NYC Convention - who are the Europeans ?

Who is planning to come to the State of play and SL conventions in NYC from Europe ?

Don't look at me.

Not correct maybe - but I WANT but CANT! Sorry sorry

I don't want to be negative, but you have asked, so......

I would love to come. I have the resources, I could almost certainly find the time. I have visited extensively in the UX over the years.

BUT.......

I no longer feel your country is safe for me to visit.
I don't believe it honours hxman rights.
I don't believe I would be safe from wrxngful imprxsonment, or just disappearing from sight.
I no longer believe I can rely on a jxry of my peers if falsely accused, an open examination of any accusxtions.
I know it is now possible I may not even be infprmed of the cxse against me, or allowed to construct a dxfence.
I know I may be shipped off secretly to some other jurxsdiction, where txrture is extreme and routine.

Hysteria, you say, unless I have something to hide, which I don't, except perhaps posting things like this ?

Perhaps. Probably. But lightning does strike someone.

I just don't feel like putting myself into the power of such a regime, where they can do literally anything they like with me, without what I consider proper legal constraint. There are other countries about which I feel the same, but I never expected to put my friend and ally the UX into that category.

One more thing that makes the UX even worse than the others. To come, I now have to give your government my fingerprints. No-one has my fingerprints. I give them voluntarily to no-one, unless and until I am fairly suspected of a specific crime from which I need to be eliminated by comparison with a few specific prints, after which they should be erased.

The moment I give them at UX imxigration, they will be compared by computer with a huge worldwide mega-dxtabase. God knows who I might suddenly be suspected of being, and find myself whisked off to that special little room. I hear of people in exactly this situation who have struggled over weeks to disprove such suspicions, meanwhile suffering brutality, humiliation and deprivation, with their embxssy just shrugging shoulders.

And they will have my prints in the dxtabase forever. Doubtless there are regular scans, and if mine suddenly match some miscreant in ten years time, bingo, I can be picked off the street at home by my own authorities at any time. Never safe again - at the mercy of a computer mistake until I die.

And don't start me on fingerprints. The UX jxstice system is almost unique amongst western democracies in still being happy to incarcerate thousands on the "incontravertible" evidence of their fingerprint experts.

I am a scientist, I once worked on computerised fingerprint analysis, and I recently got up to speed with an in-depth internet survey, specifically because I was thinking of coming to the UX.

I was horrified. The "incontravertible" evidence is no such thing. There must be literally thousands of innocents languishing in cells right now, on the basis of the way it is currently used. In most states there is absolutely no defence against such an expert. Unless you are the rare defendant that can pay the earth, to summon up another expert of your own (probably from outside the UX) no-one will stand against him. They are all registered. Its a union. Everyone of them is perfect, there is no need for a second. So they can never, never disagree with each other.

Is it true ? What do double-blind trials tell us about the error-rates ?

Well, what do you know ?

The union bans any member from participating in such a trial on pain of expulsion and loss of livelihood. One small trial only sneaked through, and it showed the perfection to be a total myth. They'll make sure there never is another.

So there it is. Sadly, I ain't coming. Maybe even never again. I'm not in any "visually suspect" category. I have no record of crime, dxssenting activity, or even suspicion of such. I've never visited a dubious country. I've never mixed with dubious people. Though I do not support our governments present policies re overseas wxrs.

But I don't trust your justice, I don't think its agxnts would treat me with respect, and your totally flawed fictional belief in the infallibility of fingerprints is the final nail in the coffin, because a computer could accuse me, even at the point of entry, and the alleged "experts" who back it up are committing a fraud upon the populace that puts innocent people in jail every day.

It's just as well that I find americans, as individuals, and as far as any stereotype has validity, one of the most likeable, open, thoughtful and considerate groupings I have met anywhere. I probably like it because I am myself more extrovert than my compatriots.

In fact, I'm clinging to the hope that your good sense will soon reassert itself over all the propaganda designed to make you afraid, and therefore submissive, and that you will get yourselves back to somewhere your wonderful founders could be proud of again.

There are, of course, just a few little culturally-based "downsides" (in both directions I'm sure), but we'll keep those for another time.

Aren't you sorry you asked ?????????

THis was the best laugh I had all day.

So fundamentally Ellie, we're just like everybody else in the world. Actually, we always were. We just had y'all fooled for a while.

Happy to oblige. Enjoy........

hehe.. Don't feel bad Ellie. Those are some of the very reasons I won't visit a lot of other countries in this day and age.

Ok that's about as far as I'm gonna read. Where would you visit?

You could dissapear in a heartbeat in Jamaica and no one would know, but it's still one hell of a place to go on vacation. I want to encourage all you Europeans to come over, we are gonna have fun and New York will love you.

Oh. And in the original thread, Fizik's said he and company were coming. They are Euro too.

A lot of people are not going to list they are coming though, because they are going incognito. Meaning some are going to be there that will not say who they are in SL. Which I can respect! But I also know that is why there is not some long list of who all is coming posted somewhere. We are free to say ourselves if we are going or not, but the organizers won't be giving that info out.

You may be right, Khamon. It may be just me, slowly opening my eyes.

But I think there have been changes in the last few years - losses in freedoms which are genuine and to be lamented. Foreseen by rare genius like that of George Orwell.

The big question is (and I like big questions) - when we look back from the end of this century, will we see the 60's 70's and 80's of the twentieth century as a brief spurt of genuine hope for human harmony, a time when just for a moment we might actually have begun to put aside our distrusts and started to work together. On the environment, on poverty, etc etc.

Or will we see it as a period of even more extreme foolishness than ever by the population. A time when pschology and clever marketing had grown to the stage which the ordinary people began to drop their centuries old cynicism (which had always been emasculated by a serious lack of information) and actually believe the hype that things were improving and governments were getting more moral.

I really don't know.

I do know that such illusions (if that is what they are) are now being brutally butchered. That phase is at an end.

We are now locked in a deadly battle between two antagonists. Will the rate at which the internet is growing in the power to inform us of what is really going on be fast enough to outpace the corresponding growth in the power of governments to use media technology to intimidate, and silence us.

At present the governments are winning, but only just. And the New Orleans debacle may just possibly tip the scales a tiny fraction against one of them.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not a communist. Not even a socialist really. More of a capitalist with a human face. I just believe in the protections of the law, the rational assessment of risk, the correct attribution of cause and effect, the avoidance of strategies to frighten, deceive, and submissive-ise our populations, and respect and help for other peoples, within reasonable parameters akin to those you would use to protect your own family, and proportionate only to any genuine risk to which they (your family)might be exposed.

All these, in my opinion, our governments are currently violating. So - I am pretty cross.

Sorry guys. It's the wrong place for it isn't it ? It just triggered me because I've been thinking quite hard about whether to come or not.

I think the decider is the fxngerprints, and the uncertainty for the rest of my life. Otherwise I'd take my chances and risk it. Sanely I know its 50,000:1. But its having to know they are always there in that dxtabase, ticking like a bxxxb. And it all may yet get much, much worse.

Where would I visit, Satchmo? Lots of law abiding places, and even some others, so long as I don't get my fingerprxnts forcibly taken. Though I agree they diminish every day. Maybe soon I'll have to stay home.

No more, I promise, in this thread. Erase it all, Jeska, if you like.

Yay!

I am not alone in thinking these same things...
Three cheers for the worst Justice system and least-free country in the western world!

USA! USA! USA!

(followed quickly after by the UK though )

Everyone's entilted to their opinions. And I'll still like you. Even if I disagree to the opposite extreme.

I'm generally rendered rather speechless by this sort of thing. For that, everyone can be grateful, as it makes my responses brief.

coco

Awww!
Nice to know (both).

I think you have to be both an outsider (non-citizen), as well as be on the receiving end of some of the things the original poster referred to to really appreciate how much the US has changed though.

I mean would you come to Canada if you got fingerprinted at the border, and those fingerprints were kept on file forever so that if some crime is committed in Canada, you would be arrested in the US, transported up here, and thrown in jail for? For theoretically violating a law in a foreign country?

This stuff is actually happening right now.

Yay, Dianne. Its so nice to know I'm not alone, or a paranoid freak. But you're not very tactful, are you ? And I promised to shut up.......

Well I can't afford it so not me. I can't imagine anyone flying across the atlantic for a 1 day event - even if I had the money I wouldn't waste it on that - it seems really reckless.

Same here. I just haven't got the money for a trip like that, plus I'm scared of flying. If I can manage it, I want to make a journey by sea from the UK to Iceland to Canada and then maybe a look at NY. All depends on money - contributions gratefully received

Of course a gathering in the UK would be wonderful!

Sounds like a nice ideea.....UK are a lovely place to be in and easy to get to for us in Europa... ok better for some worse for some.. Ryan Air are flying from most countries to UK...

What Ellie said.

I would have possibly considered it, having previously been a regular traveller to the USA, but since your whole fucking country went nuts following 9/11, I'll pass on this and any other reason to come to the States in the future, thanks.

Ellie, I'm curious, what country are you from ?

I've just started a thread on having a European Convention.

BTW all people that fly.. all over the world are registrered by the airlines and al fact the have/get about us/you they must send further to some type of control authority in USA,,,

That are included the Scandinavian System Airlines .. SAS - to...

Read also this: http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

http://www.hrea.org/lists/huridocs-tech/markup/msg00339.html

Thank you, I haven't heard a blanket statement condemning everyone in my country all day! I'm glad you told me I went nuts, because I really had no idea. Please, could you do me the favor of telling me what country you are in so I can make blanket statements about every last one of the citizens there? Or am I not allowed to do that because I'm an American? I've noticed that it seems to be okay to say things like that about Americans, but saying such about any other country on the map seems to be rude for some reason.

Could someone tell me why this thread went from "who is coming from Europe" to "America sucks ass"? If I recall, the question was who is going to be there, not why you don't like the US.