes speakers

Memory Harker: YEs! Let's all agree that LF can run this thing! No harm done!

Hiro Pendragon: Prok, there already is a logical discrepancy

Prokofy Neva: Yes we are Lordfly but that's fine, don't be shy

Bruno Buckenburger: YES!!!! Now move on with the meeting. This is a joke to placate someone who obviously wants to nitpick this group into nothingness.

Hiro Pendragon: LF has said we're equal

Ellie Edo: lordfly - you have to get ORDER

Hiro Pendragon: LF has said he's running this

Prokofy Neva: yes I'm bangin on that too but let's have a meeting

Hiro Pendragon: THat's a contradiction.

Lordfly Digeridoo: can I get a minor ability to perhaps maybe steer this open discussion? or do we have to put it all to a vote every 5 minutes?

Blueman Steele: I motion that LF be appointed dictoator fo rthe next 10 min

Mulch Ennui: we agree were equel LF but YOU are in charge

Prokofy Neva: yes let him chair an recognize and use Roberts

Lordfly Digeridoo: fine. Can I take charge then, fellow politburos?

Mulch Ennui: i yield the floor

Memory Harker: Get that hobgoblin out of your little mind, Hiro.

Hiro Pendragon: It's very simple.

Pendari Lorentz: indeed... Katt.. go forward with your discussion.. we each can focus if we so choose =)

Blueman Steele: ok.. a conch.. lets get a chonch for christs sake

Hiro Pendragon: Pick a way for the meeting chair to be chosen each time.

Ellie Edo: does no-one realise how they are humiliating themselves - this is to be posted to forum

Lordfly Digeridoo arghs

Hiro Pendragon: I like the idea of Pendari's - have people submit names and pick one at random

Katt Kongo: I yield to Lordfly

Prokofy Neva: Hiro you want evey SL thing to be hijacke like you did the SLCC? let the peple spea.

Blueman Steele considers postin this now to the forums

Shaun Altman: It's a good thing I'm not running this meeting, I'd be using eject/ban on anyone who can't let the person who has the floor talk.

Ellie Edo: LORDFLY !!!!!!!!

Hiro Pendragon: Prok, I want this to be order - your criticism of previous meeting was the lack thereof.

Katt Kongo: yeild even

Prokofy Neva: hehe Shuan

Mulch Ennui: good idea shaun

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: yes?

Shaun Altman: This rambling is getting rediculous. PICK SOMEONE AND LET THEM TALK!

Pendari Lorentz: all in favor of katt speaking.. say AYE!

Blueman Steele: LF pick someone and let them talk!

Pypo Chung: thank you

Lordfly Digeridoo: katt already spoke... blueman wants to speak as well.

Prokofy Neva: wel lBlue was on deck, te Ellie, then Katt

Ellie Edo: i think you have to say who is t speal lordfly

Bruno Buckenburger: Blueman requested the floor first. Politely, I may add.

Lordfly Digeridoo: katt, if you have nothing else to say currently, please yield to blueman.

Pendari Lorentz: go for it blueman =)

Katt Kongo: I have to you

Memory Harker: Blue! Blue! Blue!

Lordfly Digeridoo: fair enough. fire away, blueman.

Ellie Edo: go bman

Blueman Steele: I wante dto brin gup the disconnection between the voting systme in place and the issues and bugs being delt with

Prokofy Neva: hear hear

Blueman Steele: sorry.. let me turn off my typo filter

Beau Perkins: I have a brief topic I would like to bring up at some point

Prokofy Neva: go Blue

Lordfly Digeridoo: noted, beau, put in the queue

Hiro Pendragon: LF, you are not recognised by the group to give BLueman the floor.

Lordfly Digeridoo: hiro: awesome. guess we have anarchy again.

Schwanson Schlegel: rofl

Memory Harker: Gawd, Hiro, stifle already.

Prokofy Neva: he is HP the ppl voxed

Blueman Steele: we currently have a voting styem that encourages a "priority list" order to solving bugs

Lordfly Digeridoo: however, I suggest we let him talk anyway.

Ellie Edo: omg - a complete change of topic when the one lfly accepted has had no discussion whatever - you will achieve nothing like this

Blueman Steele: at the very top, for example.. is havok 2

Hiro Pendragon: I suggest we spend 2 minutes discussing how to pick a secretary, so we can move on with a semblance of order.

Pendari Lorentz: You know.. Gwyneth holds the thinkers meetings constantly with this type of forum Hiro.. and those meetings are amazing.. the general rule is simple courtesy of others.. it is really not a hard concept =)

Katt Kongo listening to Blueman

Memory Harker listens to Blueman.

Prokofy Neva: no I accept it Ellie it's in the queue

Mulch Ennui: for the sake of progress i vote LF for sec this meeting

Prokofy Neva: DId anybody realize Thinkers d NOT elect their officers?

Nolan Nash listens to Blue

Hiro Pendragon: Pendari, that works when you have a limited group of people that aren't at odds with many controversial subjects.

Blueman Steele: so meanwhile your 10 votes are "locked" into issues that are getting passed over

Lordfly Digeridoo: beau is currently in the queue... as is drift... IM me if you'd like to be put in the queue for discussion

Beau Perkins: Hiro, get in the que and bring up that concern then, let blue speak

Pendari Lorentz: Hiro.. those thinkers meetings grow to this size

Hiro Pendragon: ANd what Prok said - Thinkers chose officers.

Ellie Edo: blue only speak

Hiro Pendragon: THinkers chose their leaders to keep order.

Blueman Steele mutes hiro

Schwanson Schlegel: STFU HIRO

Memory Harker: ty Schwan

Hiro Pendragon: Beau, this was the first thing discussed

Panther Farber: how about we all talk at once and see which ppl can follow a conversation and which ppl cant then we get rid of the ones who cant

Nolan Nash: ofgs

Hiro Pendragon: As per, Beau, it's at the top of the queue.

Kurshie Muromachi: Is it ok to speak about Havok 2 now?

Blueman Steele: so to end my point....

Memory Harker: Yes.

Beau Perkins: Panther I am out already in that case

Ellie Edo: BLUE is speaking isnt he?

Lordfly Digeridoo: blueman has the apparently "unofficial" floor.

Hiro Pendragon: Alright, fair enough. I tried. I'm departing. Have your meeting. Hopefully order can be maintained.

Lordfly Digeridoo: i request that everyone respect it.

Blueman Steele: we are given a voting system which has no connection to what actulaly gets prioritezed as our "votes" are locked into those issues

Bruno Buckenburger: Good, so long! c ya!

Prokofy Neva: only with the sword Mon Ami

Hiro Pendragon: But as the last example saw - 1000 pages in the forum -- that approach did not work.

Prokofy Neva: Live b the Sowrd! Die by the Sword!

Pendari Lorentz: ok.. yes.. anyone that can keep order of those who ask for the floor.. Lordfly is doing well enough too.. I'm now listening to Blue =)

Blueman Steele: so how will we handle 1.7>?

Memory Harker: Blue makes an excellent point, too.

Lordfly Digeridoo: blue: I agree that the current voting system is flawed, indeed mostly ignored

Beau Perkins: Blueman, keep in mind, things like havoc two has a long development cycle

Nolan Nash listens to blue - not ppl with witty commen

Blueman Steele: we have a whole new one that has no connection to the voies we made

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Is it true the only vote adopted was a pony? Do they not even look at the voting system?

Beau Perkins: I agtree with your overall concern, just a bad example

Blueman Steele: yes it is long.. and our vote is locked in

Blueman Steele: we dont' get our votes "back" to apply to other issues

Lora Morgan: really? a whole new vote system?

Nolan Nash: Blue- you can reassign votes, if thats what you mean

Pendari Lorentz: ahh.. the current vote machine.. gadz an excellent topic

Blueman Steele: the idea of "10 votes to spread" is not what I would say... working

Pendari Lorentz: I have no idea why so many votes say they are accepted.. but not in development.. it is wild

Pendari Lorentz: oh yes!! I agree Blue!

Ellie Edo: imho opinion that feature voting system is dead dead dead - a fat toad squatting on our suggestions - kill it - it is illusory

Seldon Metropolitan: the idea might work better if there was ever any turnover of the issues

Lora Morgan: especially with hundreds and hundreds of proposals, most of them variations of each other

Nolan Nash: i agree pen, its confusing

Seldon Metropolitan: and some moderation to merge identical ideas

Ellie Edo: it lets lindens shelter behind it - it is better gone

Pendari Lorentz: yes.. the layout makes it hard to find a vote already in place that is similar to your own

Blueman Steele: I'd like to make sure the issue of whole new features being overshadowed by reqested bug fixes and features be my bullet poitn to submit

Lora Morgan: very

Cocoanut Koala: hi y'all

Kurshie Muromachi: LL states on their voting system that even though we place our votes for what is priority there is no garuntee that it will be followed upon.

Pendari Lorentz: Hey Coco =) /wave

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Its almost like the only reason they have the voting system is so we THINK we have control over anything

Lora Morgan: understandable Kurshie

Memory Harker: Right. But we WANT it to be a priority.

Ellie Edo: exactly, it needs individual topic sections and the vote allocation thing totally revamped

Pendari Lorentz: we are discussing the voting system on the website right now =)

Beau Perkins: I am not tryng to be a Linden lacky here, but knowing the process of fixing software bugs. I tend to give Lindens some rope on this topic

Blueman Steele: with that said I'd like to thank you all for listening and move that we discuss the issue and move on by 5:30

Prokofy Neva: They deliberately create a system that will yield numerous undifferentiaed proposals to keep us off balance.

Lordfly Digeridoo: I think it's mostly a matter of there needs to be a Linden that spends a few hours going over new proposals, and then merging the similar ones, and then going through and knocking down the ones that are unfeasible.

Memory Harker: Lots of rope in the implementation, but what about mere acknowldgement and putting it on some schedule?

Seldon Metropolitan: well, its either deliberate, or its poorly staffed, or some middle ground

Prokofy Neva: could we do that for them? since we as a community made those proposals?

Lordfly Digeridoo: they need to do it all at once to catch up at first, but then it becomes an easier job to do.

Lora Morgan: agreed LF

Nolan Nash: In theory teh voting site is good, but it sems that its simply not being kept updated

Kurshie Muromachi: For example, Blueman mentioned Havok2 as one of the priorties...

Kurshie Muromachi: Havok 2 is in place. But LL will not bring it in until all other bugs have been resolved cause Havok 2 is greatly impacted likely by many features of SL.

Lordfly Digeridoo: (for newcomers: I am technically Tyrant Pro Tempore, if you'd like to be in the official issues queue, send me an IM...)

Jake Reitveld: Agreed. It seems months since anyone has looked at it.

Blueman Steele notes the eeire leaderless order restored since Hiro left

Pendari Lorentz: shhh Blue!

Pendari Lorentz: *wink*

Nolan Nash:

Lordfly Digeridoo: havok2 is a special case, it's the Duke Nukem Forever of SL...

Prokofy Neva: Prokofy notes that this doesn't devalue the problem of claiming to need oficers.

Ellie Edo: it seems we agree already - it is crap. perhaps we need to select someone(s), to draft propsals for change?

Lora Morgan: hehe

Ellie Edo: wot sort of contribution weas that prok?????

Jake Reitveld: (maybe som haker stole the code the havok 2?)

Lordfly Digeridoo: ha

Blueman Steele: is there a reason we can't vote "for against or abstain" on EACH issue of bugs and features?

Lordfly Digeridoo: he roxxored their boxxor

Pendari Lorentz: since this chat will be summarized.. those points can be included =)

Pendari Lorentz: what are suggested improvements from all of you?

Seldon Metropolitan: I honestly think the current system is workable if any attention at all were paid to it

Lora Morgan: needs to be kept clean

Kurshie Muromachi: You may vote but don't count on your voice being heard.

Nolan Nash: well, for me, i think they (LL) needs to keep us more abreast of progress, i mean the Pony thing makes the whole thing look silly, being its teh only thing noted

Ellie Edo: i think seldon is right -0 it could be recovered

Jeffrey Gomez: Done.

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Maybe there should be a time limit. Everyone is given a certain # of votes a month and after 30 days the propsal from them is given an answer

Jeffrey Gomez: Hm...

Lordfly Digeridoo: that sounds good. a forced time limit to make the lindens ACT

Prokofy Neva: They are laughing at us litraly with bread and circuses.

Jeffrey Gomez: (Don't mind me.)

Seldon Metropolitan: wow

Seldon Metropolitan: aimee on my table...its just like that dream

Nolan Nash: time limit works for me

Prokofy Neva: .....

Aimee Weber: lol

Aimee Weber: hi !

Ellie Edo: i dont think we can expect to force action - only they can allocate resources - oerhaps you mean force a decision - like triage

Lordfly Digeridoo: time limit sounds like a good stopgap solution to the problems of the Prop system being ignored

Katt Kongo: Hiya Aimee

Teeny Leviathan: The voting system would work better if we bothered to read what was already proposed, and refrained from redundant or similar proposals.

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Yes force a decision

Beau Perkins: I am not suure what evereyone is approving. You want to force Lindens to add all features voted on, in a timely matter?

Mulch Ennui: hello aimee

Beau Perkins: ^proposing

Aimee Weber: hi mulch hi katt

Prokofy Neva: they need to act on som of them tho Teeny they don't do that at all

Ellie Edo: yes - TRIAGE with a time limit

Lora Morgan: not add, respond to

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Not add a feature just give us an answer

Lordfly Digeridoo: no, beau, we want to force them into some sort of decision, or acknowledgement of the prop

Jake Reitveld: Hi Aimee

Prokofy Neva: no force decision on whether theyare viable is all

Seldon Metropolitan: I mean its perfectly fine if they want to say they cant work on it now or that its not feasible, but they need to say that

Pendari Lorentz: I like that.. a time limit on votes.. though perhaps a new vote being able to be started from scratch after response might be nice too =)

Blueman Steele: it's crazy that just anyting can be proposed at anytime.. with so many similar ones

Memory Harker: And with what do we force them, dear Liza, dear Liza?

Blueman Steele: exactly pendari

Lora Morgan: and it's important to combine features that are similar enough

Beau Perkins: Would you rather LL decline everthing just because it cant be done immedietly?

Lordfly Digeridoo: agreed

Ellie Edo: triage doesnt force you to ACT, only announce how you WILL act

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Exactly some sort of communication that they HEAR us and acknowledge us

Prokofy Neva: It's electronic direct deocracy tho Blue they ant to keep us off balance with al that

Pendari Lorentz: Hey Aimee! =) we are talking about the voting system on the website right now =)

Seldon Metropolitan: yes. it would be better than them ignoring it outright

Beau Perkins: If you force speedy answers, issues will ever be revisitied

Aimee Weber: thanks pen <3

Prokofy Neva: And we're NOT talking about um never mind

Blueman Steele: Beau: I'd reather "can't dos" have to be submitted over and over

Beau Perkins: never

Seldon Metropolitan: I would rather thm deny everything than than not dent anything

Ellie Edo: do you all understand triage - do you use that term ?

Seldon Metropolitan: deny even

Prokofy Neva: we do ellie inthe ER

Beau Perkins: blue, if you force them to say No

Seldon Metropolitan: because at least then we know they look at the page

Prokofy Neva: but is this the ER? no

Prokofy Neva: it's a ame

Nolan Nash: i dont think that they have ulterior motives, to keep us off balance, its just that they arent focusing on it as much as most of us would like

Beau Perkins: it will still be submitted over and over again

Lordfly Digeridoo: not forcing them to say no... forcing them to say something, ANYTHING

Blueman Steele: who says I"m formcing them to do anything

Beau Perkins: can I make a suggestion

Lordfly Digeridoo: please do, beau

Beau Perkins: an idea that I think would be better?

Jake Reitveld: I think some feed back as to which proposals could be viable with revision would be nice to.

Beau Perkins: LL has to reply, but with a priority lever

Teeny Leviathan: Agreed Nolan. I think they started something they can't maintain.

Blueman Steele: I'd liek to hear more on Triage

Beau Perkins: like 1-3

Beau Perkins: 1 is immediate, 2 is 6 moths out

Beau Perkins: 3 is longer

Prokofy Neva: I agre it's not planned but it is designedto serve as a hedge or a buffer between them and us

Prokofy Neva: bullet wounds go before chicken pox

Cocoanut Koala: I love the proposals voting system.

Ellie Edo: but most important is combining and rationalising feature reapeats, reducing all the duplications, and kicking oy the crap early, so the list gets more manageable

Cocoanut Koala: i wish tso had had it.

Prokofy Neva: Shouldresidents do that llie? or Linden>? Because Lindens won't

Beau Perkins: does that make sense what I said?

Lora Morgan: yes, Ellie. That is more important than immediate feedback

Pendari Lorentz: /nod I agree.. something.. anything.. even a "we read this and need to give more thought" would be good.. sometimes not even knowing if they have honestly read something can put a person on pins and needles

Beau Perkins: I think just demanding a Yes or No, would not add value to the system

Ellie Edo: I agree prok - that is what it has become - a buffer - a shield

Prokofy Neva: so maybe we should hvae or own redaction commitee that takes that on

Lordfly Digeridoo: beau: would a "yes, no, maybe, need more info, we'll look into it" suffice better?

Blueman Steele: I think proposeal should requre SOME resident review

Jeffrey Gomez gave you Simple Discussion Queue.

Blueman Steele: ie votes

Lora Morgan: or just "Considering" or "Not Feasible"

Beau Perkins: LF I like they idea of LL setting more of a priority system

Teeny Leviathan: Somewhere in the process, there should be a very visible list of proposals deemed impossible.

Blueman Steele: but not this 10 vites for all

Lora Morgan: keep it simple

Beau Perkins: so we know where they stand on issues

Prokofy Neva: we need to sere up the stuff better so we ould hvae a resident commitee trying to evavulate an dprioritize hese proposals but of course tha would be "un democriatc" hmmm?

Blueman Steele notes 5:30 as "crap loads of ideas flowing freelly with harmony"

Teeny Leviathan: Separate forum category, "Impossible feature proposals".

Ellie Edo: we need resident volunteers able to rationalise the list and make first decision - if the lindens wont - but who would take it on, and technically how?

Blueman Steele: I'd like there to be some review befor eyou can just post "um lik ewe should be able to fly into houses!"

Jake Reitveld: I think echnically how is an easier question than who?

Lora Morgan: I don't know if residents can do it, I think the vote handling needs to be done by LL

Beau Perkins: so for instance, built in AO in the UI comnes up...LL may not be able to do it right now, so they would say "no" but with the system I propose they can say "good idea priority 3" so I know it wont be for a year or so

Lordfly Digeridoo: prop accept/reject should be done by the lindens... no pre-screening, that would be ripe for favoritism

Seldon Metropolitan: agreed LF

Blueman Steele: I see what you mean LD

Nolan Nash: I wouldnt mind an initial review by a Linden, but we may get bricked by that old "staffing" issue

ReallyRick Metropolitan: It seems there has been a massive influx of new liasions, surely one of them can have that added to their workload

Schwanson Schlegel: I am leaving this meeting. Telling someone to STFU is iinappropriate to this type of gathering. I don't want to tarnish your image. TY

Pendari Lorentz: it would be really nice.. if when a single vote were about to be up for approval.. if they put it on the MOTD and perhaps an inworld voting area... to alert people of a "last few days to get your input in"

Beau Perkins: ok LF says my idea is bad. So its a dead issue.

Lordfly Digeridoo: i didn't say that...

Pendari Lorentz: I agree

Blueman Steele: but SOMETHING needs to clean otu the redudant..

Jeffrey Gomez: Pendari: The MOTD raises a valid point. The main issue, really, is communication.

Prokofy Neva: LF, you re goin to screen our opopsls from this group? huh? nothing favouritism about tha mmm? I'm suggesting that we need to dothat with the very plthora of proposals on tha site

Pendari Lorentz: I am about 3 mins behind due to a connection error on my end.. forgive me if I end up confusing *blush*

Blueman Steele: Beaus idea is one idea toward preventing "proprosal rot"

Lordfly Digeridoo: i was merely adding to the discussion, beau

Beau Perkins: LF I asked politely if I can bring something up, and I didnt even get to say my complete though, before people were shooting it down

Beau Perkins: this group is chaos

Prokofy Neva: We need to help process this stuff to help them out, and if omeone doesn't like the editorial reslt they can wikify it hmmm?

Beau Perkins: later

Lordfly Digeridoo: ...

Ellie Edo: ok so is it 1 redesign vote usage, unspecified how, 2 rationalis and combine, if neccessary by resident volunteers 3. triage system - may be 2 stage - residents chuck out crap, lindens allocate to urgency.practicality categories by a certai n date ?

Prokofy Neva: yes Ellie I agree

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Yes

Prokofy Neva: they have the entire list of poropsals as a backup if they think something is missing out of a redaction

Blueman Steele: I think we need to diagnose the why and how of how votes even start

Blueman Steele sings "I'm just a bill"

Bruno Buckenburger: LOL

Corialote Dougall: haha

Jake Reitveld: hehehe

Prokofy Neva: Could I propose that LF you put on our list for th Lindens a question tht says how can WE organize te crap on teh voting site and will you put in the time or shoudl we?

Nolan Nash: Blue - its so wide open, imean we can propose blue cheese instead of french, so this i swhy some screening is necessary

Lordfly Digeridoo: prok: noted

Ellie Edo: blue man! stop it

Blueman Steele: what I do????!

Jake Reitveld: I agree with Nolan.

Jake Reitveld: It way wide open.

Ellie Edo: no singing - issues issues - sing song after

Pendari Lorentz: I agree Jeffery =)

Blueman Steele: exactly Nolan.. but's what's wrong with BLUE cheese. si that a crack?

Nolan Nash: lol

Pendari Lorentz: LOL Blue

Pendari Lorentz: Pardon me a moment.. I have history open.. must put little one down.. enjoying the discussion!! brb! =)

Blueman Steele: that's so colorist of you!

Nolan Nash: must have been subconcious - I am starving

Nolan Nash: *CHOMP

Nolan Nash: *

Ellie Edo: oh dear - we are losing it again

Prokofy Neva: are we on speaker's list LF? or?

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks, let's please try to keep it on track, about the prop system.

Prokofy Neva: is Ellie next or Drift? or?

Ellie Edo: next topic, LF ?

Jake Reitveld: *passes nolan the brie*

Lordfly Digeridoo: unless most folks agree it's time to move to a new topic...

Nolan Nash:

Blueman Steele: next topic? or stay on voting?

ReallyRick Metropolitan: I am fairly new to SL, so can someone tell me if LL has been receptive to things residentshave suggested in thepast?

Lordfly Digeridoo: we have 2 others in the queue

Ellie Edo: rick - does that matter right here right now?

Shaun Altman: The current voting system doesn't work for something like this... did someone suggest some changes to it?

Lordfly Digeridoo: shaun: there was a discussion, yes.

Jake Reitveld: Hi Katy, Hi michelle.

Michelle Moonflower: hi

katykiwi Moonflower: hi jake

Mulch Ennui: shaun: i think that was what has been going on, dont know tho having a rought ime filtering

Lordfly Digeridoo: suggestions were given to either hand part of the process over to residents, or to force the lindens to reply within a timeframe

Shaun Altman: Oh ok

Mulch Ennui: hi katy

Lordfly Digeridoo: those are the two main points i got... apologies if i missed the others

Jeffrey Gomez: Honestly, the real issues with voting are 1) lack of manpower and 2) lack of an automated way to reach quorum.

Seldon Metropolitan: or to ask the lindens to actually look at and moderate the votes

Ellie Edo: i think ppl left behind should wait till the end to be filled in

Jeffrey Gomez: Not sure if it's more difficult than that, really.

Shaun Altman: Well my suggestions aren't really about their feature voting system, I'd like to make some at some point about how to make a process like what THIS group proposes to do more efficient and orderly though.

Bruno Buckenburger: Force the Lindens. If we do it, the whole question of who specifically will filter will come up.

Shaun Altman: (when I can get the floor for some length of time, no rush)

Teeny Leviathan: Good point, Bruno.

Lordfly Digeridoo: good point, bruno

Ellie Edo: omg- can we have one issue at a time plz

Pendari Lorentz: welcome everyone coming in! we are currently discussion the voting system the Lindens use on the website.. =)

Ellie Edo: weve been at this 45 mins and its mostly woffle

Jeffrey Gomez: Shaun: Better communication of features and requests, simply?

Jeffrey Gomez: Yeow. ISP lock.

Blueman Steele: wuffie?

Pendari Lorentz: I'm also about 3 mins behind.. hehe.. so forgive me if the topic has moved to the next discussion =)

Shaun Altman: Jeffrey: and a better way to develop them as well.

Ellie Edo: menaingless words

Nolan Nash: Ellie: better than 45 minarguing about how to elect officers ;P

Shaun Altman: I will make a notecard, actually, so I don't get stomped on in the middle of speaking.

Shaun Altman: gimme about 20 minutes.

Mulch Ennui: 5.5 hours nolan

Ellie Edo: chat history give you it all

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks, if you're in the queue, please notecard your discussion point to minimize intteruptions...

Jeffrey Gomez: Honestly the problem I'm seeing is that we need to go to the Lindens to begin with for features, but that's a more long term issue.

Ellie Edo: do we need to know tthat now, shaun, in the middle of discussion?

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Thats what I asked if LL have been receptive in the past to residents concerns and did something about them.

Shaun Altman: Ellie: do we need to be rude?

Lordfly Digeridoo: for what it's worth, I'd like to give the current topic 5 more minutes, before we move on to the next person, unless the group thinks otherwise...

Bruno Buckenburger: Agreed

Jeffrey Gomez: The real problem here is we have to funnel all of our efforts through a staff of ~50 people.

Mulch Ennui: we ARE at the halfway point in the meeting

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: there is no end point

Memory Harker concurs.

Blueman Steele: Prop: 585 - Increase wave sound volumes, they are too loFeature Detail: The Max volume for create wave sounds in SL is too low. Some you can barely hear. I propose that more input is available so it can at least Equalize with music volume or close to it.

Ellie Edo: it depends, shaun, how long we want this to take, and whether we want any outcomes

Nolan Nash: Agreed Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you suggest we get away from that and move this to something we can maintain?

Nolan Nash: Most of the problems we face currently in SL can be traced directly to LL staff scalability

Jeffrey Gomez: After all, this sort of open discussion is headway in making this owned by us, the residents.

Blueman Steele: Prop: 565 - Voting is a Joke 6 votes/4 voters/no placed Category: miscellaneous Sub: other Added: 2005-08-21 Feature Detail: Let's just get rid of the voting system. We're now reaching 600 props, only 10 or 11 or so have been acted on in any way.

Jeffrey Gomez: Thank you Blueman. We know the system is flawed and has a lot of joke requests.

Cocoanut Koala: i want to keep it.

Jeffrey Gomez: Want a porny?

Mulch Ennui: lol jefferey

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you suggest fixing it, Coco/Blue?

Blueman Steele: porny!!!!!

Curtis Night: If there is 600 request and many bogus, It sounds to me the the problem does not lie with LL

Mulch Ennui: cost lindens to initiate a vote, money sink and weeding out idiocy

Cocoanut Koala: i dont know, but having it at all gives us a good idea what people think and what they want

Lordfly Digeridoo: i'd suggest it does.

Seldon Metropolitan: Im pretty sure i have a vote put towards teh porny

Blueman Steele: the proposals need a life time

Lordfly Digeridoo: the lindens obviously are not looking at the props

Seldon Metropolitan: I think paying to vote in any regards is a terrible idea

Drift Monde: brb

Mulch Ennui: no, paying to propose, not to vote

Jeffrey Gomez: Cost is not a universal panacea. That would make poorer residents (read: basic accountholders) mad.

Nolan Nash: Cutis, agreed, so some think we need a LL screen on them before they are posted - however, that may bring up favortism issues....

Michael Foo: may i have a moment on this topic?

Bruno Buckenburger: Paying to propose is a great idea.

Jeffrey Gomez: Go ahead Michael.

Michael Foo: As I recall the voting system was a resident created application to start with. it seems to me it was adopted by the higher ups at LL, but that doesn't mean that its assigned any real importance by the developers.

Lordfly Digeridoo: michael: please feel free to interject... the time alloted is winding down for this topic

Ellie Edo: no charging - its wrong and unnecesary i think

Blueman Steele marks 5:48 as "first shot fired"

Michael Foo: As it stands a devolper has to agree to take on developing a feature before its accepted., and they aren't doing that. We may be simply chasing after a bad communications channel to even try to move forward with that direction.

Michael Foo: <end>

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you suggest improving the communication channels then?

Blueman Steele: does anyoen feel that proposals need a way to "qualified"

Friend Bailly: dtachable windows!

Blueman Steele: by whom and how?

Ellie Edo: did you get the resident-assisted triage suggestion, micheal?

Friend Bailly: that way we can chat on a seperate window

Nolan Nash: Aye Blue

Prokofy Neva: I thin resident triae should go forward without aking permission, and show some resuls

Michael Foo: Ellie: Yes, and that sounds interesting, but nothing will help if developers ignore the list

Blueman Steele: ok so lets say someone proposes "I wan tthe moon to be green"... serisously. how should ti be handled?

Jeffrey Gomez: The point, I think, is we should be the developers.

Jeffrey Gomez: But we're constrained by a closed system.

Bruno Buckenburger: Someone at LL should look at it and report back that they are not changing the moon to be green.

Michael Foo: Jeffery: i agree

Prokofy Neva: well ignoring a crisply prepared list is harder to do than a morass of repetitive proposals

Lordfly Digeridoo: agreed, bruno

Ellie Edo: blue - junk it at the resident triage stage - no space for political correctness

Ellie Edo: exactly right prok

Blueman Steele: not sure what you mean ellie

Blueman Steele: how do we junk it

Blueman Steele: or di the lindens

Michael Foo: I think the push should be to lobby LL to work faster towards opening the code base

Drift Monde: back

Nolan Nash: wb drift

Katt Kongo: wb Drift

Drift Monde: thank you..

Ellie Edo: they must give one of us edit power - if poss

Michael Foo: allowing us to create the features we want

Lordfly Digeridoo: attn: the time alloted for this topic has expired... get in your final points please.

Mulch Ennui: one of us?

Jeffrey Gomez: Ellie: We need a real API. Not what Pil thinks is an API.

Nolan Nash: Ellie that will never work

Mulch Ennui: what about those of us who are not"one of us?"

Prokofy Neva: I personally can't get behind that

Jeffrey Gomez: The problem is, there's not a lot of security built into the system yet for that.

Blueman Steele: I can't get behind multiple programmers who don't work for the lindens

Prokofy Neva: And you've detemined ath at ...age...what?

Jeffrey Gomez: Phil, above.

Bruno Buckenburger: Good point Mulch

Mulch Ennui: xp bruno, xp

Ellie Edo: i mean to edit the feature voiting list only

Ellie Edo: the triage

Blueman Steele: Ellie.. could you expand on how "junk" proposals coudl be handled and by whom

Lordfly Digeridoo: Folks, we have another topic on the queue waiting to start... I strongly suggest we get that one rolling and roll this one up for the time being.

Mulch Ennui: what has been decided on this topic for presentation to the lindens?

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: I will collect the suggestions and put them in the email

Mulch Ennui: okies

Blueman Steele: the bullet poitn will read " the voting SUKCS"

Jeffrey Gomez: That's easy Blueman. Add a time-to-live for proposals. If they don't get so many votes against the traffic the system sees, drop them from the system.

Lordfly Digeridoo: any further suggestions please IM me so i can include them as footnotes int he email.

Mulch Ennui: i can get behinmd that blue

Nolan Nash: good idea Jeffrey

Lordfly Digeridoo: I move to table this discussion and allow for Drift's issue to be heard.

Bruno Buckenburger: Yes

Seldon Metropolitan: seconded

Drift Monde: Thank you..

Jeffrey Gomez: Sure.

Nolan Nash Listens to Drift

Lordfly Digeridoo: Drift, please go ahead.

Blueman Steele: OK in spirit of moving on I"ll start a thread for those who wish to discuss later

Drift Monde: I would like to see the issues of Permissions fixed that give us Texture creators the same protections as the other content creators..

Drift Monde: and I speak for all Texture Creators..

Lordfly Digeridoo: woah holy crap

Jeffrey Gomez: Heh. Autoreturn.

Lordfly Digeridoo: sorry, super mega auto return violence

Bruno Buckenburger: LOL

Nolan Nash: hehe

Mulch Ennui: was wondering why i was standing

Corialote Dougall: dude

Jeffrey Gomez: Drift: Honestly, the system needs to be scrapped and overhauled.

Nolan Nash: Drift, do you mean enforcement by LL?

Jeffrey Gomez: There are other concerns, especially from people that think we scripters are "out to steal their work." Some are, but most could care less.

Lordfly Digeridoo: the current erm system has been acknowledged as "really broken"

Drift Monde: I know Jeffrey, No Nolan just something that protects our work to.. and dont bring up the dmca cause that is a joke..

Pendari Lorentz: backi.. pardon me.. I'm catching up as you speak =)

Mulch Ennui: i agree with drifts concerns

Ellie Edo: is this the next topic you have chosen, lordfly?

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: yes

Jeffrey Gomez: I don't know what to say there other than a more linux-based perms system, since it IS data.

Jeffrey Gomez: For those not familiar with Linux...

Lordfly Digeridoo: (chairs over there for those displaced.. apologies...)

Jeffrey Gomez: You can set permissions on a sliding scale. Read, Write, Execute, for yourself, for others, and with special properties.

Curtis Night: I'd love to sit but I am lagging so bad I am stuck here

Curtis Night: im comy though, as long as you all dont mind

Mulch Ennui: these chairs are all girly

Jeffrey Gomez: "Copy, Modify, and Trasnfer" historically don't work so well, especially when someone has a UUID.

Mulch Ennui: i cant sit in these poses

Drift Monde: I know that LL knows its a problem.. but after almost 2 years they have done nothing to try to fix it..

Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. no worries Curitis =)

Jeffrey Gomez: Transfer*

Liquid Zidane: lol mulch

Blueman Steele: sorry to just throw this in.. bu thsoudl bug fixes adn features be grouped?

Lordfly Digeridoo: blue: how so?

Jeffrey Gomez: Blueman: No.

Drift Monde: If they want to promote business within SL then I feel that I should be able to protect my work..

Blueman Steele: I mean we have features.. they don't work as documented

Pendari Lorentz: ugh.. no.. bugs and features should be grouped independently.. at least in my opinion

Jeffrey Gomez: They do cross in some respects, but.

Jeffrey Gomez: Most do not.

Ellie Edo: are we back on the voting system suddenly?

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: agreed... the problem, I suspect, though, is the "analog hole"

Pendari Lorentz: /nod Jeffery

Blueman Steele: any coutner points? advantages to grouping them?

Jeffrey Gomez: A bug is defined as a flaw in an existing feature - a "feature" is defined as an addition.

Pendari Lorentz: yes!

Jeffrey Gomez: Some bugs are features, of course. =D

Kurshie Muromachi: Features can be impacted by bugs. Gata iron the bugs our before getting a certain feature in.

Blueman Steele: sorry .. I spoke otu of turn.. but bugs and features should be seprate.. now don't let me derail this train !

Lordfly Digeridoo: blue: this isn't really related to drift's issue... if you'd like to be added to the queue, please IM me

Jeffrey Gomez: Like prim invisibility, ghost avs, etc.

Drift Monde: I'm sure its not a concern for most as there are just a handful of people in the business... I'm sure this is why there is no support..

Mulch Ennui: i support u drift

Jeffrey Gomez: Perms, Drift?

Drift Monde: yes..

Jeffrey Gomez: It's a BIG concern! You kidding me?

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: textures are an interesting market... builders like me buy them, but then need them transferrable...

Mulch Ennui: its a VERY important issue, more important than voting IMHO as it protects creators work

Jeffrey Gomez: You should have seen them kill me over my prim mirror. It strikes a lot of people.

Michael Foo: Permissions in general have issues, Texures are just one component

Drift Monde: Lordfly.. and thats what i wish to have done with mine also..

Jeffrey Gomez: I so agree it needs to be overhauled.

Lordfly Digeridoo: textures also have the problem of being able to be copied, digitally, with "Printscreen" and photoshop.

Mulch Ennui: the flaw is in the transfer. u should hav3e no transfer of the texture itself, not the prim the texture is applied to

Drift Monde: but as you know 90% of my collection is out there for free, passed from one to the other or is being sold by someone else

Liquid Zidane: /ao off

Jeffrey Gomez: LF: Sames with notecards that are "no copy."

Jeffrey Gomez: Same*

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: yes, it is a problem... perhaps a way could be devised to limit the amount of transfers, a degree of separation from the creator?

Mulch Ennui: notecard creators are content creator only by a thin stretch

Ellie Edo: dont we have to accept that textures which go onto flat surfaces are unprotectable?

Drift Monde: No, the suggestion is what was just mentioned.. non transfer unless applied

Lordfly Digeridoo: ie I bought this house from Lordfly, who bought the textures from Drift. I now cannot transfer the textures.

Jeffrey Gomez: Notecards are the only way we're able to write here, Mulch. Writing is by no means negligible content - it's just a woefully underused medium in SL.

Seldon Metropolitan: as a writer, I take a little offense to the notecard remark.

Pendari Lorentz: yes.. honestly.. the permissions system was revamped once... back in the old days.. you could copy anyone's clothing design by downloading their texture.. while fixing that aspect.. other controls were compromised.. a person seriously needs a mulititude

Ellie Edo: but you just snapshot them, surely?

Euterpe Roo: Thank you, Jeffrey.

Mulch Ennui: i agree somewhat jeffery, thats why i said minimal

Pendari Lorentz: of options now.. that could allow them to denote exactly what they wish to allow with their creations

Kurshie Muromachi: Ok, so it needs to be overhauled. Any suggestions on what permissions should be put in place? SO that we could have some suggesitons put in place.

Jeffrey Gomez: The Linux permissions system is a bit confusing compared to our current one, but it's proven to work and is WYSIWYG.

Nolan Nash: Drift, have you spoken to LL about it, and if so, any response?

Drift Monde: not practical with textures..

Mulch Ennui: there are prim texture and prim options to notecards for literary work. admit a no copy function on protected notecards would help, but we are on textures now

Jeffrey Gomez: The problem is we consider assets "tangibles" in Second Life - which is also a feature.

Jeffrey Gomez: Really they're just data.

Drift Monde: I have spoken.. they know its a problem..

Michael Foo: Snap shottign you aren't going to prevent.. but adding an additionalpermission level that allows transfer of a texture only when its used to color a prim would solve most of the issue

Drift Monde: their response is also to file a dmca

Drift Monde: take down request..

Nolan Nash: ahhh

Jeffrey Gomez: Drift, I think that problem is worth addressing in further detail at another time. Try emailing Robin.

Mulch Ennui: that puts the responisblity on u drift where no other content have that responsibility

Mulch Ennui: not fair

Prokofy Neva: isn't tis the kind of issue that is better solved in forums or email to Lindens?

Ellie Edo: if the topic is permissions now - we need a transfer but no sell option for freebeis to stop thes endless moral accusations

Mulch Ennui: no prok this is a residential concern

Lordfly Digeridoo: prok: it's an issue that hasn't really gotten much public attention.

Drift Monde: agree Mulch.. especially when i include a notecard with my policy..

Drift Monde: i have found my work for sale with my name on it.. and requested take down..

Bruno Buckenburger: The issue seems to be slow response/non-response and this is something that should be brought to Phillip's attention

Drift Monde: have to file a dmca request..

Pendari Lorentz: any single thing a person puts out.. should at the very least include such options as.. "copy but no transfer" "transfer but no sell" "Modify but include original texutre (this helps when an original tex was included)" .. The ability for all perms

Jeffrey Gomez: Raising awareness of an issue and pushing an agenda are two different things Mulch, even if they do cross.

Nolan Nash: that could really be said about any issue i suppose...

Liquid Zidane: /ao on

Mulch Ennui: well this was put up by a resident so its fair to say its a concern

Jeffrey Gomez: Like I said, this is a very difficult time, simply because the Lindens are there.

Drift Monde: also, with a dmca request your RL identity is revealed to the other party..

Prokofy Neva: No Nolan not one that is very easily defined and technial like this and impacting certain specific creators but not the whole world

Jake Reitveld: well the IP issues are critical to SL and its development.

Jeffrey Gomez: Ultimately we need solutions so they don't need to be there for us.

Mulch Ennui: ooo drift very good reason not to use that

Pendari Lorentz: but only with "contract with creator"

Prokofy Neva: I'm not sayng don't put it in the list, it seems you're trying to solve it here too and that means we can't get the list filled with the next issues

Drift Monde: in case you were not aware..

Jake Reitveld: Especially resident v resident theft.

Michael Foo: that is a major issue

Jeffrey Gomez: By the way, UUIDs work for textures, sounds, animations, and I believe notecards unless they fixed the latter.

Michael Foo: if you have to give up your RL identiy to fix your copyright issues in world..

Lordfly Digeridoo: notecards have UUIDs too

Jeffrey Gomez: If you have the key, you can pretty much kiss the permissions goodbye with a script. It's a real issue.

Michael Foo: that effects everyone that creates content

Vudu Suavage: *and intends to profit by it

Drift Monde: I thought LL was all for protecting our identity..

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: they are, but they're legally forced to provide ID with the DMCA requests

Mulch Ennui: but u have to give up your identity to protect your textures, a fatal flaw if i saw one

Lordfly Digeridoo: 'tis a federal sticking point to a stupid law

Jeffrey Gomez: Like I said, it's all just data. There's a big discrepancy between the scripters, that need these features for tools, and the content creators, who need their rights protected at all costs.

Jake Reitveld: They are. But where to we register our virtual names and tie them to a legal name.

Jeffrey Gomez: Once again, enforcing "Read", "Write", and "Execute" at the system level would do wonders for it.

Jeffrey Gomez: In my opinion.

Jeffrey Gomez: Because it would let you really and actually lock out others.

Prokofy Neva: that's the crux of it all Jake and not only for creations but all businesses -- is it a game or a platform? avatars or RL names?

Drift Monde: Lordfly.. i could understand that if it was my creation, that was renamed with another creator, but when its in world, with my in world name and i request it removed.. i don't see why I have to involve the RL info.. I do understand the Federal law behind

Drift Monde: the DMCA

Jeffrey Gomez: Or use the data as you see fit.

Jeffrey Gomez: The problem with the DMCA is it falls right back on manpower.

Nolan Nash: I agree prok, and until it goes one way or the other, we are going to be in no mans land

Drift Monde: Wasnt the intent of it anyway

Mulch Ennui: no thats no excuse, they have to have manpower to comply with the law

Jeffrey Gomez: The Linden-to-asset ratio is pretty small.

Jeffrey Gomez: I agree, Mulch.

Jeffrey Gomez: But.

Jeffrey Gomez: Enforcement is a key and difficult issue.

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you find ALL cases of infringement?

Mulch Ennui: they MUST enforce the law or risk the platform if requested

Lordfly Digeridoo: corporate ninjas?

Mulch Ennui: they must file the proper forms to seek enforcement

Jeffrey Gomez: We need tools to take control of this into our own hands.

Jeffrey Gomez: As for stealing textures with a screenshot.

Vudu Suavage seconds ninjas

Jeffrey Gomez: Simple solution.

Mulch Ennui: they are not required to be proactive, but they MUST be reactive

Jeffrey Gomez: Watermark until bought.

Jeffrey Gomez: Not perfect.

Jeffrey Gomez: But historically it works.

Drift Monde: Well, I think if LL is going to promote this platform as a place for RL ventures to earn money then they should better protect the products..

Bruno Buckenburger: They have to make a good faith effort.

Jeffrey Gomez: That raises another issue.

Drift Monde: or I should say give us the tools to protect it..

Pendari Lorentz: to have a better and more optional permissions systems installed in world

Pendari Lorentz: while right now I could see it being a seperate issue between RL and SL Drift.. as the merge between the two becomes more obscure.. I can somewhate understand the Lindens taking their position.. that said.. I think it all the *MORE* reason we need

Jeffrey Gomez: How do people feel that all of our data is simply "rented?"

Jeffrey Gomez: Anyone here besides me ever lose assets?

Lordfly Digeridoo: i don't like that, jeff

Nolan Nash: yes

Bruno Buckenburger: Yes, Jeff

Lordfly Digeridoo: my house designs are my own

Roseann Flora: right Drift but what tools...have any thoughts on that?

Pendari Lorentz: indeed Jeff

Lordfly Digeridoo: i've thankfully never lost any assets that i know of...

Mulch Ennui: the permissions for textures at least MUST be expanded to deal with this

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you feel if we were able to maintain the platform and data on our own machines? That is a necessary evolution for this to work.

Jeffrey Gomez: Like I said Mulch.

Jeffrey Gomez: Read, Write, Execute.

Jeffrey Gomez: System level.

Jake Reitveld: yeah I think the fact that the data sotrage is rented does not matter. A desing is protected even if it is done on boroowed paper, with a borrowed pen.

Mulch Ennui: i follow, i had a linux box and my server is apache

Ellie Edo: do we need to task a subgroupo with drafting some permissions review propsals, and maybe move on?

Jeffrey Gomez:

Bruno Buckenburger: Good idea, Ellie.

Jeffrey Gomez: Honestly, the linux solution might be lower overhead. There's a good chance this IS running on Apache.

Liquid Zidane: i just wanted to let you all know.. that i love you. each and every one of you. except Aimee.

Jeffrey Gomez: In some respects.

Ellie Edo: the ppl who've just ben discussing it?

Drift Monde: Sorry didnt want to take up so much time.. just wanted the issue brought to light again..

Pendari Lorentz: Ack Liquid!

BigJohn Jade: so much love in air hehe

Mulch Ennui: linux is far more efficient and stable, but quite off topic

Jeffrey Gomez: Yeah. Continue.

Bruno Buckenburger: It is an important issue, Drift.

Pendari Lorentz: BJ!! haha *hugs*

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: noted, this discussion has gone off for a bit... shall we give it 5-7 more mins?

Jeffrey Gomez: Whomever has the floor that is.

BigJohn Jade: sup

Mulch Ennui: drift, i have a feeling this is a procrastination issue from LL, since texture people are very few, they feel they can put it off as it would require a major overhaul to permissions

Ellie Edo: any non-technical non detail permissions points?

Mulch Ennui: i dont think we, a larger group, should allow that

Jeffrey Gomez: Mulch: Indeed.

Roseann Flora: right Mulch my thinking also

Drift Monde: Well, i know what the problems are from my side.. A group consisting of all creators of content, scripter, textures, clothiers should get together so we can review and come up with ideas on a fix..

Jeffrey Gomez: Yes Ellie. They should just freaking work.

Mulch Ennui: even tho we only have 1 texture person at this group, the concept effects us all

Lordfly Digeridoo: agreed

Ellie Edo: my only concern is freebis distribution and quashing the moral outrage by adding a no sell permission

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift is my only supply of textures

Pendari Lorentz: I agree mulch.. I think permissions as a whole need a SERIOUS overview.. and as they stand now.. they most hurt the texture providers.. and then bump bump down the line.. if that makes sense

Jeffrey Gomez: Not so fast. I make my own content besides scripts.

Prokofy Neva: Drift would be it be more promising to come to the Lindens with a group like that behind your back already organized and already n otecarded and distliled before putting it on this meetings' agenda?

Jeffrey Gomez: I know this issue is pretty close to heart.

Mulch Ennui: this meeting is open to all ideas prok, and LL continues to sweep this particular thing under the rug

Jeffrey Gomez: The other half of that is breeding a society where theft is frowned upon.

Jeffrey Gomez: And Mulch, hate to say this, but.

Jeffrey Gomez: Batman avatar...

Prokofy Neva: AFK

Nolan Nash:

Jeffrey Gomez: *hint*

Mulch Ennui: check my logo =)

Drift Monde: Well i was going to try to get a group together for anyone interested just to discuss permissions which does affect everyone

Mulch Ennui: hint

Jeffrey Gomez: Hahaha

Blueman Steele quietly deletes his sponge bob av

Jeffrey Gomez: That's great.

Jeffrey Gomez: But it raises my point anyway.

Mulch Ennui: who says the MJL has no sens e of humor

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: a good idea

Jeffrey Gomez: Theft as a necessity needs to be frowned upon. I blame the internet for this, actually.

Lordfly Digeridoo: nevertheless, the next person in the queue is AFK for a bit, so the discussion should continue until he's back.

Jeffrey Gomez: The whole Peer to Peer wild west scenario.

Mulch Ennui: i agree jeffery, let me turn off my kazaa lite real quick

Jeffrey Gomez:

Blueman Steele quickly shits off his Nuttella client

Jeffrey Gomez: People need to know that they will get caught and people will be mad as hell when they find out.

Pendari Lorentz: there needs to be additional options.. keep what we have.. but add more

Pendari Lorentz: I think the permissions issue is a huge thing.. it affects anyone who actually creates anyting in this world

Katt Kongo: Blue..... lol

Jeffrey Gomez: But right now the system does make it hard for that to be accurate.

Jeffrey Gomez: As would an open system.

Lordfly Digeridoo: permissions is broken, yes

Drift Monde: If anyone would like to form a sub group for discussion here i'd be happy to contribute what i know and have been through for the last almost 2 years..

Mulch Ennui: i agree pendari thats why we need to lobby for textures specifically bc of implications

Jeffrey Gomez: But Google tells all. :}

Mulch Ennui: its a symptom of a greater flaw in permissions

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: if i may,I suggest you send off a supplemental email to Robin/Phil about your issues...

Lordfly Digeridoo: let them know personally

Roseann Flora: I came here late but if theres a group for this I would like to join..this is a good idea and I think it will help LL get the ball rolling

Jeffrey Gomez: And a mindset propagated by peer to peer.*

Memory Harker passes around her recipe for baklava. Don't worry: it's open code.

Lordfly Digeridoo: it is a big issue affecting content creators

Mulch Ennui: wait LF, we didnt vote on wether the group should represent that, not fair

Kurshie Muromachi: One of those things you have to sit down and flowchart it out, review and re-review. Along with considering the opinions form the community with a discussion in regards to it as drift suggested. I like that idea.

Drift Monde: i have sent a 3 page letter to Philip

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: IM me on that.

Mulch Ennui: i , as a resident, request this be put up for consideration in our agenda

Drift Monde: i have sent several actually..

Bruno Buckenburger: We should have a sub group of creators meet and dicsuss the options and bring their findings to the group at large to present our bullet points to Phillip

Lordfly Digeridoo: it's going in the bullet points regardless if people want it or not... it's been discussed at length, with several solutions

Drift Monde: i agre Bruno cause it is a huge area of discussion

Drift Monde: but i will require people with more of an insight of what a fix is than i can provide..

Bruno Buckenburger: Yes, LL is well aware of Drift's concerns but they need to be packaged into a set of suggestions and concerns that this entire group shares

Jeffrey Gomez: As long as this whole transcript is posted without bias.

Jeffrey Gomez: Someone grab Ulrika's post colorizer or something.

Jeffrey Gomez: EH, this means you.

Blueman Steele: can we rip otu the first 10 min right up thte "where' smy burrito?"

Bruno Buckenburger: LMAO

Nolan Nash: heheh blue

Drift Monde: I'll return the floor to LF.. and thanks for listening..

Jeffrey Gomez: The emphasis on certain issues in the transcript is nice, but it skews things to high hell. We need an impartial transcript.

Lordfly Digeridoo: drift: the next person in the queue is still AFK... i motion that the discussion continue until he returns

Pendari Lorentz: my feeling is that.. from our summary points of this eve... after the meeting next week with Phil.. if he understands the ideas behind the various issues mainly raised.. that .. at that point would be a great time for sub groups to start up that may want

Jeffrey Gomez: Beyond that, bullets in a separate post are fine IMO.

Katt Kongo plans on putting the WHOLE transcript on the Messenger's site.

Drift Monde: ok.. well i can do a little soft shoe if that works? :=)

Pendari Lorentz: to approach him (outside this main group) with specific individual issues

Lordfly Digeridoo: brb, my bladder is full of labatt's

Blueman Steele: can we skip and go back to the afk'er/

Jeffrey Gomez: Open question: How do people feel about communication in Second Life?

Bruno Buckenburger: Good idea

Mulch Ennui: does anyone think the permission sytem is fine as is? speak now

Jeffrey Gomez: Or... whomever is next, if (s)he's here.

Mulch Ennui: i put in a topic but i will wait for LF to return

Bruno Buckenburger: WHo is next to speak after the AFK'er

Lordfly Digeridoo: aah, relief

Jeffrey Gomez: Likely me, if LF's "three in the queue" was accurate.

Jeffrey Gomez: Heh.

Mulch Ennui: i make 4

Lordfly Digeridoo: if I may say something...

Jeffrey Gomez: Let's ask then.

Mulch Ennui: so go jeff, i gotta ldrain my main vein as well,

Drift Monde: And i apologize for having to leave shortly but I have an event to host in 30 minutes..

Lordfly Digeridoo: one second...

Jeffrey Gomez: Go ahead LF.

Pendari Lorentz: *hugs* Drift

Pendari Lorentz: yes Lordfly.. go ahead =)

Lordfly Digeridoo: /m,e hates the camera

Jeffrey Gomez: Good luck with that, Drift.

Drift Monde: *hugs Pendari..

Pendari Lorentz: lol

Lordfly Digeridoo: okay...

Drift Monde: thanks..

Lordfly Digeridoo: the next person up is prok, but he's AFK for about 5 more mins, and he suggested i put his agenda (in the blue box) up in his absence...

Jeffrey Gomez: (Lucky us.)

Ellie Edo: did my "compensation culture ever make the list, LF, or was that triaged out?

Lordfly Digeridoo: so here comes two paragraphs of copy/paste... bear with me

Mulch Ennui: lmao

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: i didn't get any IMs for a queue, many apologies... please IM

Pendari Lorentz: hehe

Lordfly Digeridoo: the following lines are now prok's:

Jeffrey Gomez: *dons tinfoil hat*

Mulch Ennui: LF now starring as Prok, i love it

Pendari Lorentz: LOL

Lordfly Digeridoo: In our last meetingwith the Lindens, we asked for and obtained an agreement to get a code of conduct from them -- extracts from their own employee manual -- which I suspect is deficient precisely in the area of how to minimize conflict of interest ....

Blueman Steele: Prok part in this episode played by LF

Lordfly Digeridoo: on matters like endorsemnt of resident businesses, participation of resident events, giving bids to residents from banks on secret sims and all the rest. But let's take them on good faith.

Lordfly Digeridoo: We do eed to get this andI do hope you will as for folloow up in your meeting withPhil.

Lordfly Digeridoo: When we can stablish what thir rules are for engagement, we can undersstand better how to next address the problem of their ruination of resident business as happened with GOM because we'd learn whether...

Lordfly Digeridoo: it is ok to have side secret negotations with any resident business with an aim to takeit over or give stock options or whether that is a conflict of interest.

Lordfly Digeridoo: </end>

Jeffrey Gomez: Actually, grapevine says they're going to post that in Waterhead for all to see.

Jeffrey Gomez: The policies, that is.

Teeny Leviathan: That was short.

Mulch Ennui: MJW reborn!

Jeffrey Gomez: *gag*

Nolan Nash: so, we reserve judgement until we see the documant?

Bruno Buckenburger: Yes

Jeffrey Gomez: Politics: The other white meat.

Roseann Flora: lol

Jeffrey Gomez: Nolan: Sounds about right.

Lordfly Digeridoo: let's give this issue a fair shake, please...

Katt Kongo: Taste like chicken

Vudu Suavage: I say that, since they're giving an inch, we take a mile

Jeffrey Gomez: Because you know the forums will slice it up enough for us anyway.

Nolan Nash: yep

Mulch Ennui: conflict of interest is important. while i consider the Jeska thing minor and the GOM thing major, it is still important to anyone who contributes in world nonetheless that they have guidelines to eliminate potention COI

Jeffrey Gomez: Eh. Honestly.

Jake Reitveld: You mean there is controverys on the foums?

Nolan Nash: none at all

Jeffrey Gomez: Screw favoritism, with a capital "S."

Corialote Dougall snorts

Jeffrey Gomez: We need to find a way to get LL out of the middle of these arguments.

Cocoanut Koala: Wht is your position on it then, Jeffrey?

Jeffrey Gomez: Favoritism?

Cocoanut Koala: yes

Mulch Ennui: conflict of interest

Jeffrey Gomez: That it's a transient issue.

Mulch Ennui: better term

Jeffrey Gomez: If SL survives.

Cocoanut Koala: transient?

Jeffrey Gomez: But that everyone loves drama.

Cocoanut Koala: How is it transient?

Ellie Edo: i think this may relate to the demand for a "compoensation culture" wehich os my topic in the list, may i speak on it now?

Bruno Buckenburger: It is an ethical issue. This group needs to decide how involved we want to be in policing ethics.

Cocoanut Koala: Well, I agree, these techie topics about Linux and all are far more boring,

Jeffrey Gomez: Because, if I read what's "supposed" to happen with SL properly, an open world means LL will no longer own it.

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: Let us discuss prok's points first...

Cocoanut Koala: but it doesn't mean the COI type issues aren't important.

Mulch Ennui: ok, for example, if playstation 5 is coming out but only 1 company is given access to special code, that presents a conflict of interest from sony

BigJohn Jade: linux been pain in the ass been mess with my servers for last week

Jeffrey Gomez: But this is down the road one, two, five plus years I think.

Jeffrey Gomez: For now favoritism IS an issue.

Ellie Edo: sorry i thought hem mentioned GOM "theft"

Lordfly Digeridoo: he did... i think

Mulch Ennui: if sony owns that company, or that company represents sony

Ellie Edo: so its the same topic

Aimee Weber: hrmmm...

Cocoanut Koala: I guess I don't understand you, Jefrrey.

Pendari Lorentz: I think this is a good topic.. though I reserve my opinions till I hear others.. for now.. hehe =)

Aimee Weber: How is it a conflict of interest for someone to acquire a business from someone?

Lordfly Digeridoo: so please tie it in witht he discussion, ellie.

Aimee Weber: And offer them MONEY for it.

Mulch Ennui: if that bizness is given an edge on competition it is aimee

Jeffrey Gomez: Coco, Second Life is a platform. It is not There, nor is it TSO.

Jake Reitveld: Oddly enough I think the GOM coupd have out competed LL for business.

Bruno Buckenburger: The analogy wasn't a good one.

Drift Monde: /sorry to have to run.. thanks everyone.. good discussion.. keep it going..

Lordfly Digeridoo: someone offered KErmitt money for Tringo... was that a conflict of interest?

Mulch Ennui: prolly not a good analogy

Cocoanut Koala: Jeffrey, why don't you tell me something tht i don't already know you think?

Ellie Edo: ok - compensation culture - GOM want it for loss of exchange rate revenue, telehub owners may for p2p killing land value - barons may if tier discount is reduced as threatened. Much howling in the forums. I would like to express support, as residents....

Katt Kongo: G'night Drift

Nolan Nash: bye Drift

Jeffrey Gomez: For it to be an open platform, as is the internet, there must be no governing body other than the standards.

BigJohn Jade: got something to do everyone have nice night

Mulch Ennui: later drift

Pendari Lorentz: little hint.. I personally think it is wonderful the Lindens get down and dirty with us in this world.. It helps show me this is a world and not a game.. how many games you play where the creator will actually hang out and play a game of chess with you..

Cocoanut Koala: However there is now, Jeffrey.

Mulch Ennui: none pendari and I praise Philip all over SL for that

Euterpe Roo: I agree with Pendari.

Cocoanut Koala: Given that there is a governing body, shouldn't there be reasonable ways to apply for things?

Jeffrey Gomez: Do you see people campaigning to the W3C these days? You see issues with Sony versus Microsoft and their DVD choices...

Mulch Ennui: but philip asked, so we have taken the time to answer

Pendari Lorentz: or want to get in on your radio show.. you take the lindens out of our world as people.. and you make them have to take a role beyond the gods

Lordfly Digeridoo: Jeffrey has a point... the Lindens will, long-term step back from stewarding this world wholesale, and give it to us.

Cocoanut Koala: Rather than them just getting handed out.

Ellie Edo: ..for LL's refusal to knuckle under, and to affirm that risk is risk, and must be faced by each business, which cannoot expect to stifle developments of value to us all

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa, government systems inevitably fail.

Cocoanut Koala: Right now, though, they are not stepping back and

Cocoanut Koala: givcing it to us,

Lordfly Digeridoo: they will eventually.

Cocoanut Koala: they are giving it only to certain people.

Lordfly Digeridoo: they want us to do as much as possible now.

Cocoanut Koala: I don't live in the eventually.

Mulch Ennui: not gods Pen, reps of the company WHILE IN UNIFORM. have an alt to play here and help friends

Cocoanut Koala: I am talking about the now.

Jeffrey Gomez: What keeps those governments alive are the people in office, not the system itself, sadly.

Cocoanut Koala: And for the now, this is a problem.

Jeffrey Gomez: And that's exactly the rub.

Cocoanut Koala: So what would you do about it, Jeffrey?

Jeffrey Gomez: The internet works.

Jeffrey Gomez: Why?

Teeny Leviathan: We aren't ready for it.

Blueman Steele: When I worked for a burger place I was not allowed to kiss my fiancee

Jeffrey Gomez: I would solve it by making this OUR platform.

Blueman Steele: while I was in uniform

Jeffrey Gomez: By making it OUR data.

Ellie Edo: in other words - business risk is business risk - no moanu=ing - no compensation

Mulch Ennui: someone with the last name of linden should be here on official capacity only, have an ALT to have recreation or a bizness here

Cocoanut Koala: They won't give it to us now, Jeffrey.

Blueman Steele: because it did not mesh with what the burger place represetned

Cocoanut Koala: But they AREpassing around bits of it to people.

Lordfly Digeridoo: burger place = teh seks

Jeffrey Gomez: So if LL disappeared or San Francisco were destroyed tomorrow, we could continue.

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa, that is not the feeling I get.

Mulch Ennui: not atm jeffrey

Jeffrey Gomez: It's the feeling I get from the forums.

Cocoanut Koala: I have yet to get your position on this issue as raised by Prok.

Jeffrey Gomez: But not in general.

Lordfly Digeridoo: if LLabs goes under, I'm 80% sure they'll give us the tools they have, open source, as a last ditch attempt...

Jeffrey Gomez: And this raises the communication issue, again.

Mulch Ennui: ur prolly right LF

Jeffrey Gomez: They need to effectively communicate their intent to us, the residents.

Mulch Ennui: but thats neither her nor there

Blueman Steele: we'll all just meet in habbo hotel

Jeffrey Gomez: And that intent needs to be for this to be open.

Jeffrey Gomez: Or Second Life will fail.

Memory Harker: LOlL BLue! No!

Jeffrey Gomez: Statement of fact.

Cocoanut Koala: Well, that has nothing to do with Prok's thing to discuss.

Bruno Buckenburger: That is fact? How is the stock market going to do next week?

Cocoanut Koala: In practical terms.

Mulch Ennui: a cop is not allowed to let his friends break the law, thats all prok wants for thos in lindens avatars

Ellie Edo: their accountants will sell all rights to the highest bidder - and it cd be a competitir who wants us dead - we cant let them go under

Jeffrey Gomez: You can discuss what the Lindens say they're doing 'til the cows come home, Second Life will either work, or it will not.

Pendari Lorentz: have less right to speak to them.. but if the Lindens make themselves as us.. like they always have.. then more are more comfortable approaching them

Mulch Ennui: the issue is conflict of interest

Cocoanut Koala: These are some very interesting thoughts, but they have nothing to do with the point Prok brought up.

Jeffrey Gomez: We have to make it work, as a body of residents. And that means all of us, including everyone NOT in attendance.

Mulch Ennui: LF please keep on topic

Pendari Lorentz: I don't agree Mulch.. I think the main thing that will keep most residents comfortable approaching the Lindens.. is if the Lindens make themselves *approachable* as Lindens.. in other words.. if they are untouchable as lindens.. people will think they

Ellie Edo: what is the issue - individul linden misbehaviour - wot r we discussing

Lordfly Digeridoo: sorry, was getting pizza...

Nolan Nash: would be nice if prok would speak for himself

Blueman Steele: can someone give a solid exaple of COI in SL?

Cocoanut Koala: The Lindens CAN be approachable, with still being fair.

Jeffrey Gomez: This hinges on the game concept.

Ellie Edo: we the hell have we chosen to discuss a pt from someone absent?

Cocoanut Koala: Right now, they have been approachable, but also not fair.

Lordfly Digeridoo: i think the problem here is that the lindens are probably the most approachable internet/entertainment company ever....

Mulch Ennui: do u want to see my 600 prims of linden bears pend? that IS a good thing but... i will need to be uninterupted before i can continue

Jeffrey Gomez: Second Life is not a game.

Jeffrey Gomez: End of discussion.

Jeffrey Gomez: It can be played as a game.

Lordfly Digeridoo: it's a thingie.

Jeffrey Gomez: It is what it is to the resident.

Blueman Steele: how DARE the lindens be so apprachable!

Cocoanut Koala: Who mentioned game?

Cocoanut Koala: The Lindens CAN be approachable and ALSO fair.

Memory Harker: No, who's on first, CoCo...

Jeffrey Gomez: It's an issue, Cocoa.

Nolan Nash: yes, Jeff, but some insist it is, and as long as we have such diametrically opposed views, nothing can be solved along those lines

Jeffrey Gomez: Excuse me. My cat is currently messing with my mouse.

Ellie Edo: no theres a good big issue - should this group say SL is not a game, or remain ambivalent?

Pendari Lorentz: haha.. I just have to say I love all of ya'll here.. this is an amazing discussion.. you guys rock! =)

Cocoanut Koala: I don't believe that issue has anything to do with Prok's point up for discussion here.

Memory Harker seconds Pendari.

Jeffrey Gomez: I am going to say this.

Blueman Steele: this

Lordfly Digeridoo: this group has no agenda, it's semi-official body (me and my hat) merely report what you guys are thinking and saying.

Katt Kongo: I think we need to ask LL to establish how Lindens can be approachable, w/o showing favortism

Mulch Ennui: ok, if IGE was tipped off prior to LLs announcement about the currency exchange, they would have inside information that would allow them to make bizness decisions based on insider knowledge. there is a risk of a LL employee sharing internal discussions

Jeffrey Gomez: Any resident that cares about Second Life will take the time to make their opinions heard.

Mulch Ennui: with a few selct friends

Mulch Ennui: theis is a major problem

Jeffrey Gomez: The ways to do that are as follows.

Jeffrey Gomez: 1) Post to the forums.

Cocoanut Koala: The fact they approached GOM only, is ALREADY favoritism.

Jeffrey Gomez: 2) Email Lindens.

Ellie Edo: yes coco i agree

Mulch Ennui: agreed coco

Jeffrey Gomez: 3) Attempt to talk with them directly.

Michael Foo: do you know they only approached GOM?

Mulch Ennui: no

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa, the point of the matter is as long as PEOPLE are in control, there will be favoritism.

Mulch Ennui: but they used GOMS model so no one else is relavent

Jeffrey Gomez: Which is why we need to push, hard, to get away from having LL at the center of it all.

Michael Foo: thats untrue

Jeffrey Gomez: To own our own data.

Lordfly Digeridoo: jeff: in due time

Mulch Ennui: who else uses a trade model michael?

Mulch Ennui: a p2p model

Jeffrey Gomez: LL owns this world.

Blueman Steele: excuse me .. but I think we can't ignore that we are "sitting" ehre thanks to the lindens.... we want more "INPUT" but LL owns this

Jeffrey Gomez: While that is the case, we will have this issue.

Michael Foo: they aren't using GOMs model. and tons of markets use a market model

Ellie Edo: i believe we need to get control , or at least knowledge , of who they significantly talk to or not, and about roughgly what. Thats why a proposed an organised lobbying system

Cocoanut Koala: Jeffrey, the point of the matter is as long as therep

Mulch Ennui: if the rest of the world did not exsist Michael it would be GOMs model

Lordfly Digeridoo: attn: I understand we haven't reached a quorum, but there are others in the queue... 5 mins to wrap up this part of the discussion

Ellie Edo: there is no theft from GOM, any business takes risk - no moaning - no compensation

Michael Foo: thats a pretty huge leap

Mulch Ennui: GOM proved the success of the model, they were invested

Michael Foo: the world does exist

Mulch Ennui: who else proved the model to work in SL?

Jeffrey Gomez: This is becoming hard. My cat wants attention.

Michael Foo: and no one owns the idea of a market

Mulch Ennui: LL didnt

Michael Foo: i addition LL model as explained by Phillip is not the same as GOM's

Blueman Steele: I just want lindens to keep us more "in the loop" I dn't like this idea of being open.. I don't want to own SL..

Jeffrey Gomez: Basically, the statement that "This is our world" is a sham.

Prokofy Neva: back

Nolan Nash: I would suggest waiting for the doc, then revisiting the issue in a future meet

Ellie Edo: ll must reserve the right to extend sl capabilities in any way they judge best for them and us

Mulch Ennui: bout time prok

Jeffrey Gomez: But eventually, if we push hard, it might just be.

Prokofy Neva: Yes Jeffrey and we need to make them accountable for that shm

Jeffrey Gomez: The ideas are ours.

Mulch Ennui: ur agenda has been up for 15 mins

Ellie Edo: if a business is hurt - its tough - thats business risk

Bruno Buckenburger: And hopefully over in 5.

Jeffrey Gomez: But the data is still in their system.

Blueman Steele: "my world" means I can build and script... not that I have "rights"

Jeffrey Gomez: Which is the problem.

Mulch Ennui: blue, they GIVE you rights

Prokofy Neva: justice not rights

Prokofy Neva: that's how to frame it at first

Mulch Ennui: IP rights are a feature of the platform'

Teeny Leviathan: Our "rights" are the ones LL gives us. It is that simple.

Ellie Edo: this is not a matter of justice

Blueman Steele: yes they give us rights.. but I don't like the idea of SL as a coutnry or government

Katt Kongo: but why bother to create a successful business, when LL (who has an unfair advantage) might decide to compete against you?

Mulch Ennui: the IP rights sold me on SL above all else

Blueman Steele: i'ts a platform at best

Prokofy Neva: When you put it in ters like "no justice no peace" then it is

Ellie Edo: all business is at risk of huge powerful competition at any moment

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, would you like LL to be sued and go under?

Nolan Nash: dont rights have to be in place before justice can be effected?

Jeffrey Gomez: LL is accountable for just one thing - being understaffed against how many of us there are :}

Mulch Ennui: no one wants that jeff

Ellie Edo: it should contingency plan and diversify

Lordfly Digeridoo: katt: to play devil's advocate, though.. they WERE offered compensation

Prokofy Neva: That is specious Jeffrey, you raise that as a chimera to silence dissent about the very point you raise on false advertising of "your world"

Ellie Edo: they wer elucky

Mulch Ennui: true LF, LL knew they were co opting a model that GOM pioneered for virtual currency

Katt Kongo: but LL is not just another business... I could compete against you, for example.. that's a level playing field

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: indeed, so they did a "good thing" by offering them compensation.

Jeffrey Gomez: I'm not even going to touch that statement, Prok. :}

Lordfly Digeridoo: they could have easily said "yoink!" and took it anyway.

Prokofy Neva: we can't know the terms of that compensation which is why I call for them to have a code of ethics and rules of engagement for when they do that

Jeffrey Gomez: Continue discussion.

Prokofy Neva: don't Jeffrey because it's pretty basic

Mulch Ennui: unless the compensation was merely a token. they didnt agree to a purchase,. they strong armed them "accept or we do it anyway"

Prokofy Neva: buy-out stock options should be equal for all\

Ellie Edo: rather than discuss the issue itself - am i at least right in saying that this compensation cultur thing is a hot topic we need a unified front on?

Bruno Buckenburger: Yes you are Ellie

Mulch Ennui: thats what MJW was before everyone attacked it

Prokofy Neva: yes Ellie it's the top to put in their list and sub-divide it into sub-topics

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, I will not be baited at the expense of this discussion, Please raise a good point against mine, should you have it.

Prokofy Neva: no MJW will still focus on this pretty exclusively if this group will become the tekkie wiki lobby on other issues

Lordfly Digeridoo: if i may say something... this group will not present a unified front against anything... it's a discussion group.

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, MJW is for all intents and purposes dead.

Ellie Edo: it may be what seo=parates us, and decides what group we join - one such at least

Mulch Ennui: then what is the point of a meeting with the lindens?

Blueman Steele: to discuss

Prokofy Neva: I did Jeffrey, your hoisting this flag of them being sued and going on is just scare tactics, they are not in danger of being sued over a game with

Prokofy Neva: TOS that gives them every out in the book, so don't raise those fake scare tactcs

Jeffrey Gomez: Well, how would you like to hold them accountable without that threat?

Jeffrey Gomez: People are scared.

Blueman Steele: OMG he called it a game

Prokofy Neva: I'm not scared

Jeffrey Gomez: People do stupid things.

Prokofy Neva: um I mean a socializing monetarized platform thingie?

Prokofy Neva: please

Ellie Edo: hmmm - so if we find big splits and disagreements - that flags it as atopic we avoid raising then - thats the other approach

Blueman Steele: the SMPT

Ellie Edo: yes?

Jeffrey Gomez: I mean opening the platform to the way the internet is and continues to exist.

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie

Prokofy Neva: it's not an option -- is GOM suing them from Canada...erm under what law.. in California...come on

Lordfly Digeridoo: no

Jeffrey Gomez: To some that means open source.

Lordfly Digeridoo: it's a point brought up with the assumption, indeed, the implication, that there is going to be a dissenting voice, vocal or not.

Jeffrey Gomez: To others it means bringing the internet into the world.

Jeffrey Gomez: To me it means giving us a damned API.

Blueman Steele cries.. look all I want is for joints to work

Lordfly Digeridoo: 2 minute warning... please wrap it up for the next person in the queue

Bruno Buckenburger: Yay!

Prokofy Neva: Don't need a damned API Jeff that's your issue, we need just a rule of law first on what they've already put out here on this platform thingie

Ellie Edo: this is a big toplevel question - do we deal with soplit topics by remaining silent on them - is that the best strategy?

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: i'm going to IM you

Jeffrey Gomez: Sure. I suppose a bearaucracy is the universal panacea.

Ellie Edo: ie things we internally strongly disagree abot?

Blueman Steele: it's ok for us to be split.. tis is a discusson.. not a front

Jeffrey Gomez: Blueman: Damned straight.

Bruno Buckenburger: So we can confuse Phillip by picking any topic and showing him how we disagree?

Lordfly Digeridoo: i'm going to outline all opinions

Lordfly Digeridoo: int he email

Jeffrey Gomez: We can give him things to think about, Bruno.

Blueman Steele: that si more usefuall than you think

Lordfly Digeridoo: but with that... Time Is Up.

Mulch Ennui: well that is a point to be made why specific lobbys for specific agendas are ok, not everyone will agree with everything

Bruno Buckenburger: OK, that's great.

Jeffrey Gomez: (Insert forum hysteria here)

Lordfly Digeridoo: Next person in the queue is...

Lordfly Digeridoo: Jeffrey. Go ahead please, Jeff.

Jeffrey Gomez: Well, my question is pretty simple.

Euterpe Roo: "Things to think about" are often more effective imputus to motion than a list of demands.

Jeffrey Gomez: How do people feel about communication in Second Life, in general?

Prokofy Neva: (Jeffrey this is why inworld discussions are better because no one has called anyone a douchebag yet or put tinfoil dog pictures out)

Blueman Steele: mmmmmm imputus

Mulch Ennui: communication amonst who

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok: Point!

Blueman Steele: technical communcation or idea flow'?

Katt Kongo: communication with other residents?

Jeffrey Gomez: For example, the events browser.

Nolan Nash: thename calling has certainly gone both directions

Prokofy Neva: Wait that's a topic all it's own and we have got others in the queue

Mulch Ennui: for the record i wore a superhero outfit

Lordfly Digeridoo: i'm all for any possible extension and possibility of communications.

Jeffrey Gomez: The fact we're forced down certain venues that are underwatched and don't necessarily work.

Mulch Ennui: sorry, didnt use tinfoil

Aimee Weber: lol mulch

Jeffrey Gomez: The fact the MOTD works better than the damned forums for communication.

Blueman Steele: MOTD?

Lordfly Digeridoo: message of day

Mulch Ennui: ty blue was afraid to ask

Jeffrey Gomez: Just, how do you feel about the systems we use to talk to residents and the Lindens?

Mulch Ennui: o

Jeffrey Gomez: Can they be better?

Jeffrey Gomez: The forums certainly could be.

Lordfly Digeridoo: they can always be better.

Blueman Steele: heck It hnk we can improve the chat styem we use this moment

Mulch Ennui: sure and philip has agreed to organized semi formal discussion among IMs and inworld chat and hotline

Lordfly Digeridoo: (sorry, getting really bad packetloss)

Pendari Lorentz: back.. sorry!

Frans Charming: Groups communications could be beter

Mulch Ennui: its a step in the right direction IMHO

Katt Kongo: as a member of the press, I am dismayed at how hard it is to communicate with specific Lindens

Lordfly Digeridoo: what would be interesting are dedicated in-world chat channels... for groups or maybe Sims

Jeffrey Gomez: How would you improve the chat interface, especially for those here expressly for it?

Mulch Ennui: staffing issue LF

Prokofy Neva: yes fix group tools so proposlas/vote isn't the only way to send out a message and get rid of officer recall that freezes groups

Ellie Edo: i dont know if this is relevant, but intra-group everyon seems to have forgotten the specils group forums 0-- nearly derelict, but dont we ourselves need one?

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: nonsense, IRC is mostly unstaffed, yet has millions of channels

Jeffrey Gomez: Add a tool that sends chat to a messenger? Integrate it to IRC?

Nolan Nash: I agre Katt, i havent been getting responses in teh past few months at all

Mulch Ennui: proks right, group tools suck as bad as land tools

Jeffrey Gomez: They do.

Lordfly Digeridoo: also, separate IM protocol for outside-of-SL communication

Prokofy Neva: It's not the chat interface, it's the chat in-your-face where people won't shut up so the scroll goes by too fast

Jeffrey Gomez: Even older MMOGs that are horrible have better chat systems.

Mulch Ennui: lf, irc is not an OFFICIAL channel

Nolan Nash: group tools should be a top priority

Jeffrey Gomez: Err...

Lordfly Digeridoo: GAIM + SL IM protocol = mmmmm

Jeffrey Gomez: Group systems*

Blueman Steele: this comes full circle to feature voting

Pendari Lorentz: yes.. I agree.. the group and even estate tools need more attention..

Jeffrey Gomez: LF: For the win!

Prokofy Neva: yes Jeffrey TSO was so much nicer and human because you could type in clean paragraphs insteasd of these choppy sentences

Katt Kongo: It's difficult to have an accurate accounting when you basically get silence

Prokofy Neva: and people had different colors as a norm in their chat type

Blueman Steele: frankly the preview do not have a good link to what we need.. it's about "will my prodcuts I made still work" while we accept the new features .... communcations ties with this

Jeffrey Gomez: Actually Prok, I agree on the point that we should be able to list residents in a sim in a portion of the browser.

Katt Kongo: ty Prok

Jeffrey Gomez: Even if I never played TSO, I heard that brought up by someone.

Jeffrey Gomez: I forget who.

Prokofy Neva: not in a sim on a lot

Lordfly Digeridoo: how could we better communicate with each other and the lindens?

Jeffrey Gomez: That would work better, Prok.

Mulch Ennui: maybe, since this group wants to speak for the people, this groups SPECIFIC agenda could be to make a functional voting system (which I might add i mentioned to philip directly and he responded sounds good, sketch out a plan)

Prokofy Neva: well I am concerned about their notion of a webpage that will have only 15 distilled proposals on it frankly

Memory Harker thinks THIS isn't doing too badly, LF.

Prokofy Neva: they are cooking ideas like that up and I find that horribly fraught with problems

Ellie Edo: with each other, here tonight - via a groupforum

Prokofy Neva: they already have a bad voting page and they'll graft on to that a worse proposal-making page for lobbies to put out proposals

Prokofy Neva: any one can edit anyone else's proposal like a wiki and destroy the integrity of a proposal for example

Prokofy Neva: this is what electronic IM democracy gets you

Pendari Lorentz: I did not think this group wanted to "speak for the people" .. rather.. this group was to be a way for the people to speak, Mulch.. to me there is a big difference =)

Prokofy Neva: so we need to get in on that very early and really critique

Jeffrey Gomez: Wikis are a tough subject.

Nolan Nash: I agree Pen

Jeffrey Gomez: Know why they tend to work, Prok? Just in general, not in context.

Mulch Ennui: i say an in world vvoting sim, a requirement (petition) for getting something put to vote, and a forum to discusscampaign and debate. then go to in world polls and vote. and LL must agree to act on it

Prokofy Neva: they don't Jeffrey read my blog but that's a nother topic

Prokofy Neva: Mulch do you realize what a recipe for Bolshevism that is? whoever codes that wins

Lordfly Digeridoo: i disagree on that last point

Prokofy Neva: whoever sets it up wins

Jeffrey Gomez: Is because they build on a social climate that doesn't stand for disinformation.

Prokofy Neva: it's utter bullshit

Lordfly Digeridoo: what if the petition voted on and overwhelmingly approved is "give us all free money"

Jeffrey Gomez: That's why Wikipedia is one of the best resources on the 'net.

Prokofy Neva: um yeah

Mulch Ennui: prok we all know ur opposition

Prokofy Neva: No it i s NOT Jeff

Prokofy Neva: NO WAY

Pendari Lorentz: LOL

Lordfly Digeridoo: techi wiki

Jeffrey Gomez: o.0

Prokofy Neva: Mulch it is n ot just me, it is you are arrogating to yourself an idea that isn't reflective of the community

Blueman Steele: oh I liek free money. yes I vote for that

Mulch Ennui: LF, they do give us free money

Ellie Edo: a few dozen voting boooths round the world - public ones and paid ones for market resaerch etc

Jeffrey Gomez: Anyway, that's a tangent issue.

Prokofy Neva: it's just your notion and has only a minority of supoprt, you put it out in the meeting with Phil without our backing whatsoever

Lordfly Digeridoo: mulch: i mean "give us 40 billion lindens a week at least"

Ellie Edo: you vote - youe get $5

Jeffrey Gomez: Oh boy. "Developer incentives."

Lordfly Digeridoo: do we really want that "acted upon"?

Memory Harker: "Our"? *I* back Jeffrey.

Nolan Nash: minority? Where is your majority?

Mulch Ennui: if they did that everything would cost 20 million, easy fix

Jeffrey Gomez: Me, I am so against any and all fake incentives.

Pendari Lorentz: I love the idea of the voting page being included in world Ellie.. for every idea =)

Cocoanut Koala: all I can do is crash!

Jeffrey Gomez: Philip does so love his "economy" though.

Prokofy Neva: In our meeting with Phil a group worked out talking points and agreed to stick to them Nolan

Prokofy Neva: and Mulch broke that

Lordfly Digeridoo: i would like to see the telehubs used as communication tools...

Prokofy Neva: so that's why we're concnered how Lordfly will distill and represent these issues here

Lordfly Digeridoo: signs showing upcoming townhalls, announcements, etc.

Jeffrey Gomez: I would like to see the telehubs be optional.

Mulch Ennui: i dont like to talk at, i like a dialog prok, unlike u

Prokofy Neva: that breaks down easily in the meeting when people start talking and scrolling just what they feel ike

Prokofy Neva: you did

Prokofy Neva: we did not

Jeffrey Gomez: I tire of porting into a huge clusterfuck of advertising smut when I don't want to.

Prokofy Neva: We did not propose a sims government Mulch

Nolan Nash: well, i see them as some suggestions, not representation

Pendari Lorentz: I think that would be a great replacement idea for them Lordfly.. it would give them future meaning.. while not taking away from other future ideas =)

Prokofy Neva: it was not in the talking points there or here as far as I know

Jeffrey Gomez: On the flipside, that goes leaps and bounds toward exposure.....

Jeffrey Gomez: But.

Mulch Ennui: he asked us to speak for everyone (before he backtracked), i gave my suggestion on how to do that siunce a group couldnt possibly do that

Kurshie Muromachi: Philip greeted a newcomer in the WA one day. The guy had no idea what was going on and you see that alot from other new folks. There is a lack of communication and direction...

Mulch Ennui: dialog

Prokofy Neva: It does not speak for everyone to create chaos of numerous poroposals

Ellie Edo: yes - telehubs as voting booths, market resaerch allowable - voter being paid by resercher

Jeffrey Gomez: For people like me, I would pay, L$100 a port, to avoid a freaking telehub.

Prokofy Neva: and then have one tekkie pick out what they like and mak e 15

Jeffrey Gomez: And not to a resident, neither.

Jeffrey Gomez: Not this ROAM stuff.

Prokofy Neva: look at what just happened to the discussion Ellie and I just added to on how to redact the existing web page

Jeffrey Gomez: System level.

Kurshie Muromachi: They setup InfoNet stations to assist in this and took em down in like a few days. So there is something being done there I suppose.

Prokofy Neva: no one agrees even that is legitimate to clean uop the mess there

Prokofy Neva: so you are going to have the same issue with thousands of ideas issued inworld that will be half junk and half golden or whatever

Pendari Lorentz: Yes.Ellie.. I personally love that idea =)

Jeffrey Gomez: Kurshie, Infonet is an interesting issue.

Prokofy Neva: who gets to redact?

Prokofy Neva: how?

Jeffrey Gomez: I've spoken both with Squagmire and Robin on that.

Prokofy Neva: some script will do this? how?

Jeffrey Gomez: Infonet is a lesson in a difficult trade.

Ellie Edo: redact?

Prokofy Neva: Infonet is just a glorified notecard at the end of the day, alas

Prokofy Neva: Edit

Prokofy Neva: Distill

Mulch Ennui: god u hate scripters as much as the FIC hates u prok

Jeffrey Gomez: Because it builds on an asset server that people fear can lose data.

Ellie Edo: ah

Prokofy Neva: I hate people who arrogate editorial functions under the guise of tekkie functions sure

Lordfly Digeridoo: people, please, try to be civil...

Prokofy Neva: sure do

Blueman Steele: and to that I say SL is gloriffed 3D chat

Ellie Edo: is this triage again? im confused

Bruno Buckenburger: Hate? That's harsh

Mulch Ennui: is despise better?

Jeffrey Gomez: I suppose I must be a pompous asshole then. Any objections?

Prokofy Neva: well he's putting that word in my mouth and I'm replying duh

Bruno Buckenburger: Uh huh

Prokofy Neva: sustained counselor

Nolan Nash: sigh

Jeffrey Gomez: Anywho.

Ellie Edo: please guys - sty civil - no personalities

Jeffrey Gomez: The communication channels need improvement.

Blueman Steele: I think your words are that the Info net is a notecard distriputer.. so is the internet

Jeffrey Gomez: InfoNet is an attempt in that direction, and I really wish Squagmire were here to discuss this.

Jeffrey Gomez: But ultimately, it builds on a system that is in a state of major flux.

Prokofy Neva: Who here has it and uses it? I do all the time -- and it's a glorified notecard giver -- it's great, but it is that

Blueman Steele: I speak directly for Squag when I say "do you want grape or orange:

Lordfly Digeridoo: i've seen one kiosk, but couldn't figure out how to use it

Jeffrey Gomez: Hahaha, Blueman.

Ellie Edo: is it - topic communication - subtopic feature voting abgsin, or general voting on wide issues?

Prokofy Neva: do you realize that he has an army of kids at $80/piece work doing cut and paste of the Herald into it on cards? not even with some kind of XML thingie

Pendari Lorentz: so I guess the gist of this is that we agree it is a good thing for the Lindens to clarify how they are wiling to communitate with groups and individuals in world? and to relook at their voting system as it seems that more vote than

Mulch Ennui is clueless

Jeffrey Gomez: Seriously though, it's a step in the right direction.

Pendari Lorentz: we have Lindens that "appear" to listen?

Jeffrey Gomez: But not there yet.

Jeffrey Gomez: Pendari, they do listen. Some would say too much.

Prokofy Neva: Infonet is not there yet but it is important to support and use

Jeffrey Gomez: When we mob them, they freak out and listen, sure.

Mulch Ennui: lmao jeffery

Prokofy Neva: DO realize that it infvolves redacting and filtering and deciding who is cleared content and lots of donkey work

Jeffrey Gomez: See the "vote on bug fixes" snafu?

Prokofy Neva: We didnt mob them Jeff, we asked for a meeting with 10 stakeholders, as much as you laugh at the term

Cocoanut Koala: They listen as much as is humanly possible for them to, and listen more than any other game/platform/okra people I've ever found

Pendari Lorentz: hehe.. Jeffrey.. I agree they listen.. that doesn't exuce the fact that we have a whole segment of residents who do not realize this

Prokofy Neva: you have stakeholders here in the room to, to use them

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, this has nothing to do with sides of beef.

Bruno Buckenburger: LMAO

Prokofy Neva: It has to do with our beefs.

Jeffrey Gomez: This is a completely different issue.

Blueman Steele: what's your beef with them Jeff?

Mulch Ennui: and speaking of modding, look at what happens in 5 1/2 hours ill never get back to see the results of mobbing

Prokofy Neva: And we had the stakes to back our beefs

Jeffrey Gomez: Actually, more to them listening TOO MUCH to the forums.

Cocoanut Koala: lol prok

Mulch Ennui: mobbing*

Mulch Ennui groans at proks pun

Prokofy Neva: oh sluniverse.com isn't worth the power to blow it Mulch just ignore it

Cocoanut Koala: They listen to every outlet they have for input

Jeffrey Gomez: As developer, it puts you in a horrible position of taking opinions with a grain of salt. As a game dev, Jr., I know.

Ellie Edo: if we think they dont listen why are we here. i hope to god they dont listen to this confused cacophony

Prokofy Neva: game dev junior lol

Prokofy Neva: is that a title ?

Lordfly Digeridoo: 5 minute warning for next (and final) issue...

Jeffrey Gomez: Because, I hate to say this, but not all residents are interested or care about what they're asking.

Cocoanut Koala: what issue was this?

Pendari Lorentz: the forums are open to all though Jeff.. just because many choose not to use them.. can you blame the Lindens for using them as a way to get an open input from others?

Cocoanut Koala: i was crashed

Lordfly Digeridoo: coco: communication in SL

Prokofy Neva: this last one was conflict of interest and business destruction and ethics

Cocoanut Koala: exactly, Pendari

Prokofy Neva: click on my theses here and we'll have a trranscript here later too you can follow

Ellie Edo: what issue are we discussing - PLEASE?

Jeffrey Gomez: Pendari, that's true. But it's only 10% of residents.

Jeffrey Gomez: Ellie: Communication.

Cocoanut Koala: so what?

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: We are discussing, broadly, communication in SL

Pendari Lorentz: we are discussiing Communication with the Lindens ellie

Prokofy Neva: yes then it morphed to that

Jeffrey Gomez: That "so what" is a problem.

Mulch Ennui: ONLY 10% OF RESIDENTS? wasnt the idea to speak for all?

Cocoanut Koala: lots of residents wouldn't give feeback if you paid them

Cocoanut Koala: No

Prokofy Neva: they do get it is a problem and to their credit that's why they made SLTV

Jeffrey Gomez: Because people react: "Well, I never heard that!"

Cocoanut Koala: you don't need 100% of everybody to respond or else you're paralyzed

Jeffrey Gomez: The MOTD, on the other hand, 100% see.

Mulch Ennui is playing ddevils advocate

Cocoanut Koala: you listen to the people who talk.

Jeffrey Gomez: Which raises an interesting question.

Ellie Edo: issue is too wide - needs breaking into communication types

Cocoanut Koala: And they do listen.

Jeffrey Gomez: How do you make sure all residents, or at least a large sum, see the relevant issues?

Jeffrey Gomez: BEFORE they happen.

Prokofy Neva: I'd really like to understand what Philip means in his post when he says he has a way already to get EVERYONE's opinion short of his saving all the chat logs and searching them for terms like GOM

Cocoanut Koala: Not sure I know what you mean, before they happen?

Jeffrey Gomez: I know people on the forums were all freaked out because they learned the MJW thing after the fact.

Bruno Buckenburger: The question is what is relevant to people?

Jeffrey Gomez: And the result was a landslide of asshattery on both sides.

Bruno Buckenburger: It differs

Cocoanut Koala: Well, that is not a major thing FOR them to tell people.

Cocoanut Koala: I thought you meant stuff like cutting stpidends

Mulch Ennui: MOTD has to be acknowledged to move forward,. like accepting end user agreements before installing software, i beleive thats jefferys ppoint

Jeffrey Gomez: (Both sides being MJW people and the opposition)

Nolan Nash: Ask Philip

Prokofy Neva: Do you know how hard it is to make a group and accomplish something Jeffrey? without angry forum FICtards looking over your shoulder? Look at what we accomplished and just improve on it please and stop it with the jamming

Ellie Edo: is ther not an ANNouncement forum - need hoardings in world and motd to tell ppl to come qand read it

Nolan Nash: We dont speak for him

Pendari Lorentz: well Jeffrey.. my proposal to the Lindens would be more of an interactive way of bring the forums inworld.. of course.. with HTML on a prim and future improvements.. I can't see that being so much an issue in the future.. publication of this resource

Jeffrey Gomez: My point is the group is irrelevant, Prok.

Pendari Lorentz: then becomes the main focus in my eyes

Prokofy Neva: No it is n't Jeff but you may be

Prokofy Neva: LOL

Jeffrey Gomez: Pendari: Thanks. You worry about not seeing the issue, but you have a great grasp.

Cocoanut Koala: I figure the same people who don't read them now won't read them on a prim, either

Jeffrey Gomez: Really, you do.

Prokofy Neva: Who are you to judge? let a thousand groups bloom and pick one and work in it

Mulch Ennui: i disagree completely jeffery, we asked for employee book and were given it, and also offered a brand spanking new venue to speak with philip, call a success a success man

Prokofy Neva: hehehe Coco you are SO right

Jeffrey Gomez: Who are you to, Prok?

Lordfly Digeridoo: please keep it civil...

Prokofy Neva: yes Mulch it is a success and it has to be upo to the next group to build on it

Jeffrey Gomez: It's just my opinion. One resident in the multitudes.

Lordfly Digeridoo: 2 minute warning

Jeffrey Gomez: As is your own.

Jeffrey Gomez: As is Coco's.

Cocoanut Koala: I would like to say in these two minutes

Nolan Nash: well pick ONE then prok, rather than feeding ortho to all the blossoms

Jeffrey Gomez: Please do, Cocoa.

Ellie Edo: a thousnad groups is good - but if we all come and talk in them all, they are all dead

Cocoanut Koala: that it is a mistake to think favoritism, conflicts of interests and

Prokofy Neva: Um I did already and I have several other groups to work other issues

Cocoanut Koala: the like are inevitable and not amenable to improvement.

Cocoanut Koala: They can very EASILY be eradicated, in large part, with

Cocoanut Koala: no loss of Linden accessibility and/or closeness as a result.

Jeffrey Gomez: They are inevitable since we're human beings and by our very nature not perfect, Cocoa.

Cocoanut Koala: They are not inevitably built into any system.

Jeffrey Gomez: The point is taking that out of the equation on affecting ALL of us, without fail.

Cocoanut Koala: A good system has safeguards against that.

Jeffrey Gomez: A good system doesn't safeguard, Cocoa.

Cocoanut Koala: SL needs those safeguards.

Jeffrey Gomez: It makes the issue irrelevant.

Ellie Edo: yes - forget favouritism - set up a transparent lobby system (know that is hopeless but soldiers on)

Cocoanut Koala: oh it doesn't?

Katt Kongo: G'night everyone. I have to go finish laying out the paper.

Jeffrey Gomez: It moves past the issue.

Cocoanut Koala: well, show me the magic way to jump right into making it irrelevant.

Lordfly Digeridoo: later katt, thanks for attending

Jeffrey Gomez: And that's my freaking point here.

Jake Reitveld: Crashed.

Pendari Lorentz: I personally think.. "ways that lindens can improve communication between residents" would be a great topic for a whole meeting.. and I'd love to get together and discuss it sometime =)

Prokofy Neva: There is nothing illegitimate about a few people concerned about an issue working it and presenting it to those in power without everyone else telling them they don't represent them -- let them pick their issues and work them too.

Cocoanut Koala: because it isn't irrelavent at this point.

Jeffrey Gomez: Easy.

Nolan Nash: nite Katt

Jeffrey Gomez: Have us own the data, the servers, and the assets.

Jake Reitveld: Nite Katt

Kurshie Muromachi: Gnight Katt

Aimee Weber: nite katt

Jeffrey Gomez: Bye, Katt.

Cocoanut Koala: That they are not going to do right now.

Mulch Ennui: omg fidel castro just offered 1000 doctors and 26,000 pounds of medicine to gulf coast, sorry off topic but between aimee and prok in same group, LF playing the part of prok and that this week is truly unbeleivable

Nolan Nash: wb jake

Cocoanut Koala: Making other corrections they CAN do right now.

Jeffrey Gomez: But it's a solution, isn't it? =)

Cocoanut Koala: Is there some reason not to make those corrections?

Pendari Lorentz: night Katt =)

Prokofy Neva: Yes they are more than aware of the communications problems and in fairness that's why they've made things like SLTV, the events working group, the separate topic meetings with Pathfinder, the suggesetions at PF's etc

Pendari Lorentz: *wave*

Mulch Ennui: bye

Jeffrey Gomez: Yes, Cocoa. It's a hard transition.

Jake Reitveld: Ty Nolan.

Cocoanut Koala: It is not a hard transition whatsoever.

Lordfly Digeridoo: TIME... please wrap up the discussion to make way for the final issue in the queue.

Jeffrey Gomez: But of anyone, LL has everything to benefit from it.

Ellie Edo: dead right prok, so long as the less bright among them then dont go about saying it represents everyone and is about opure generalised justice

Cocoanut Koala: It is so simple it is laughable. The end.

Jeffrey Gomez: That may sound strange to some people, but.

Jeffrey Gomez: Simple, Cocoa?

Lordfly Digeridoo: Blueman Steele has the floor now.... Blue, take it away.

Cocoanut Koala: yes, but time is up on this i believe.

Jeffrey Gomez: You try converting the code to peer to peer yourself.

Ellie Edo: pressur groups, bring em on, in honesty and light

Cocoanut Koala: Code doesn't have anything to do with it.

Blueman Steele: Proposal: We give an official number, title, and status to all proposals to facilitate talking about them in the forums and referign to them at future meetings.

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa, that part may be true, which is why I present the following.

Jeffrey Gomez: If Second Life doesn't do it, they will fail.

Blueman Steele: The status might be( just ideas here) 1) open for discussion 2) moved/combined/replaced by a new proposal 3) Dead moot impossible stupid

Jeffrey Gomez: And someone else will.

Jeffrey Gomez: The end.

Cocoanut Koala: Jeffrey, I say this open source stuff has absolutely NOTHING to do with Prok's topic.

Cocoanut Koala: You might just as well apply that reasoning

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks please, the other topics are finished for tonight. Plese focus on Blue's.

Cocoanut Koala: to the topics that preceeded this one.

Pendari Lorentz: I think it would be great if we could have a group forum where we could rehash issues even after meetings.. granted.. the meeting logs and summaries themselves would need to be sent on to Lindens

Prokofy Neva: Blueman that sounds good except I don't want you being the one to decide that something is impossibly stupid until I hear the criteria for that

Cocoanut Koala: sorry

Jeffrey Gomez: I don't understand the question, Cocoa, but we're out of time.

Jeffrey Gomez: Maybe later.

Jeffrey Gomez: NEXT.

Ellie Edo: im close to giving up here.....

Blueman Steele: well duh prokofy.. and I am going to finally tell you to hus and lsiten as I did fo ryou

Mulch Ennui: the li9ndens arent going to take time tomakes sense of these chat logs

Lordfly Digeridoo: which is why i'm going to distill them...

Pendari Lorentz: but it would give us a chance to chat further.. to be prepared for the meetings with the Lindens =)

Prokofy Neva: LF is distilling them ostensibly, we'll see how that works out

Ellie Edo: lets hope not

Blueman Steele: we are discussing.. get you scared language out of this discussion and listen while I FINISH my point

Lordfly Digeridoo: i'll post the distillations in the forums as well, for discussion.

Mulch Ennui: good idear lf

Lordfly Digeridoo: please listen to blue.

Prokofy Neva: who among us will not swear he is not a Linden already?

Prokofy Neva: I

Nolan Nash: I

Cocoanut Koala: huh?

Blueman Steele: Ok I"m staring over.

Jeffrey Gomez: I wonder. Editorial, have anything to add before this goes to the forums?

Aimee Weber: heh heh.

Jeffrey Gomez: I'm not a Linden.

Ellie Edo: do we want a group forum in the derelict section?

Mulch Ennui: please everyone yield to blue

Blueman Steele: Proposal: We give an official number, title, and status to all proposals to facilitate talking about them in the forums and referign to them at future meetings.

Prokofy Neva: Editorial are you a Linden?

Lordfly Digeridoo: Everyone yield to blue. Please.

Cocoanut Koala: "aye"

Lordfly Digeridoo: Prok, please give Blue the common courtesy to speak.

Blueman Steele: so whith that proposal given.. I'd liek to suggest some status -es

Mulch Ennui: i agree with blue

Blueman Steele: 1 is that is si new and "open for discussion"

Pendari Lorentz: I'm Listening blue =)

Blueman Steele: 2 is that is it is now part of a new one or absorbed or replaced

Blueman Steele: 3... si that it is somehow moot.. not who decides that.. I dont' know

Blueman Steele: but as I said before.. it's just an idea

Lordfly Digeridoo: hmm.

Blueman Steele: ideas seem to realy scare folk

Editorial Hare: i'm sorry, I have been away for a bit. I do have a few comments if we have time

Cocoanut Koala: sounds good to me

Blueman Steele: This will make it easier for those who could not make the meeting to give input, in the spirit of keeping the discussions as open as possible

Lordfly Digeridoo: editorial: please hold until current issue is discused.

Lordfly Digeridoo: just unegging build -- chairs are nice anyway

Blueman Steele: and not beat dead horses that have been moved on over

Ellie Edo: many of us are waiting , editorial...

Editorial Hare: i'm in no rush )

Blueman Steele: so LF.. what actions will be taken?

Jeffrey Gomez: Because you're the unofficial forum mouthpiece, we'd like to hear them when done, EH.

Blueman Steele: I know you are making a bullet point list

Blueman Steele: can we post these to the forum? or shoudl we keep it here?

Prokofy Neva: OMG I dno't believe I heard that

Prokofy Neva: I do not believe I heard that

Mulch Ennui: lmao

Lordfly Digeridoo: blue: i'm not sure, really. it's an idea for consideration, but I truly get totally off kilter when it comes to coming up with any sort of organization... naming props as one, two, etc. will take a lot of time... plus it's arbitrary

Prokofy Neva: Should I walk to work? Or should I take my lunch?

Mulch Ennui: keep it among us super secret ninja types

Ellie Edo: is this an issue, or housekeeping?

Ellie Edo: there are issues waiting

Lordfly Digeridoo: btw, all of this will be posted on forums.

Cocoanut Koala: housekeeping

Blueman Steele: thanks fo rbeing such a rude ass prokofy

Prokofy Neva: oh it's a mere technical housekeeping issue, not any political substance of course

Jeffrey Gomez: To that issue, I say pirates are cooler than ninjas. Continue discussion dammit.

Blueman Steele: bye all.. I can't stand this.. my proposal is printed.

Prokofy Neva: Um Editorial Hair just posts my meetings to the forums, um, he doesn't yours? I dunno

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks, please, give blue's prop some consideration...

Prokofy Neva: you get to CLEAR on whether he does yours????

Ellie Edo: in this he wasnt a rude ass, blue

Blueman Steele: "OMG I can't belive I heard that"

Lordfly Digeridoo: sigh.

Prokofy Neva: I as an accurate ass on that one blue sorry

Jeffrey Gomez: Should I take the time to point out this is a PG sim?

Cocoanut Koala: I voted yes for blue's thing

Mulch Ennui: i dont know if this is the proper venue for editorial actually, unless you are geraldo reporters shouldnt amke news, they should report

Prokofy Neva: Should I take the time to point out that abuse reporting people for swearing in PG to settle scores is an abuse of the AR system?

Lordfly Digeridoo: BWTW, I don't have any one else in the official queue...

Blueman Steele: LF since I might actualy still have the floor.. when is the next meetin gplanned

Lordfly Digeridoo: blueman: obstentibly, the Linden one will be mid-week...

Jeffrey Gomez: AR away, Prok. I'll take ten for my foul mouth. =)

Prokofy Neva: Could we get a reading of the room please on whether you clear or do not clear on Editorial Hare writing to the forums?

Jake Reitveld: You provide the paintings, I'll provide the war.

Jeffrey Gomez: Point being, KEEP IT CIVIL.

Prokofy Neva: I don't use the AR system Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gomez: Continue.

Lordfly Digeridoo: PEOPLE PLEASE.

Mulch Ennui: as long as editorial doesnt take part in the discussions, let editorial post

Lordfly Digeridoo: blueman: these meetings will hopefully be every sunday, with a linden follow up meeting midweek (wednesday, ish)

Ellie Edo: blue - you had one whole issue, now you take another for housekeeping while others are waiting.that is not polite or efficient

Prokofy Neva: Seconded

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Sundays? Ack there goes NFL for me

Lordfly Digeridoo: editorial can partake in any discussion. Last I checked he wasn't a robot sent to destroy us.

Kurshie Muromachi: There will be other opputune times for additional discussions. Blue was in the queue though.

Bruno Buckenburger: LOL

Blueman Steele: hey I got in the que and come up twice

Blueman Steele: anytone else was free too

Prokofy Neva: Blue spoke at length already and Ellie has bene waiting tho

Prokofy Neva: that isn't fair

Jeffrey Gomez: My only point of contention is emphasizing the discussion in the (only) log of it.

Blueman Steele: then why isn't ellie in the que?

Mulch Ennui: well if he is here to cover the event, he should not take part, against jouranlistic ethics i beleive. if he is not reporting and is here as a resident, speak away

Lordfly Digeridoo: Ellie never got into the queue...

Cocoanut Koala: Editorial isn't just one person, I don't believe

Prokofy Neva: He is as far as I know

Cocoanut Koala: so how can he be a resident?

Prokofy Neva: he asked at the outset

Prokofy Neva: ohhhh Coco you are so right

Ellie Edo: to be really honest - i aleays thought he was prok. loo. could they dance together

Prokofy Neva: no I am not that Hare

Jeffrey Gomez: I would like, if possible, that the log itself be done simply - like through Ulrika's colorizer.

Ellie Edo: sorry - very naughty

Nolan Nash: I should have brought a friend...

Jeffrey Gomez: Instead of with undue stress to skew reaction.

Cocoanut Koala: I agree with Jeffrey

Prokofy Neva: OMG no, no Ulrika perlustration please

Jeffrey Gomez: Anything beyond that, happens.

Blueman Steele: look I got up cause I was in the que.. if that is at issue lets fixi it now and giv ethe last word to someoen else

Cocoanut Koala: Let Editorial write their own opinion piece.

Blueman Steele: if someone has been left out speak up

Jeffrey Gomez: Hahaha, I could care less who MADE it, Prok. Fact is it works.

Lordfly Digeridoo: brb...

Blueman Steele: was El left out of the que or not

Mulch Ennui: jouranlists shouldnt report on stories they are involved with ethically, thats my take. no coverage, let him chime in

Prokofy Neva: that's one of those cultural beliefs I challenge Jeffrey about it "wroking"

Prokofy Neva: well this is all gonzo game journalism here Mulch

Mulch Ennui: tabloid

Prokofy Neva: Comments Seldon?

Jake Reitveld: HST rocked.

Ellie Edo: since we are now in total chaos, and we are not seeking consensus but the recording of points, could i just write my "compensation culture" one clearly into the record?

Blueman Steele: AS I WAS SAYING IS IT MY TURN OR WAS SOMEING LEFT OUT

Cocoanut Koala: i dont think this is total chaos

Mulch Ennui: go blue

Lordfly Digeridoo: Ellie was never put into the queue, she never asked...

Blueman Steele: ELLIE IF YOU HAD SOEMTINGTO SAY WHY DIDN'T YOU IM LF LIEK WE ALL DID

Prokofy Neva: Me neither except BLue is shouting but other than that

Ellie Edo: no? really? gee !

Prokofy Neva: Ellie did indeed ask at the outset

Memory Harker can only hope that professional, non-tabloid journalists will be as nonbiased and succinct and charming as Prok.

Seldon Metropolitan: well, as I plan on simply reporting on the existance of the meeting, I dont believe I compromised my journalistic integrity by saying that the voting system sucks

Prokofy Neva: maybe just didn't put an IM to LF that's all but asked in the room many times

Mulch Ennui: seldon check the ethics of jouranlism please

Prokofy Neva: no Seldon you're as safe as houses on that one

Blueman Steele: yea I asked several times too and got steamrolled by many of you for minutes

Kurshie Muromachi: Did you IM lordfly your issue to be queued?

Mulch Ennui: i agree with you but you risk becoming the story at that point

Ellie Edo: you had a whole long topic, didnt you blue?

Prokofy Neva: Um Memory sarcasm is such a hard art to practice in this electronic soup? so

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks, please, keep it... civil.

Nolan Nash: just let Ellie talk now

Lordfly Digeridoo: i don't even know what's being discussed right now.

Lordfly Digeridoo: Ellie, you have the floor, but PLEASE in the future IM me to be put in the queue.

Prokofy Neva: Ellie? compensation culture?

Blueman Steele: so what.. I had mine and got back in line

Jeffrey Gomez: Mm. I love the taste of bait in the morning. Anyone have any more relevant issues to discuss that are burning?

Nolan Nash: heh

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie does. Editorial is up after her.

Jeffrey Gomez: Alrighty.

Lordfly Digeridoo: and I'm going to calll it after that.

Ellie Edo: ok - the topic is simple. I would like it on record that at least ellie edo wd like to express support for ll in refusing any compensation, and standing firm that business risk is risk, and ll must progress regardless of hurting some residents in the wid

Blueman Steele: So do we just get one turn per meeting now? I'd liek to know since I'm boing told "I had my turn"

Ellie Edo: wider good

Jeffrey Gomez: Ellie, I feel the need to agree.

Aimee Weber:

Lordfly Digeridoo: blue: no such thing will be thought.

Cocoanut Koala: I feel the need to disagree, as the statement itself is loaded.

Jeffrey Gomez: Simply because certain matters like these are precisely why a good business diversifies.

Blueman Steele: ok because I am being passed over and have not yeilded the floor.. si this how it will be?

Prokofy Neva: And Prok will go on the record that if barons buy telehubs *at auction* for a bid *set by LL* and 10 days later they *change the product itself* not the environment that is FALSE advertising

Jeffrey Gomez: And because this is not owned by us.

Nolan Nash: I agree Ellie, to do so would not only bring out many cries of favortism, due to the fact that each scenario will be uniqe, but it will also hinder progress of teh game/platform as a whole

Mulch Ennui: blueman, i was declined the floor if that makes you feel better

Prokofy Neva: We need a process for discussion, mitigation, disputes resolutions with the Lindens themselves on this and not a culture of social Darwinism dispensed by tekkies who don't invest anyway.

Blueman Steele: I want everyone to speak.. I jsut want some order via LF

Cocoanut Koala: I'm wishing to know what else Blueman was going to say?

Jeffrey Gomez: Nolan: Such is why this is a crucial time in Second Life's development.

Ellie Edo: any othyer comments on the issue - i think its hot, important, and significant

Lordfly Digeridoo: trying, blue...

Bruno Buckenburger: I think LF has done a great job. Particularly dealing with all the prima donnas here.

Aimee Weber: yes

Teeny Leviathan: Agreed

Jake Reitveld: Agreed.

Prokofy Neva: The proof in the pudding is his distillation job and how the meeting goes with the Lindens.

Memory Harker: Whoa. How do tekkies --- by their WORKS you shall know them --- not "invest" Prok?

Lordfly Digeridoo is not a ninja moderator, just an architect

Jeffrey Gomez: Just one. That GOM could have handled themselves far more professionally in the response.

Jeffrey Gomez: But that's my opinion.

Jeffrey Gomez: And so could have LL.

Nolan Nash: dont go there memory...

Prokofy Neva: They don't invest in the land and the service businesess that are the subject of this disputes system Memory

Mulch Ennui: i would agree about LF except I was denied in IM the venue to speak

Jeffrey Gomez: We should take this as a lesson.

Ellie Edo: i know i must be a bastard, but i just cant get my head round all this mutual congrtaulation

Prokofy Neva: you all get to natter on about textures and how to get compensation there, and what, that principle doesn't applly on telehubs?

Lordfly Digeridoo: not intentional...

Jake Reitveld: Well i am a pirate Prima Donna, and aprat from the fact that pirates are cooler than ninja's I say you did great LF

Jeffrey Gomez: Arrr...

Cocoanut Koala: Well, cause we might as well be nice, Ellie, and LF did go to a lot of trouble for us!

Aimee Weber:

Aimee Weber: lol

Jeffrey Gomez: I need to get my "Space Pirate" tag out.

Cocoanut Koala: prok has a good point

Ellie Edo: shoul LL compenste people when they lose because things change - its yes or no

Teeny Leviathan: Textures are resident creations. Telehubs are a Linden utility. That is the difference.

Prokofy Neva: You all got to go on an d on about protecting your textures

Lordfly Digeridoo: people, please keep the congratulations or anti-congrats til after the meeting, keep to the topic on hand...

Prokofy Neva: and I can't protect my telehub land? huh?

Prokofy Neva: that's what is wrong with this world frankly

Jeffrey Gomez: Ellie, you're going to hate my response to that question.

Prokofy Neva: that skewing

Nolan Nash: is this ellies topic or proks?

Prokofy Neva: and that willingness to tell me to eat risk but you don't get to eat risk

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks, if I may... I need to halt discussion for a second or two...

Mulch Ennui: ellie: when LL offers to "compensate" someone for something, or else they will take it anyway, yeah thats a problem, it is extortion at best

Jeffrey Gomez: Simply, "only as determined in a court of law."

Lordfly Digeridoo waves his hands around

Jeffrey Gomez: Which I REALLY hope doesn't happen.

Ellie Edo: no = this is good - rel pts and real disagreement

Prokofy Neva: when has LL done that? they offered stock options to GOM, and I'm suggesting we need a procedure for that, not ad hoc lobbying

Nolan Nash: they didnt take it away, they made their own

Prokofy Neva: can I get stock options when they dump telehubs?

Jeffrey Gomez: I think Sony will be the pioneers in legal ethics, or lack thereof, though.

Prokofy Neva: that I developed and had them crush?

Lordfly Digeridoo: Folks, I really need to pause this particular issue...

Jeffrey Gomez: Yeah LF?

Mulch Ennui: if LL didnt feel they owed anything to GOM they would not have made an offer, period

Prokofy Neva: what Mulch said

Ellie Edo: if compensation yes - can i claim when land prices drop anmd i lose - is it any different?? i think not

Jeffrey Gomez: GOM did pioneer how we think about money in Second Life.

Prokofy Neva: the point is not to stop compensation the point is to regulate it

Jeffrey Gomez: But they positioned themselves poorly in the end.

Lordfly Digeridoo: I apologize a billion times, but apparently the last issue was not satisfactorially resolved, and blueman would like to make a few more statements... I promise this won't be a common occurance.

Jeffrey Gomez: Which is very tough on a business mind.

Prokofy Neva: Lindens did yeah, because they are crashign the gom with that poor handling

Nolan Nash: how can you regulate it when each incident is or will be unique?

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Then maybe LL should offer a type of insurance.

Mulch Ennui: omg SL insurance

Prokofy Neva: no it won't we can make some common ground rules about services, land, and creations

Lordfly Digeridoo: Floor given to blue, quickly...

Jeffrey Gomez: Excuse me, I'll be right back.

Ellie Edo: i dont think ll were offering gom compensation - i think they were offering to buy a closer cooperation

Mulch Ennui: wose then SL lawyers (sorry kat)

Cocoanut Koala: y'all listen to blue please

Prokofy Neva: that IS compensation Ellie -- it's a door oprize

Blueman Steele: *ahem

Lordfly Digeridoo: blueman has the floor for a bit... please listen.

Jake Reitveld: Damn. I am gonna start charging for lawyer jokes.

Mulch Ennui shouts: yield to blueman

Blueman Steele: It seems the turn I was given left someoen out

Mulch Ennui: sorry to u too jake

Ellie Edo: ok - my land price dropped - why cannot i demabnd compensation

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: please, put on pause...

Blueman Steele: no matter what th reason.. it's ufair for me to speak twice if someoen didn't under stand the system we are making on the fly there

Prokofy Neva: that's different because they didn't advertise the land at a certain price on the auction, it droppoed months and months later for complicated reasons that they are at fault for, but not as much as the telehub sale on the auction

Prokofy Neva: yes what is the system we are making on the fly?

Blueman Steele: I'd like to renounce all my time and yeild to Ellie for last words in thsi meeting

Ellie Edo: lf = with great respect - he had it once, surely no second turns till everyon waiting has had one - is this favouritism?

Memory Harker: Yay Blue!

Blueman Steele: I'd also like to emphisis that Prokfy did not hush up

Blueman Steele: I gladly yeild my time to Ellie if she did not get to speak

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: no it isn't, my queue was "first come, first serve". No one else came forward.

Lordfly Digeridoo: ergo, he gets to ride the roller coaster again.

Mulch Ennui: my roller coaster?

Memory Harker: And has offered to step off, though.

Mulch Ennui: o nvm

Lordfly Digeridoo: but now he's given the coaster car to you, so continue with the discussion.

Ellie Edo: i had actually finished - i dont wish to speak more - i just wish anyone else who has feelinds on it to have the opportunuity

Blueman Steele: yea well next time don't just burst in when someone else was given the floor.

Nolan Nash: I thinkits just too difficult to regulate

Prokofy Neva: rolls eyes

Prokofy Neva: THe point is to have a system of discussions with Lindens about how and when they do that to businesses

Prokofy Neva: without it becoming forums hysteria

Lordfly Digeridoo: i would like to suggest we wrap up these issues with one another quickly and soon and succiently...

Nolan Nash: their gonna stay like that

Ellie Edo: blue = that was yr second time. i havenyimagined that have i?

Lordfly Digeridoo: to unpause the business/compensation discussion...

Ellie Edo: not yr fault - just the chaos

Blueman Steele: no you didn't imagine that... but you didn't get into the line to chat... by mistake of course

Blueman Steele: but "my second time" doesn't give me any less right to it

Lordfly Digeridoo: i reckon it's my fault there. i'll try to come up with more concrete rules ofr the next meeting.

Blueman Steele: we'll allhave second times and thirds

Lordfly Digeridoo: let us leave it at "it's LF's fault, let's roast him on the forums" and move on.

Blueman Steele: hear hear. LF's fault

Jeffrey Gomez: Woot! I'm safe!

Cocoanut Koala: yay!

Lordfly Digeridoo: hear hear. *drinks some beer*

Blueman Steele toasts with tea

Lordfly Digeridoo: onward with business compensation.

Lordfly Digeridoo: unpause conversation.

Jeffrey Gomez: So uhh... how about them Dodgers - I mean, the LL takes over business issue?

Prokofy Neva: I want to make sure that you don't cook up a handy undermining of the business interests groups just because of your animosity to non-creator commerce

Jake Reitveld: Dodgers Suck!

Mulch Ennui: and swallow!

Prokofy Neva: if you don't want telehub compensation , trust me , your views have been heard

Lordfly Digeridoo: please...

Jake Reitveld: Sorry LF

Euterpe Roo: Just to clarify, what is non-creator commerce?

Nolan Nash: land and rentals

Mulch Ennui: land barons

Cocoanut Koala: land sales, entertainment

Jake Reitveld: Lawyers.

Prokofy Neva: you're forgetting that *the Lindens themsleves have repeatedly said that they are looking at the problem of telehub compensation

Cocoanut Koala: other services

Nolan Nash: they pay ll's salries

Euterpe Roo: Oh. Thank you.

Bruno Buckenburger: LMAO Jake

Prokofy Neva: plus they didn't SAY they were getting rid of them PS

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok: Owning our own freaking servers?

Euterpe Roo: Quite a large category, is it not?

Prokofy Neva: That's a topic for the future, not relevant right this moment

Prokofy Neva: there's lots to adjudicate there too

Jeffrey Gomez: Tell me, what do you think is the real relevance of Telehubs?

Jeffrey Gomez: Just, flatly.

Mulch Ennui: to make everyone a grey ruth

Prokofy Neva: and Noland everyone pays Linden salaries if they pay tier and they give them all kinds of freebie time and so on so that's silly to pit people against each other like that

Lordfly Digeridoo: they were put in to gently encourage commercial development.

Lordfly Digeridoo: they have failed.

Prokofy Neva: No they have not

Jeffrey Gomez: I agree, LF.

Armath Severine: Well.. Mr. Neva managed to bump into me at a telehub and got a meeting going.

Prokofy Neva: that is just your uneducated opinion

Nolan Nash: it was sarcasm prok

Lordfly Digeridoo: uneducated?

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Maybe its just me but I have never stopped somewhere just because I saw it right as a spawned at a hub and I have never been oppossed to flying 1200M to get to a store either

Prokofy Neva: you are just kids who don't DO this type of commerce so you are talking through you hat

Lordfly Digeridoo: watch the insults, prok...

Cocoanut Koala: They did encourage commercial development, so they haven't failed

Nolan Nash: kids?

Prokofy Neva: I challenge you to come on a tour of telehubs with me and I will complmtely demolish all your arguemnts

Jeffrey Gomez: Telehubs fail for one major reason.

Jeffrey Gomez: You know what that is?

Mulch Ennui: grey ruths

Prokofy Neva: they do not fail

Jeffrey Gomez: Most of us leave before they've rezzed.

Prokofy Neva: you do not know them

Prokofy Neva: you do not see them

Prokofy Neva: you do not work them

Memory Harker: Because Prok likes them, Jeff? Is that why they fail?

Lordfly Digeridoo: prok, we all use telehubs.

Prokofy Neva: you are talking through your !@#$@!$#@

Cocoanut Koala: They are obviously important to commercial development

Jeffrey Gomez: That's exactly the problem, Prok.

Jeffrey Gomez: EXACTLY the problem.

Prokofy Neva: people shop in them and sales are made

Cocoanut Koala: else the land around them wouldn't be worth more.

Cocoanut Koala: Therefore - they have not failed.

Lordfly Digeridoo: coco: but they're so numerous there's no central development.

Prokofy Neva: ask your LIinden pals to give the numbers on telehub sales

Prokofy Neva: let's ask

Prokofy Neva: seriously

Jeffrey Gomez: Because I don't see them, does it not follow that many don't?

Nolan Nash: they were marketed that way coco

Prokofy Neva: that will put an end to this ridiculous stupid uninformed debate

Lordfly Digeridoo: noted. put in notes.

Mulch Ennui: a comprehensive find directory would encourage commerce far more than a telehub would

Prokofy Neva: ask your Linden pals

Prokofy Neva: to print out the numbers

Cocoanut Koala: Yes, Lordfly, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are commercial centers and valuable land.

Prokofy Neva: of sales of telehub stuff

Jake Reitveld: I dunno, I don't have enough data to really speak on the issue, but in my game telehubs are useless.

Lordfly Digeridoo: again, watch the insinuations...

Nolan Nash: by players

Prokofy Neva: go on last 10 things in world and LOOOK

Prokofy Neva: LOOOOK at what it says

Armath Severine: I showed up late .. so maybe I'm missing this.. But I dont think the "avarage user" puts too much thought into the pros and cons of a telehub. At the moment, they are jsut a given. And are to be dealt with.

Prokofy Neva: Brownlee Wixom Clunn

Prokofy Neva: go LOOOK at the frigging facts on the website

Cocoanut Koala: Not only that, there is no REASON to get rid of them.

Prokofy Neva: DOn't dispnese with y our half-baked aesthetic college factoids

Jeffrey Gomez: Meh. I do. Most times they're tip jars, Prok.

Blueman Steele: Prokofy have you thought of starting your own group where peopel dont' care how reude your are?

Prokofy Neva: no reason at all

Prokofy Neva: and they are not

Jeffrey Gomez: When I look anyway.

Blueman Steele: adn I mrean really SL is fo r18 and up.. actu that old at least

Armath Severine: And as for commerce, if thjey want soemthing, they can use the Find menu to get it.

Prokofy Neva: um Jeffrey Im saying that is a tast of the figures

Prokofy Neva: not the hwole sales of the world

Cocoanut Koala: Give me a reason to get rid of telehubs.

Mulch Ennui: mjw failed at that blue

Jeffrey Gomez: Freedom of Choice.

Prokofy Neva: I'm saying the telehub sales can be broken out FROM that and you can see they serve a purpose

Lordfly Digeridoo: please keep this civil...

Lordfly Digeridoo: afk.

Blueman Steele: right mulch.. what was I thnking

Cocoanut Koala: But you could ADD point to point without getting rid of telehubs.

Jeffrey Gomez: As I said, I would pay to not use a Telehub.

Prokofy Neva: Mulch MJW didn't fail because you left it may now succeed lol

Prokofy Neva: so stop with the propganda lol

Cocoanut Koala: In fact, I think they ought to make you pay to not use a telehub, jeff

Jeffrey Gomez: Realistically within the system.

Cocoanut Koala: cause I don't mind them

Prokofy Neva: exactly Coco

Jeffrey Gomez: And that's the point.

Jeffrey Gomez: You may not mind.

Shaun Altman: Coconaut: I have a good reason. If we got rid of telehubs, we could have light rail!

Ellie Edo: personally i approve terlehubs, dont want free p2p

Jeffrey Gomez: I do.

Cocoanut Koala: and I would LOVE to have you "sink" your money into the p2p

Jeffrey Gomez: Many do.

Prokofy Neva: and the telehubs are not in the plan to remove despite all this tekkie hatred of them

Jeffrey Gomez: Such is our point of contention.

Mulch Ennui: until u and anshe get over your "leadership " issues prok, any group you lead ihas a problem

Prokofy Neva: yeah sink your money on stuff you like, don't plan money sinks for me LOL

Prokofy Neva: um Mulch you are really out of touch dude about all that

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, malls work.

Cocoanut Koala: I want telehhubs to stay.

Jeffrey Gomez: Telehubs really don't.

Prokofy Neva: malls work at telehubs and shortly outside of them

Jake Reitveld: I want people to sink thier money into mediation.

Cocoanut Koala: Why do you want to take them away from me?

Prokofy Neva: it's actually the ones 450 m out that work best

Jeffrey Gomez: I don't?

Ellie Edo: i believe they give the world structure - frustrate us like RL, and improve immersion by forcimg us to fly about

Prokofy Neva: I can show you this inworld if you'd come on a tour

Cocoanut Koala: You would like them to stay too?

Jeffrey Gomez: I said in my thesis I would pay to not use them.

Shaun Altman: Coconaut: b/c I want to charge u to ride my trains!

Ellie Edo: yes

Cocoanut Koala: wel lI would love to ride your trains too, shaun!

Shaun Altman: hehe

Prokofy Neva: This hatred of telehubs is directly proportional to the fact that Lordfly has a store very far from them and hates making people fly

Cocoanut Koala: But no need to take away telehubs whatsoever.

Prokofy Neva: could we just get that's what it's about?

Blueman Steele: btw the time I yeileded to Ellie.. was to be the last issue.. so I propose we officially adjourn the meeting

Prokofy Neva: look at the traffic numbers at these boutique stores far from telehubs so they can be "esthetic"

Jake Reitveld: Well Its also about the fact that I find them annoying.

Cocoanut Koala: What is wrong with having both telehubs and p2p that you pay for?

Ellie Edo: i vote telehubs sty - no free p2p

Jake Reitveld:

Prokofy Neva: Jake you haven't seen them all

Cocoanut Koala: I vote with elly

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, I have no store. That line of reasoning fails where LF ends. :}

Prokofy Neva: some are quite effective

Cocoanut Koala: in fact, ellie, seems like a no-brainer to me

Euterpe Roo: I agree, Blue.

Prokofy Neva: well let' ask Aimee

Jeffrey Gomez: Telehubs do one thing for me.

Prokofy Neva: Aimee? Telehubs?

Jeffrey Gomez: Not rez.

Prokofy Neva: how is your store traffic doing?

Shaun Altman: Coconaut: nothing is wrong with that. In all seriousness, that would be the perfect solution I think.

Jeffrey Gomez: Meaning I get to fly in the dark.

Shaun Altman: telehubs are basic

Ellie Edo: if you get this you will regret it - an intangible psychological loss if no other

Shaun Altman: p2p adds value

Jeffrey Gomez: Before I get the hell out.

Cocoanut Koala: So why dobn't we tell the lindens that?

Cocoanut Koala: i mean, could this group agree on that?

Jake Reitveld: Well thats true, but when I want to go to play tringo it annoys me to have to flyl from the telehub, easier just to fly there.

Cocoanut Koala: telehubs plus pay for p2p?

Prokofy Neva: Jeffrey can I interest in you in a telehub stall for your game thingie or something?

Jeffrey Gomez: And how would you feel about bidding for Telehubs, Prok/Cocoa?

Aimee Weber: Question. If a user created somelike like ROAM on their own that effectively simulated P2P teleport, with NO help from the lindens. would you adovate disabling any technology that made that product work? or would you accept it as a freemarket creation?

Jeffrey Gomez: As devil's advocate.

Mulch Ennui: lol whose alt is sorrel ? just negged me for being a "traitor" and for "killing mjw" now its my fault, lmao

Prokofy Neva: I don't go on the Linden auctions

Nolan Nash: its OUR public tranportation, so if ppl dont like having to weather a lag storm 80 story tall little tokyo every time they wanna go somewhere, its there right to state that without being framed as "haters' or LF being blamed for it all

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, I have one. It's called a private island. ^^

Prokofy Neva: unless I absolutel have to because a piece recycling is right next to me

Prokofy Neva: I never go on them

Prokofy Neva: they rot

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Freemarket creation

Prokofy Neva: yeah so why is that your private Idaho is better than my mainland?

Prokofy Neva: it's just your private Idaho

Cocoanut Koala: who could afford Roam.

Prokofy Neva: in which you are living

Jeffrey Gomez: Did I say better?

Ellie Edo: if you must have p2p, cahage thru the nose for it, and get an L$ sink

Jeffrey Gomez: I said choice.

Cocoanut Koala: Choice, I like that.

Cocoanut Koala: almost always, in fact.

Aimee Weber: Well Francis is pretty frustrated with SL. for all we know he could offer roam for free.

Jeffrey Gomez: It follows that we should be able to choose how we exist in Second Life, and porting is a part of that.

Armath Severine: I dont stop to smell the roses around a telehub. I port and fly wherever my beacon is taking me. When I hit that loverly red spike, If it hasn't taken me to what I need, I port elsewhere.

Prokofy Neva: When I was your age I was hauling mailbags and picking strawberries and working the swing shift at Xerox, I didn't have a private island when I was 22 on the Internet, so sorry if I just don't get the culture : )

Teeny Leviathan: P2P should'nt be expensive, but it shouldn,t be ferr either.

Teeny Leviathan: *free

Jake Reitveld: Well i think somone outh to ask the users how we use SL.

Prokofy Neva: yes Jake thanks

Prokofy Neva: well said

Prokofy Neva: and that comes back to my "last 10 things in world"

Prokofy Neva: stop draming that the least 10 things in world is poetry

Prokofy Neva: it's telehub sales and bling and casinos

Jeffrey Gomez: "Back in my day...."

Cocoanut Koala: It should cost at least as much as uploading a texture! (she says huffily)

Jeffrey Gomez: Oog.

Ellie Edo: Is the geography of the wotrld to be extinguished, become meaningless? is every sort of activity to spread uniformly like butter on bread?

Jake Reitveld: But for me. I donlt use telehubs.

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa: My thought exactly.

Prokofy Neva: we had to load coal into the Internet every morning and stoke it up and blow on the coals to keep it running

Jake Reitveld: othey are an annoyance , like traffic.

Armath Severine: Suppose that SL is jsut like any other past time. Deal with it's faults, they are here for a reason.

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok, did you see the Coal Miner thread a while back?

Cocoanut Koala: I have to admit, the way I see p2p as replacing roam is exactly the opposite of how I feel about Lindens replacing GOM, and I can't figure out why.

Prokofy Neva: Do you all realize that this tekkie treehug stuff on telehubs is what killed the new continent? it made it unsellable for months

Prokofy Neva: until finally the fever broke and the Lindens put in a few

Jake Reitveld: Yeah and then they wroecked my parthenon.

Ellie Edo: yay , coco, i like it

Cocoanut Koala: that's true, it cost my friend a few hours

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa: Because GOM didn't include a huge system flaw in its losing value?

Jake Reitveld: Which was it the middle of no wher.

Cocoanut Koala: what?

Shaun Altman: Prokofy: I still maintain they should have put in trains

Jake Reitveld: and now tringo/badagirls.

Shaun Altman: I mean they have SO many roads there

Jeffrey Gomez: ROAM lost value because its code got hacked.

Corialote Dougall grumbles

Cocoanut Koala: I'm trying to figure out why I get mad wjen they replace GOM, but don't mind them replacing ROAM.

Prokofy Neva: the iron y is I lobbied for telehubs in the new continent so they put one right next to my beautiful wilderness waterf all sim

Prokofy Neva: that was my punishment lol

Lordfly Digeridoo: back, apologies

Aimee Weber: web LF

Kurshie Muromachi: I prefer Telehubs over ROAM. If I wanted I could TP over and boost on over with my jetpack. I would only pay for ROAM if it offered direct TPing.

Ellie Edo: $30 per p2p - thats my suggestion, or better still, dont have it at all

Jeffrey Gomez: Meh. I just use my speed override to fly. :}

Jake Reitveld: I like fre p2p

Cocoanut Koala: you are telling me ROAM is now not very good or something?

Bruno Buckenburger: Free is better

Jeffrey Gomez: From the half-rezzed telehub.

Prokofy Neva: It jams on sim seams

Jeffrey Gomez: Cocoa, ROAM is a hack.

Ellie Edo: maybe allow each person three "teleport home" spots, instead of one.

Jeffrey Gomez: No offense to the good work that went into it.

Cocoanut Koala: If you had free p2p, no one would use telehubs.

Jeffrey Gomez: But this is a statement of fact.

Lordfly Digeridoo: okay, giving this a 2 minute warning...

Cocoanut Koala: telehub land and businesses would suffer.

Prokofy Neva: actually Coco they would

Teeny Leviathan: P2p should be metered by distance, like the old Pre-Telehub days.

Jake Reitveld: sure. But cocoa I don;lt use them now by choice.

Cocoanut Koala: besides - p2p is like a LUXURY

Prokofy Neva: in order to p2p you have to have a p to p2

Cocoanut Koala: therefore a good way to make a money sink.

Memory Harker: Is it dancing time yet?

Prokofy Neva: how do you get them?

Lordfly Digeridoo: this meeting has gone on for 3 hours... editorial has the last issue.... 2 minute warning for current topic.

Kurshie Muromachi: Agreed, good work indeed. Not something I would pay for though.

Jake Reitveld: k

Jeffrey Gomez: If it were me, I'd axe teleports altogether and make everyone walk, but it doesn't work that way. =P

Prokofy Neva: how do you know where Aimee's store is? until her greetes and Lindens and mentors and stuff usher you out there with a TP and tell you?

ReallyRick Metropolitan: Does that mean then LL should charge is someone TP's you right to them cause you now have avoided the hubs and roam all together?

Armath Severine: Hmm. For a second here, Play the curious one. Suppose you have point to point ability... You land your avi right in some couple's bedroom while it is "occupied"

Prokofy Neva: you don't find it by going to a tetlehub

Armath Severine: Woo. Fun.

Prokofy Neva: that's how the whole boutique system is set up in here

Jake Reitveld: The find fucntion. And advertsing.

Cocoanut Koala: good question, really rick

Prokofy Neva: Jake I dare you to type in "little black dress" in the FIND engine and find one

Aimee Weber: But I am still curious about my original question. If a talented scripter managed to perfectly simulate p2p without Lindens changing anything, and handed this item out for free, would the pro-telehub folks accept it, or advocate disabling it?

Prokofy Neva: go ahead

Prokofy Neva: I wno't even mention the Unmentionablese

Jeffrey Gomez: Yar. I do so hate these hiccups in my internet.

Teeny Leviathan: Landing in the wrong place via P@P is just operator error.

Ellie Edo: with reagrd to getting stuck in buildings, how about going phantom above a certain ht and speed?

Lordfly Digeridoo: TIME. Wrap up discussion for this issue.

Jake Reitveld: Sure but I can find womens fashion apelnty.

Kurshie Muromachi: Hank Romos already put up a hyperteleporter open-source.

Kurshie Muromachi: Ramos*

Jeffrey Gomez pulls out the Glad-Wrap

Lordfly Digeridoo: Editorial Hare has the last issue.

Jake Reitveld: Cori is the one to ask on this, she shops more than me.

Prokofy Neva: oh is he making the news now or covering it?

Lordfly Digeridoo: not my call, prok.

Lordfly Digeridoo: Take it away, Editorial.

Armath Severine: Operator error? So lets all give folks the ability to walk through prims. And them give their people the ability to ealk into bank vaults and hotel suites.

Ellie Edo: i made such for myself b4 they plugged the exploit and it worked great - one objection to telehubs gone

Mulch Ennui: both apparently

Jeffrey Gomez: Neither. He added his name to the queue.

ReallyRick Metropolitan: 50% of the time I fly somewhere 50% of the time I am TP'ed in...

Jeffrey Gomez: Go ahead EH.

Lordfly Digeridoo: folks PLEASE give Editorial the floor.

Mulch Ennui: so much for objectivity

Editorial Hare: I want to say first of all thank you all so much for your impressive response to the hypocrisy thread.

Editorial Hare: I'm greatly heartened that people rose up with such a positive reaction.

Prokofy Neva: Jeffrey: there is covering or making news, not "neither" when a journo is involved

Editorial Hare: When special interests get the ear of those in charge in secret its never good for the masses.

Prokofy Neva: I didn't

Prokofy Neva: but I"m censored

Lordfly Digeridoo: prok, please.

Editorial Hare: A similar situation occurred a year and a half ago, when Editorial Hare was created.

Prokofy Neva: We are not special interests but your interests, you'll figure it out

Editorial Hare: I represent something close to this group, a way join the voices of many into a unified response to injustice.

Prokofy Neva: we didn't even ask for telehubs geez but asked for the code of conduct

Prokofy Neva: bleh

Editorial Hare: Sadly at that time, and to this day, speaking up on the forums has not elicited a positive response.

Lordfly Digeridoo: editorial has the floor....

Prokofy Neva: soapboxing journalist

Shaun Altman: Editorial: Unfortunately we're in a PG sim or I'd have something to say to you about publishing nonsense like "secret meetings" while knowing better.

Armath Severine: With all due respect, Prok, you know you are SL's most entertaining windbag. Don't ever change ^_^

Jeffrey Gomez: It's times like these that I must remark, if you wish to not listen to Prok, there is a Mute feature.

Editorial Hare: There really is no way to make a statement without angering someone.

Editorial Hare: And up till now the forum has been the only real method to try to communicate your ideas to a large number of people.

Mulch Ennui: o i assume all the persoanl attacks was what youy consider a positive response, huh editorial? i submit you are a hypocrite in light of your alt discalimer

Editorial Hare: Hopefully lobbying groups like this one, unbiased and democratic, can accomplish what i never was able to do effectively, to fix glaring issues in our community when a single voice is unheard.

Prokofy Neva: Yeah me too Shaun

Editorial Hare: My plea is that no matter how hard it gets, the controversy created, stick with i

Cocoanut Koala: I object!!!!!!!

Editorial Hare: Keep the money from controlling Second Life.

Jeffrey Gomez: As do I.

Prokofy Neva: Anonymous INformant should be your alt's name

Editorial Hare: Keep the tyrants out of power.

Prokofy Neva: Yes like Editorial Hares

Editorial Hare: Make Linden Lab finally take action on our issues.

Editorial Hare: Move us all toward the Metaverse and away from the brink.

Prokofy Neva: Yes that's what WE started doing duh

Mulch Ennui: readl editorials alt disclaimer about being afraid of the forum crowd and then read his version of ositive reaction" hypocrite

Lordfly Digeridoo: i don't see the problem of editorial posting the logs...

Shaun Altman: Editorial: *yawn*

Jeffrey Gomez: EH, while you cover the issue at this time, you make a case that might make a hypocrite of yourself. Be very careful.

Prokofy Neva: I don't either

Editorial Hare: <end>

ReallyRick Metropolitan has no idea who Editorial is or who he works for

Prokofy Neva: I see him very tententiously representing the resposnse tho

Shaun Altman: Lordfly: I don't either, its just lying about the meeting that I take issue with.

Mulch Ennui: you sir are a hypocrite (or madame)

Lordfly Digeridoo: I'll yield 5 minutes for comments, and then adjourn the meeting.

Prokofy Neva: when he comes clean with his main then I can respect his journalism

Cocoanut Koala: How is it you get to decide which lobbying group is good and which is bad, Editorial People?

Prokofy Neva: this is repulsive posturing

Jeffrey Gomez: Statements to the effect of "stick with me" *are* the issue that we need to escape.

Shaun Altman: I didn't say anything at that NON-secret meeting that I minded showing up on the forum.

Prokofy Neva: yes Editorial Lindens

Cocoanut Koala: And as I recall, I HATED that thread

Prokofy Neva: state's informors

Cocoanut Koala: and about 50 things people reported in it.

Prokofy Neva: yep

Prokofy Neva: absoluetly

Mulch Ennui: when it happens to you, you create an alt and hide (forum harassment) when it happens to those you don't like, it is a "possitive reaction"

Jeffrey Gomez: Blind leader worship is, by the way, the biggest problem evar.

Prokofy Neva: it was nasty, tendentious, and filled with fake crap

Cocoanut Koala: Who are you to say this group I'm in is more legitimate than the other groups I may be in?????

Ellie Edo: .

Ellie Edo: cant he speak please?

Prokofy Neva: Totally

Cocoanut Koala: In vact, WHO ARE YOU?

Ellie Edo: thank you editorial hare

Prokofy Neva: what Coco said

Mulch Ennui: if you fail to catch your fatal flaw lord help all those that listen to u

Prokofy Neva: WHO ARE YOU???

Cocoanut Koala: i think he was done, ellie

Lordfly Digeridoo: keep it civil, please...

Editorial Hare: yes I am done

Nolan Nash: I think most ppl read the log, and decided for themselves, Editorial's opinion (his name is EDITORIAL afterall) had nothing to do with my interpretation

Prokofy Neva: Since when is playing the role of the FBI's informers in a dissenter's meeting journalism?

Shaun Altman: Coco, Prokofy: he is an alt, a coward and a liar.

Mulch Ennui: no, read editorials reason for being, forum harrassment. anonymity, no attachment to his views. then look at what he terms positive reactin

Jeffrey Gomez: Rather, I think the point we should take away from this is that we're all in this together, and should be masters of our own destiny.

Prokofy Neva: what Shaun said

Mulch Ennui: hypocrite

Ellie Edo: you know, i think your firstb group, in meeting Philip, and editoreil in opening it to our gaze, BOTH did us a big service

Jeffrey Gomez: As controdictory as that phrase may sound.

Jeffrey Gomez: Contra*

Cocoanut Koala: Yes, Jeffrey, in whatever groups we chooose to

Prokofy Neva: tendtentiously misrepresenting things said on the fly like the bit about the NDA as our group opsition

Prokofy Neva: NOT

Prokofy Neva: NOT

Cocoanut Koala: exercise that in!

Prokofy Neva: that's not journalism it's sensational politicking

Jeffrey Gomez: Like I said Prok.

Jeffrey Gomez: No undue emphasis.

Shaun Altman: I have since left that group myself, but I did it based on facts and personal convictions, not some lies posted in a forum by a cowardly alt.

Cocoanut Koala: Thank you, Ellie!

Prokofy Neva: Totally

Jeffrey Gomez: That'll happen by itself in the forums, anyway. =P

Ellie Edo: i remember his atrter post as not much more than a chat log ?.....

Lordfly Digeridoo: 3 minute warning...

Cocoanut Koala: Note that we are all sitting HERE relatively harmoniously, despite our differences or our other groups!

Prokofy Neva: Like the forums are a legitimate outlet anyway?

Mulch Ennui: editorial wants things open yet he hides in an alt to protect himself from his opinion. makes an alt to protect himself from forum harassment, then calls the harassment of others a positive reaction. hypocrite

Prokofy Neva: at least have the courage and integrity to put it on an independent blog

Mulch Ennui: make sure this is included in your report hypocrite

Blueman Steele: guys I can't live this lie anymore.. I'm acutally a Linden

Nolan Nash: Well, i thgink i will take my leave now that its turned into a repetive namecalling fest

Jeffrey Gomez: Prok on forums: Indeed.

Prokofy Neva: hypocrite

Nolan Nash: everyone have a good nite, thanks LF!

Prokofy Neva: liar an coweard

Jeffrey Gomez: But they are one of the only ones we have that works.

Prokofy Neva: for shame

Jeffrey Gomez: ...

Jake Reitveld: You too Nolan.

Jeffrey Gomez: Bye, Nolan.

Nolan Nash: bye Jake and thanks to all

Mulch Ennui: this is why i am biased by press, they hide their affairs and do their "duty" reporting on others

Ellie Edo: im sorry - alts are ok and not hypocrisy - somrtimes they have value

Shaun Altman: nite Nolan

Memory Harker: Oh dear.

Mulch Ennui: hypocrite

Blueman Steele: g'night all.. I'll get this right to Philip when I see him

Memory Harker: Oh my.

Prokofy Neva: Negrate Hare while the negarting is good

Cocoanut Koala: lol

Memory Harker: Oh goodness me.

Cocoanut Koala: i dont negrate.

Prokofy Neva: Alts are valid, not hypocrisy using them *cough* Ellie

Lordfly Digeridoo: ONE MINUTE LEFT

Jeffrey Gomez: Yes, let's all go ahead and grief while we can grief with negrates, shall we?

Prokofy Neva: I'll chalk that one up to living in the land of Oz tho

Jeffrey Gomez: EH is entitled to his opinion.

Armath Severine: Geeze. This is hilarious. All of it. From so many folks who say this is just a game... Some of you seem awfully worked up over this.

Jeffrey Gomez: As are you all.

Prokofy Neva: Um no expressing my elgitimate voice of opinoi?

Euterpe Roo: Oooh. Can I have one?

Shaun Altman: I don't give many neg rates, and that alt isn't WORTH one

Jeffrey Gomez: As are those not in attendance.

Prokofy Neva: before the man shuts it down?

Cocoanut Koala: Yes, and I want to make MY objection to his opinion clear

Blueman Steele: who should we neg rate jeff?

Mulch Ennui: he aint worth my paltry 75 lindens to negrate. he is a hypocrite and will have to live knowing that

Ellie Edo: Can I ask - WHICH FORUM WILL THIS ALL BE IN ? SHOULD WE CREATE A GROUP ONE ????

Euterpe Roo: Not a shirt--a neg rate.

Cocoanut Koala: PARTICULARLY since he presents himself as some sort of unbiased reporter.

Jeffrey Gomez: Go right ahead and neg rate me if it floats your boat.

Blueman Steele: but this udner general or entertainment

Lordfly Digeridoo: ellie: General Forum

Armath Severine: I'll hook you up, Euterpe

Prokofy Neva: I'm happy to pay anyone $75 to neg the coward

Jeffrey Gomez: The point is it's an ineffective system.

Lordfly Digeridoo: TIME! ISSUE TIME HAS EXPIRED

Prokofy Neva: Hypocrisy didn't tho

Lordfly Digeridoo: I table this discussion and give the floor to me for a few parting words.

Mulch Ennui: an alt he created because OF PERSOANL ATTACKS ON FORUMS. then he calls persoanl attacks agains MJW a POSITIVE REACTION. who fails to understand the problem?

Memory Harker is quite content to negrate herself, ty all. Damn, now where did those new batteries go?

Prokofy Neva: For shame thinking he represents "the voice of the people" bleh

Prokofy Neva: I'm the people too!

Ellie Edo: Aernt negrates about to disappear anyway?

Jeffrey Gomez: Thank you. LF?

Cocoanut Koala: let's let lf talk.

Blueman Steele gives all attention to lordfly and mutes all "chatters"

Armath Severine: Prok...

Lordfly Digeridoo: Please, let me speak to end this...

Bruno Buckenburger: LOL< let's all share a Coke. Such harmony. SL will be a better place with such discourse. I feel I was a part of Crossfire.

Armath Severine: You are not People.. you are Person.

Ellie Edo: LF -

Armath Severine: Not everyone is going to agree with you.

Armath Severine: Or me for that matter

Prokofy Neva: It's a quotation from Dr. Zhivago Armath

Ellie Edo: LF -

Lordfly Digeridoo: Okay, first, I'd like to thank you all for coming to this first meeting. I apologize for the fits and starts, and the impromptu juggling of duties and the queue system.

Memory Harker has a quotation for you, Prokofy.

Jeffrey Gomez: Oh! Hey Armath! Didn't see you show up.

Mulch Ennui: speak hypocrite, defend your posiotion, we know you wont do it on forums. how is your personal attacks different then ours? how is your hiding behind an alt when we do things (like have meetings) on our mains more noble

Armath Severine: Sorry... I'm young still. I only get Soylent references.

Mulch Ennui: report that hypocritre

Euterpe Roo: Pasternak aside, Prokofy, I think Armath has a point.

Shaun Altman: THAT ALT ISN'T WORTH YOUR TIME! LET LORDFLY TALK!

Lordfly Digeridoo: Secondly.... as I said, this log WILL go into the forums, on my server, and emailed to the lindens. The lindens will also get a briefed, collated "bullet points" of what was discussed.

Prokofy Neva: DOn't leave out the round condemnation fo Editoral Hare polease

Mulch Ennui: sorry, i wanted my critiques of this muckraker on record, im done wasting my fingers on hypocrite trash

Lordfly Digeridoo: Later in the week they have agreed to meet with us with a discussion on what was talked about tonight.

Ellie Edo: not round - i commend him

Lordfly Digeridoo: Also, the group, Resident Action Committee, is open to all to join for free. Please do so if you are so inclined to support this.

Euterpe Roo: Thank you, Lordfly.

Jeffrey Gomez: But one comment.

Lordfly Digeridoo: Furthermore, the blue box next to me has a free RAC shirt. Grab it as you wish.

Jeffrey Gomez: The group should be discretionary.

Lordfly Digeridoo: (let me finish please

Jeffrey Gomez: Okay.

Jeffrey Gomez: Sorry.

Armath Severine: Uhoh... This is heating up. I phear Flame.

Jake Reitveld: Where you going Cori?

Lordfly Digeridoo: finally, I'd like to remind everyone that EVERYONE has an equal say in these discussions. There can be no special rules for self-appointed journalists, ninjas, lindens, pirates, prima donnas, and what have you. We are ALL equal shareholders in this world

Armath Severine: Despite my sword... I ahve seen... Trolls are not immaginary.

Memory Harker: Word.

Lordfly Digeridoo: Again, I'd like to thank you all for coming. The next meeting will be announced ASAP, when the lindens reply.

Jeffrey Gomez: Arrr.

Lordfly Digeridoo: And with that, I adjourn the meeting.

OK, where do i begin?

I think i need a new thread to say what I want, as this meeting was mostly positive and worthwhile, and I don't want to cloud that with any "Editorials".

Lordfly, good job holding it together. I thought you took it too lightly, but even if you did you certainly rose to the occasion.

I do hope you kept the bottle of Excedrin handy.

The problem of voice of the people is people all speak in different tones. Thats why bands arent made up of anyone who wants in, just those that can carry a given tune.

If you can unify the voices (which more or less you did to some extent) I applaud you and more power to you.

Good luck with the group, I will follow your progress =)

I stopped reading the log when Hiro's comments about who was in charge was repetitive and interruptive.

Can anyone summarize what subjects were brought up at the meeting, what the pro's and con's were of each subject and how they were discussed?

The raw unedited text was offered so as no voice would be left out, but a summary (now that the full text is posted) would be very useful.

The issues is (and the reason why a summary was not posted first) was that it was worried that a bias would be introduced.

However...

Here is my attempt to summarize the 3 hours.

------------
Opening
-----------
Lordfly Digeridoo: welcome to the first Resident Action Committee meeting. this is half of a reaction to the other semi-poltiical groups going on in world right now, and a fermenting of my own ideas... the rules, and eventual breakdown of the process, is follows:


1) Everyone will have an equal voice during this discussion. There will be no officers, no official spokesmen, none of that political brouhaha. from time to time, folks can request a few moments of quasi-silence (like i did) to speak a longer line of unbroken thoughts i request that you all respect those requests.

2) at the conclusion of this meeting (whenever that is), the log will be collected, and posted to 1) the forums, and 2) my website.

3) the log will be scanned over, and the main points that were brought up will be filtered down into bullet points. These will then be mailed off to Robin and Philip Linden for their readings. Later in the week, they'll meet with the residents again for another open-ended discussion.

With luck, this process will repeat ad nauseum into infinity, or the heat death of the universe, whichever comes first.


as for topics to discuss: anything relating to SL as a whole is fair game... be it technical problems that you feel should be addressed, or economic ideas, or social problems, or what have you.


Finally, I'd like to thank you all for coming, and hope that we will respct each other during this meeting's proceedings.


Lordfly Digeridoo: I will now open the floor.

The first issue opened was to decide how the meeting would go forward.

There was much debate on this and resulted in no less than 20 minutes of wasted time. It was stated quite openly that this would be an "open" forum with little or no rules, but the issue of when to let who talk got crazy enough to inspire someone to leave.

After that I was asked to speak and said....

Blueman Steele: I wanted to bring up the disconnection between the voting systme in place and the issues and bugs being delt with. we currently have a voting styem that encourages a "priority list" order to solving bugs. At the very top, for example.. is havok 2. so meanwhile your 10 votes are "locked" into issues that are getting passed over. So to end my point...we are given a voting system which has no connection to what actulaly gets prioritezed as our "votes" are locked into those issues. So how will we handle 1.7>?

The discussion included...

1. Agreement that the current voting system was in bad shape
2. Suggestion that users should review existing proposals before suggesting new ones.
3. Many proposals where literal jokes.
4. One of the only passed proposals was based on a joke
5. A system of triage was needed to determine priority
6. "Bad" suggestions should be thrown out (no agreement on how this should be judged or executed)
7. "Accepted" proposals not going into development
8. The separation of bugs from feature priorities

Mostly the lack of turnover and dead issues was the biggest concerns.

Next up, Drift said...

Drift Monde: I would like to see the issues of Permissions fixed that give us Texture creators the same protections as the other content creators.. and I speak for all Texture Creators..

Discussion included...

1. "Copy, Modify, and Transfer" don't work when someone has a UUID.
2. builders them, but then need them transferrable
3. Permissions in general have issues, Texures are just one component
4. Discussion of old solutions that "broke" several wanted features
5. General agreement on the need for a revamp
6. If a person's real ID was needed to protect their digital work
7. corporate ninjas
8. Ideas and design vs. "Data"

You deserve a medal for not using the eject button repeadedly... I've had to take breaks reading it to avoid the urge to push my fist through my skull...

Prokofy Neva: offered the following

Prokofy Neva: In our last meetingwith the Lindens, we asked for and obtained an agreement to get a code of conduct from them -- extracts from their own employee manual -- which I suspect is deficient precisely in the area of how to minimize conflict of interest on matters like endorsemnt of resident businesses, participation of resident events, giving bids to residents from banks on secret sims and all the rest. But let's take them on good faith.

We do eed to get this and I do hope you will as for folloow up in your meeting withPhil. When we can stablish what thir rules are for engagement, we can undersstand better how to next address the problem of their ruination of resident business as happened with GOM because we'd learn whether it is ok to have side secret negotations with any resident business with an aim to takeit over or give stock options or whether that is a conflict of interest.

I'm seriously reading up on Robert's rules...

BTW... this meeting was not at a time convenient for our European audience. Do you think a second meeting should from or that the meeting time be moved?

I had to stop reading I'm worried I might start self harming..

It seemed to develop some order though and I think a euro time friendly meeting would be great.. Damn these infernal time zones.. I'd try and attend.. But I can't garentee I won't run out screaming with my fingers in my ears..

I was able to be present last night for the entire meeting (well, not counting bathroom breaks ). I believe that Lordfly had the proceedings well in hand--considering the size and scope of this particular meeting.

Some suggestions for the future:

1. Condsider setting an agenda prior to the next meeting (this has, I know, was the purpose of the first meeting, but, for subsequent meetings the 'speaker queue' can be set on a first-come, first-served basis by the submission of notecards containing the proposed topic and a general sketch of points to the meeting's secretary prior to an announced deadline).

2. Time limits should be enforced. While discussion is crucial and dissension more so, three hours is tough on the spirit.

3. The allowance of proxies. If an issue or opinion is to be represented by a proxy, it should be announced at the outset of the meeting. Proxies would allow some scheduling flexibility.

If you feel it is helpful, I will write these out on a notecard and submit my name for the queue for the next general meeting.

Thank you Lordfly for this meeting, and thank you Blueman for colorizing the text.

I'll need my entire Labor Day to read all that text!

Seriously, things seemed to go well after the ridiculous discussion over who would be in charge, whether there are officers and who could "let" someone speak in the meeting.

I was not available to attend and, that said, strongly suggest

1) second meeting time,
2) short agenda, just to get it going and create feeling of order - very short recap of last meeting, things carried over to discuss, etc
3) a forum thread with only topic suggestions (no comments), so people can have an idea of what others are thinking prior to the meeting, hopefully leading to more thought provoking input from people who might not have had a particular issue in their head prior to meeting
4) second meeting time.

Overall, though I haven't waded through the whole thing yet, nice first attempt.

You know, I was thinking the same. The person causing the most dis-order at the meeting from the log appeared to be the person making such a big thing about wanting order. How ironic! Then he left and it looks like the proceedings carried on pretty orderly after that.

Thanks for posting the chat logs, very interesting.

There was an additional topic about "Communication" whether it being the community and/or Linden Labs based. I think this "open discussion" makes for a good example of the "Communication" system from certain perspectives. I find three most important areas regarding communications:

1. Linden Labs and its support system. How well does Linden Labs and its support system support the Second Life community? How could they improve?

2. The community. How could we bring the community closer together or help them find areas of interests more effectively? What about more defined user groups or some kind of lobbying system?

3. User Interface based and information systems. How well does Second Life User Interface communicate to people? How could it be improved to provide and communicate information more effectively? What about the recent addition of InfoNet and where do you think it stands for improving the system?

Any more areas to elaborate for "Communications"?