what a person means isn't just in the words they write.
words by and in and of themselves do not mean anything.
they mean things because people agree that they mean something.
but the meaning of a word (even by agreement) is fluid. that is to say words permit a lot of variation in meaning form person to person.
thus it is important to know what kind of person a person is, so you can figure out what that person means when they say something.
thus, when someone says they are "never offensive", but everyone else thinks they are... then they are using "never offensive" in an individualistic and idiosyncratic way.
or there are the people who go around saying "i'm soooo humble" uh... if you're so humble, why are you bragging about it?
similarly when, someone uses the word "tact" and goes about saying how tactless everyone else is, then that calls into question whether or not that person understand tact as most people understand tact.
* * *
i find the whole "address the topic not the person" moderation thing to be hokey.
understanding the person helps understand what it is they are saying.
addressing the person is addressing the topic sometimes.
creating false dichotomies between what a person says and who a person is isn't that useful.
yes, sure there is a bit of automatic understanding just because people use the same language, but the finer points can be lost without understanding who you are talking to.
Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive
These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
what a person means |
|
|
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
|
06-20-2005 17:55
_____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
|
|
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
|
06-20-2005 18:02
I belive it's simply an overstated "don't devolve arguments into ad-hominem" rule. Surely (I hate that word) we can call into question motives and source if it really is germaine to the argument, for the very reasons you state. When discussing somethnig like community or politics at any level, you pretty much have to know the person to understand thier view - again, as you've stated, and as I'm certain the Lindens know.
Unless someone can imagine a situation where calling a person a doodiehead is part of a successful argument.  _____________________
|
|
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
|
06-20-2005 18:06
I belive it's simply an overstated "don't devolve arguments into ad-hominem" rule. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
|
|
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
|
06-20-2005 19:03
I agree with both of you. I think the problems will come from people using an interpretation of the guideline that's overly literal and freaking out because someone calls another person's motive into question while trying to understand what they're on about.
_____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
|
Ariaruil Stygian
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 27
|
06-20-2005 19:07
One can NEVER EVER absolutely for sure know another's motivation.
End of story. |
|
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
|
06-20-2005 19:13
I agree with both of you. I think the problems will come from people using an interpretation of the guideline that's overly literal and freaking out because someone calls another person's motive into question while trying to understand what they're on about. People need to learn the difference between Infer and Imply. What I infer from someone's post may be completely different than what they're trying to imply. I may report someone for what I assume they're saying, when that isn't what they meant at all. It's on the Lindens and forum mods to try and seperate the two and decide which they believe to be correct. I don't believe having all these threads about the same thing going at once will change that one bit. _____________________
Little Rebel Designs
Gallinas |
|
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
|
06-20-2005 20:29
I posted this once before, but this seems quite relevant to this post......
Check out: The Johari Window Basically - (and I may be oversimplifying) - There are 4 elements to communication. Two of them relevant here, are: "what we are attempting to communicate" - and "what the listener (reader) perceives as being communicated." At the end of the day, according to the "Johari Window" theory, it's what is perceived as being communicated that matters. No matter how correct I am in my viewpoint, if my listener misinterprets what I'm saying - what they perceived me communicating is what I said (from their POV as the person I'm trying to communicate with). Not only do I need to be clear in what I speak - but to communicate effectively, I must consider how the listener/reader will interpret what I'm saying in my dialog. _____________________
------------------
The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world. |
|
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
|
06-20-2005 20:31
I oughta damn well report you for this, StoneSelf.
coco |
|
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
|
06-20-2005 21:06
I oughta damn well report you for this, StoneSelf. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
|
|
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
|
06-20-2005 21:28
it's not all about you. no, cocoa makes everything about her... i don't really get why a disagreeing post sends her off into a tizzy but c'est la vie. forums are doing a lot of strange navel gazing right now lol... |
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
06-20-2005 21:31
Heh heh yeah it's pertty wild stuff.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
|
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
|
06-20-2005 21:32
I agree with both of you. I think the problems will come from people using an interpretation of the guideline that's overly literal and freaking out because someone calls another person's motive into question while trying to understand what they're on about. Chip, I agree that the forum guidelines are being applied too literally. I'd like to see folks (especially moderators) also take into account intent and context. Finally, I'd love to see a little consistency as well. If everyone got a formal warning for the benign post I made, this forum wouldn't be the loverly place we all know it as.  ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
|
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
06-20-2005 21:33
I disagree. I think forcing people to be more indirect and subtle makes the place much more clever and complex, therefore far more interesting.
Plus, we really shouldn't be talking about each other anyways. This is the general forum of secondlife, not the general forum of interpersonal opinions. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
|
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
|
06-20-2005 21:40
One can NEVER EVER absolutely for sure know another's motivation. if the goal is absolute understanding, then we must all admit defeat. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
|
|
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
|
06-20-2005 21:41
I disagree. I think forcing people to be more indirect and subtle makes the place much more clever and complex, therefore far more interesting. Plus, we really shouldn't be talking about each other anyways. This is the general forum of secondlife, not the general forum of interpersonal opinions. I disagree, we don't need more clever posting. That's what led us into the whole ToS skirting mess to begin with. By the way, do you have Torley's permission to use that forum avatar? _____________________
“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
|
|
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
|
06-20-2005 21:45
By the way, do you have Torley's permission to use that forum avatar? That's what I was wondering. _____________________
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags? |
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
06-20-2005 21:46
Well, I think it's fair to understand the person to give you heuristics to appropiately address the issues in questions, but there is still no reason to address the person individually.
I mean, saying "You are a troll" is not going to bring greater understanding of the person behind the ideas. It's just a bit of ad hominem. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
06-20-2005 21:48
By the way, do you have Torley's permission to use that forum avatar? Weird. Must be a forum glitch. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
|
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
|
06-20-2005 22:17
Weird. Must be a forum glitch. Interesting. Well, at any rate, it's still on your forum profile where it says "blaze Spinnaker's picture", in the upper right. _____________________
“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
|
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
06-20-2005 22:23
Weird!
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
|
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
|
06-21-2005 00:05
"similarly when, someone uses the word "tact" and goes about saying how tactless everyone else is, then that calls into question whether or not that person understand tact as most people understand tact."
My foot it's not about me. See thread below. And I NEVER DID THAT. coco |
|
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
|
06-21-2005 00:07
My foot it's not about me. See thread below. And I NEVER DID THAT. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
|
|
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
|
06-21-2005 00:12
I like that, SelfStone! I'll go with that.
coco P.S. And, um . . . the post seems a bit different from when I first read it. More things added, or something. |
|
Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
|
06-21-2005 00:14
Ulrika
If everyone got a formal warning for the benign post I made, this forum wouldn't be the loverly place we all know it as. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously not so benign since it resulted in a warning. Alexa |
|
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
|
06-21-2005 07:16
Obviously not so benign since it resulted in a warning. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
|