Billboards Revisited?

I know... I'm a little late for this discussion or maybe this discussion will never die as long as the billboards live. At any rate, I wanted to put in my 2 cents although I'm sure it will be met with total disregard by the owner and creator. One morning I was flying around and was summoned over to a newly constructed billboard by Si Money, whom I had never met or talked to before. He was there with Angel Leviathon. I was polite and said hello. He asked me if I would give him my opinion on the billboards. Since I think they do not beautify the area or even advertise a very worthy store, and since I can be brutally honest, I told him I didn't like them. When Si asked me why not, I nicely explained they were too big and did nothing to enhance the surroundings. He even pretended to care by asking me what could be done to change how I felt about them, and one of the things I told him was to make them smaller. He told me that was impossible and that customers were paying for the signs exactly the way they were. He acted personally offended and even stated that he was offended that I could dare tell him that I didn't like the signs. If he didn't want to know, then why did he stop me and ask me my opinion?

Some of you know that I then put up a sign with flowers on a piece of property right in front of his billboard because I also have freedom of expression and freedom of choice about what I look at. I also wanted to take a picture of Shadow Weaver's castle and dragon and I could see the billboard in the background which didn't enhance the picture. After I put up my signs, I came back online the next morning to find that Si had purchased a 4' wide strip of property completely surrounding my property and erected 20' walls closing my property in. After I sent an abuse report and also removed my sign from blocking his billboard, the walls were taken down and the property was released.

I don't know how to fight this fight, but it seems that the people responsible for the billboards are not willing to compromise at all. Even if they ask for an opinion, they act like they really don't care what people think, so I don't know why they ask in the first place. I will also boycott the one poorly stocked store that the billboard is advertising and I will suggest that people not shop there since the owner doesn't care how we feel about the way he advertises for his store.

Have a great day all and see you in SL!

Sunnee Beach

I'm sorry you feel this way. I was never offended nor did I indicate anything to the effect of 'how dare you tell me'. I welcome suggestions, but I offer openly at the beginning two things: 1) I will not remove them or "put them out in empty land". 2) The side of the advertising surface cannot be changed. Past that, i'm all ears. I've gotten many suggestions from people, and offers to help, but nothing which has ever come to any sort of fruitition. So the signs stay as you see.



As with all stories, they have a perspective. Let me add a few details you left out. Yes, you did exactly what you said, and after I moved the sign, you made another wall in front of where it was moved. I moved it again, once again, wall put in front of it. Moved it again, finally you built a wall to block every possible position I had for it, basically surrounding the property. This went on for a week, and after getting tired of it I did exactly this:

1) Bought land in the exact size of the land you had in front of the billboard around your buildings.
2) Copied the texture you were using on your own blocker in front of the billboard.
3) Erected a phantom-flagged blocker, exactly as yours, around your builds.
4) Notified the Lindens that they were more than welcome to remove any/all of these walls/land as soon as yours blocking our land/builds were also removed.



I'm very willing to compromise. Perhaps you should discuss it with other residents of the area if you believe to the contrary. Telling me to remove the sign or make it smaller are not a compromise, for reasons stated above, as they cannot be done.

If you say "they don't really care what people think", you're forming your own conclusions of us improperly and with no basis, anyone who knows me knows this to not be true.

Boycotting the store is your right, but I will inform you also it's not a very productive maneuver towards us, as we don't own the store, and the advertising has already been paid for long ago. Good luck to you in that front, however, as it is your right.

I admit that I am a rabid billboard hater. It has long been my policy not to use the products of those who advertise on billboards in real life. I have extended this policy to SL as well. Billboards are a blight upon the land, in both FL and SL. I think any economic advantges offered by them are far outweighed by the loss of our views of the landscapes, and other builds around us. Billboards are ugly. They rob us of our right to an unobstructed view, of the land, other buildings, and the next door neighbors...at night...through their windows. We should gather together, find rope and lynch the billboard builders. Hang them from the highest billboards in the land I say! Then set the billboards on fire, while they are slowly choking to death! We can watch them as they kick and shake their dangly little legs, bwa ha ha! DEATH! BLOOD! MAYHEM! ROWWWRRR..uhm, uh, sorry...uh...I think all the billboards should be taken down...uhm...yeah, thats what I think. And the floating flying talking billboards should be blasted from the sky. Uhm...ah...the end.

I like RL billboards.
In portugal billboards and other types of gigantic ads are often used to block people's view of uglier things, like long-abandoned, decaying buildings.
Besides, most ads have cute chicks in them... and since this isnt faux moralist america, some even have boobies =)

Sunnee,

Si has in the past offered to change the design of the billboard if someone would do the design for him. You're very talented. Why don't you design a Clementina-friendly billboard and submit it to Si and see what happens?

I meant to do that myself, but (1) I'm not very artistic and (2) I keep getting SL-sidetracked.

He says he's willing to consider ANY design, so let your imagination roam.

While it's not what we would consider the BEST solution (burning the darn things!), it's a move in the right direction and I think we should at least try to meet him halfway.

Maggie

Ok... I have only response to Si's e-mail which is to state that at NO TIME have I ever surrounded your billboard. I put 4 signs in front of it to block your billboard. I don't have enough money to purchase property completely surrounding your billboard so whoever did that was someone else, and perhaps you should have looked closer before you assumed that because I did one thing that I did everything.

Maggie, I have no interest in designing a Clementina friendly billboard. Since they are so large, I don't think any design would make it more attractive or less obtrusive in any way, and since it has been made clear that the billboard is staying, I will stay away from it and it's owners/designers etc.

Sunnee

What happened to the opt_out feature of the billboard? It worked for a while, but then stopped working. If it had been working, Sunnee could probably have taken her snapshot of Shadow Weaver's castle and dragon without the billboard in the background.

You don't have any right to an unobstructed view. I don't recall seeing that in the TOS anywhere. People really need to get over this incessant need to tell other people what they can and can't do on their own land. If someone had bought that same plot of land and erected a really hideously bad skyscraper would you react the same way? There's a million things in SL far uglier than the billboards. How would you feel if someone came up to you and said they hate your house and demanded you remove it? Would you think they were acting within their "rights"? Somehow I doubt it.

I think it's interesting that si's billboards get singled out for all this grief. Flying around the world I find them to be among the more attractive and realistic of the signs out there. The floating rotating signs are far worse! Not that I really want to see signs, unless I can land and find an actual shop or service that is being advertised.

"I think that I shall never see
a billboard lovely as a tree.
Perhaps, unless the billboards fall,
I'll never see a tree at all."

-Ogden Nash

If I could modify the billboards in any way, other then making them invisible or deleting them, I would make them phantom. I *hate* smashing into overly tall builds and unnecessessarry tall structures when auto-flying to a location.

Please make the billboards phantom. Please

Yes I would, and YES I did…..

When my home was in Federal, I was not very pleased with my surroundings, so I planted trees around MY property so I wouldn’t have to see what I considered ugly. However, by planting the trees, I failed to take into consideration the thoughts of my neighbors, who, in no uncertain terms, told me what they thought of my trees. I listened to their complaints, thought about what they had to say, and went back and deleted a few trees and made them all smaller. This still wasn’t good enough, my neighbors were still unhappy with my trees, so I packed up everything and moved to a new sim with surroundings I did like.

The moral to my story ??
Sooner or later you will realize that no one likes what you have done and will either move or delete it. I too think the billboards are ugly and have never stopped to read one, therefore I have no idea who they are advertising for, so you can add me to the list of boycotters.

Just a side note, how much were you paid to erect all these billboards and how long were you paid to keep them up ?? I can’t believe it was enough money to outweigh all this grief. However, I also understand you have a contract and can't just say "oh well, all deals are off". But you should be able to come to terms with the buyer of the billboards.

Si and Chip, I like both of you and try to keep these issues seperate from the individuals you are, but they are others who either can't or will not. For every one person who says the billboards are fine are 10 who hate them. Please think hard about getting rid of them.

Tracey

Thanks Tracey, and ditto. I'm on the opposite side of this issue from some of my favorite people in SL (and Sunnee is one of them) I don't hold it against them and as far as I know they don't hold it against me (at least I hope!). But what surprises me, since you dealt with grief over something you did on your own land that resulted in you basically being forced to pack up and leave, is that you don't see that it's wrong for people to try and bully others into conforming to their subjective standards. I've talked to neighbors that I wished weren't doing what they were doing and politely voiced my opinions, but it's up to them to decide to agree or not, and if they don't that's perfectly their right and I won't give them a hard time about it. It's not my right to do that, or anyone else's. Now if the billboards were attacking you, or following you, or lobbing bombs onto your house, or yelling insults at you by name, then by all means give em hell... but if it's just something that isn't quite to your aesthetic taste and is just standing there minding it's own business? I have complete empathy for how people who hate the billboards feel but it's just not worth getting so worked up over since they aren't breaking any rules.

Good post! I've also experienced several cases where a simple request of another builder was effective. Others draw a line in the sand and dare you to cross it. I think that is what we are dealing with here.

Every billboard I've checked has the same ad on it. I visited the place and there isn't much there. And not only is the store deserted, its on a relatively deserted sim as well. Anyone who is supporting this type of thing by buying from that store, rating the creators of this stuff positively, or simply ignoring it until it affects them directly are taking the wrong approach in my opinion. If you only complain about a billboard when it blocks YOUR view then prepare for SL to be filled with a lot of similar eye-sores. I had to buy a LOT more land than I would otherwise to try and keep my view from being blocked. If people were simply more cooperative VOLUNTARILY, then there would be no need to buy a "safety zone" around your builds.

We had another thread where this was being discussed and I suggested a MUCH better way to accomplish advertising without the billboards. The discussion ended there. I had my hope that this meant they were off busily implementing the alternative, but apparently not. Someone else will do it right eventually. For now the billboards are no more than an in-your-face challenge to the community to do something about it. So far the community has failed. As you say, its 10 to one against, but nobody is doing anything. Afraid of risking their own ratings they whisper among themselves and grumble to each other but don't dare confront the owners.

I hope they go to a rating system based on parcels. Click on any object in that parcel and rate it up or down. Take the owners cumulative positive and negative ratings and determine his/her rank that way. I think the billboards will disappear real quick that way. Until then, if you are afraid to downrate the builders, learn to live with the consequences. Talking about it in the forums not only won't change their minds, it probably floats their boat.

Garr, sorry about this, they will be.. Projects just got put on the back burner, etc etc, none of us have touched the billboards in a long time.

Lack of ability to store data in LSL scripts is what happened LSL is very unstable presently when doing things of this magnitude.

I can't figure out why, but the "running" flags on the scripts seems to vanish sporatically. I'm assuming it's a problem with the lists or such, but i've done debugging and everything is in order. It even went !Running once while I was sitting there staring at it reading debug output, wasn't looped, wasn't out of memory, no stack problems, just poof, no more running bit.

Head over to the tech forums and beg the Lindens to add notecard writing ability or the likes from scripts, because until I get something of the sort I just can't make it work properly for an extended period of time, as the list storage is buggy at best.

Can someone please tell me the difference between a billboard and any other structure that obstructs the view? Please. I really don't get it. Why aren't you all up in arms about high-rise buildings or towers or spinning 10 meter cubes? Or any of the other needlessly huge structures in SL? People are so irrational (and inconsistent) in what they choose to get bent out of shape over.

Depends on HOW it obstructs the view. In a city setting, towering building obstruct one another regularly and I would expect the same in SL.

At the beach there are RULES about obstructing other people view without permission. As we discussed elsewhere many places have RULES against billboards now.

My notion of what is good vs bad in 3D worlds is that (unless the world has a special purpose such as space simulation, moonscapes etc) things should pretty much look like they do in the real world. That means mountains and hills that don't shoot up at a 95 degree angle huge floating objects of any kind.

As Tracey pointed out, one would expect a certain degree of cooperation from people on this sort of thing. If 9 out of 10 people told me they hate what I build, REGARDLESS of what the voting booths say, I would think seriously about taking whatever it is down, just to be a good citizen. Anyone who behaves otherwise needs to offer a rationale for telling everyone else to get stuffed.

One argument has been that "well, billboards exist in the real world, so they should exist here". The two easy counter to that are: (1) Billboards don't exist where communities don't want them too. (2) Piles of cow shit exist in the real world (often very close to billboards in fact) but we don't all go around trying to make copies of them in SL.

So far I've seen about one poster who claimed they were actually helped to find a product to buy by any of the billboards. If they are making any money for the owners I find it hard to imagine how. If it actually brings people to that ONE store being advertised they must all be going over there when I'm offline.

There are better ways to get the word out about products. If I want to buy a telescope I look up sources on the Internet or maybe check the yellow pages. I don't hop in my car and drive around looking for billboards featuring telescopes. Tell me, what specific products are being advertised on the billboards in SL?

The arguments for them don't hold up. This is a line in the sand thing. I built it, you can't stop me. The thinking doesn't go much beyond that I'm sure. I'll keep trying to reason with people over this. But I don't think it has anything to do with reason from the other side.

This is NOT an abuse issue however. I wouldn't expect the Lindens to intervene in something like this that users ought to be able to work out among themselves. It is a good test of the ratings system though, and a pretty good indication that they don't work as intended. I may well be the only person in SL that has down-rated the owners of the signs. I haven't a clue why though.

You're not the only one.

Mac,
The fact that I alone want them there, as an owner, builder, paying member, etc alone is enough reason. There is no reason for justification beyond that. Do I justify it beyond that? Yes, it's a business. Should or do I have to? No.

I don't build these on other people's land, nor do I force them off their land or any other such tactics. The land is owned by us, maintained by us with the taxes we pay (as paying members of the game).

Your point about the ratings system is not quite correct. It does work rather well for situations like this. Because it gives you the power to disapprove, but not the power to remove. Can I strive for better ratings by removing the signs? Probably. Am I going to? No. I don't expect everyone in this game to like what I build. Quite frankly, I don't expect anyone to. I build for myself, noone else, that's all I need to satisfy.

Your statement about things in the 3d world being what you'd expect in the real world is rather silly. The entire PURPOSE of our 3d world is to create things which we can not do in the real world. Space ships, little green men, underwater forts, trampolines of un-imaginable power, ancient magics, dragons, faeries, floating skyscrapers. None of it is what you expect in the real world, otherwise we'd go do it in the real world.

Point being, you can boycott the stores, boycott the signs, negative rate me, tell me you dislike my builds, tell me you don't like my avatar, tell me you don't like my cologne, whatever. That's your right, you have opinions. Will the signs be gone one day? Maybe, who knows. Will I continue to build things which I like that other people disapprove of? Absolutely.

And before you go off on a 'you should be considerate' rant, I would like to point you to the world painted by a wonderful author in the novel Fahrenheit 451. It's a lovely fiction work which demonstrates the dangers of trying to appease people. Should one be civil to others? Absolutely. Should one destroy things that someone in the world dislikes? Absolutely not. That can only lead us down a path to bland, mind numbing, pointless existence. A world of vanilla nothing, which noone will like, nor dislike, because they will no longer think. The world has gone far enough in this path already, without our help. We don't need to push it along.

Too long a post? Here's the summary: You build what you like, I build what I like, we may dislike each other's work, and if you feel the need to tell me this fine, but don't expect me to act upon that opinion, as it is just that, your opinion, not mine.

He's a witch! Burn him!

Only if he weighs the same as a duck. Who wants to bild the scales?

Yep, that about sums it up... what we have here is a lynch mob. Mac, you said in an earlier post the following...




You're right. It is a line in the sand... a line that says that lynch mobs should not be allowed to force any player to do their bidding or conform to their subjective tastes.

You also said...



And if you allow players to form lynch mobs and expect people to bow to their whims then prepare for SL to be filled with overbearing cliques of arrogant people who somehow feel they have the right to tell someone else what to do when that person isn't breaking any rules. I'd rather have billboards. But I guess lynch mobs are okay until they're effecting you personally? I'm sure there are a lot of people who have no problem with the billboards who are afraid to speak out for fear of being on the receiving end of a boycott or other retaliation... and that's supposed to somehow be a good thing? The billboards are the lesser evil by a longshot. We don't need witch hunts in SL.

I'll speak up. I don't mind the billboards for a couple of reasons, but mostly because I don't want people telling me what I can and can't build. If this world is to work, simply apply some basic capitalistic force, don't shop at the store and if it really bugs you, down rate the builder.

If you are right in that no one likes them, then they will disappear. If you are wrong (or they do not bother people as much as you think they do), they'll stay up.

I don't want to be the one telling someone in no uncertain terms what they can or cannot build, for someday someone might try and tell me the same.

I dont necessarily like the billboards, but its something we have to live with until they go away, which my be never. There are a few builds I dont like, but I respect the right of the owner to build as they please as long as it is within the bounds of the TOS.

In RL, if you were to deface or cover a billboard and got caught, you would be charged with criminal vandalism. Its not fair to the owner of the billboards (or other "displeasing" builds) to have to fight off aggressors against their builds. You can always tell someone you dont like their build, but thats all you can do. You cant harrass to no end.

If someone told me they didnt like my builds, I would listen to them and then decide my course of action. None of us are obligated to please others, its a matter of choice.

This whole issue with the billboards boils down to one thing: Controlling what your neighbor does. It should not happen in SL, in any way shape or form. We all have equal right to be here, we all have equal right to build what we want. No one's rights are above another's, even if you happen to dislike what they're doing.

There is cooperation to think of. And it does work. We've seen it. I've seen themed communities work well together and builds that blend and aren't mis-matched. Outside of themes as well, I've seen people work together to create a general feel of an area. It is possible without being a theme.

However, if someone comes into the neighborhood and buys land and builds something that breaks that harmony, it is within their right. It may not be something anyone likes, but people shouldn't be allowed to tell them what they can and cannot build. As a previous poster said, if you allow that, it might be you next who's told that their build must go. You can suggest, offer help, and generally try to make them fit in, but you can't tell them 'no, you can't do that on your own land because we were here first.'

Back when I had my first build in Shipley/Stanford (I didn't know what I was doing, built over a sim line, go me! Or was it Stanford/Federal, or Shipley/Federal? Or maybe all three. I digress.) I had a basic cabin nearly touching my Mayan temple, and various other eyesores of Beta users who came and played for awhile and never returned. Did it disrupt the look of my temple? Hell yeah. Did I have the right to tell my neighbors that they couldn't put their noob cabin right up against their property line, nearly touching my build? No.

What Si and Rathe are doing is making a point. It's not about billboards, it's not about having contracts or advertising, it's saying that people shouldn't be able to pressure other people into doing what they want them to. For standing fast, I commend them. (For the record, I wouldn't want a billboard in my back yard either, sorry boys. And if one showed up in Darkwood, I would be unhappy. because maybe it could have been statues, or lighthouses, or just about anything that people could have protested.

The issue of billboards and their proper use in SL is a whole other issue seperate from the point Si and Rathe are making here. You shouldn't be able to pressure other people into doing what you want them to, be it by removing billboards or by tearing down an ugly cube with spinning textures that the creator thinks is brilliant. Land is private property, and like it or not, the folks have a right to do whatever they want with that property. (Within the terms of service, obviously)

Until we get 'zones' set up in SL, (ie, advertising free zones, commercial zones, residential zones) this will be the case.

We all have equal rights here, folks. We can voice our displeasure and say what we would like to see happen, but in the end, a billboard has as much right to exist as a castle. It doesn't mean we have to like it. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people should stop voicing their displeasure. Protest is healthy. Rage on, just don't expect people to cave even if it is the 'popular opinion'.