If someone is selling you an island ATM, beware!!!

Actually, they're completely different things. In one circumstance, you have a transaction which was accidental. In the other, you have a fraudulent transaction. They are two distinct circumstances. If you'd like to use both examples to argue for the need for protection, feel free. However, I take issue with this statement:



The prior incident which you mention was absolutely not fraud in any conceivable sense of the word. The Lindens can certainly be proactive in matters of fraud while ignoring user error. It's actually a policy which most companies follow. My bank certainly isn't very benevolent when I accidentally overdraw my account, but they'll move heaven and hell if someone illegally obtains my debit card number.

This bears repeating (like some other posts in this thread!) and it's sad. I can't really take business in SL seriously after what happened, because to all outward appearances, LL doesn't take it seriously. I have sent correspondence to them about it, been asked to send an email, done so, and (so far) heard nothing back. Maybe that's because they have been advised not to talk about it, but in that case a simple "we've been advised not to talk about it right now" would let me know my inquiries don't go to the circular file. As it is, what am I supposed to think? I can only suspend judgement for so long.

If Linden Lab wants the outside world to regard Second Life as an environment suitable for real business, it needs to give us something other than "brief statement followed by total silence" when something like this happens. If they do not, those interested in business will evaluate the cost of business in SL as being too high for anything really worthwhile, and either involve themselves minimally or not at all.

For me, SL is a hobby. I had hoped that one day it would be big enough to be more than a hobby, but that seems unlikely given what has happened over the last two weeks. I hope this will change.

I'm confused why we're speculating so much here...

Schwanson?

Speculation surpassed Baseball as America's pastime in 1976.

If you "accidently" lose your bank card and someone uses it, you aren't repsonsible, the bank only holds you responsible for $50, even though you made the mistake and lost your bank card. It is the consumers job to pretect themselves and their personal information, just as it is in SL. Except in RL their are safeguards to protect people, even from themselves and in SL there are no safeguards whatsoever. So again, there is no protection in SL for the consumer at all.

I have heard of people getting their land back after accidentally putting it on sale. It seems like sometimes LL rules in favor of the person who made the mistake, and other times, in favor of the person who took advantage (that's kind of a loaded term but TBQH I think it's usually accurate) of that mistake.

I'll certainly agree that LL needs work in regards to their safeguards, but I can't accept the logic that because person A didn't get any help with a problem, person B must not get any help.

No offense to you or your friends, but I'd rather the justice exist, even if it is applied unevenly, than not exist at all.

Yeah, but on the other hand, we aren't the lindens... It's quite possible that they have a set of critera for when they help and when they do not that we simply aren't privy to, though I will admit that I can't see any particular pattern to their logic.

Assuming Schanson's representation is accurate (I have no reason to doubt it) then this is well outside the bounds of SL. This is a real world commercial transaction, done in accordance with Linden Lab's documented process. This is not a case of an errant in-game land transfer or buggy in-game permissions. It is as real as paying a car dealership for a car and then the dealer declining to hand over the keys and pink slip.

That is why I cited the Uniform Commerce Code (the consolidated US laws for sales and other transactions). Linden Lab made an offer for transfer, they accepted the consideration they required and failed to perform their part of the contract. If you knew that a car dealer had a reputation for taking payment in full and keeping the car (or giving it to someone else) you wouldn't set foot in their door and would likely advise others to do the same.

This is not trivial and it is not subject to Linden Lab rules, judgements, or feelings. This is a real world breach of contract and - I'll be generous again as we've heard one side of the story - if true has the potential to permanently stain Linden Lab as a company that you don't want to transact business with.

No. It is not at all like a dealer refusing to hand over the keys. The "dealer" in this case was not the one handed the money. It is more like a parking lot refusing to hand over the keys to a different party than the one who drove the car in. Which is completely reasonable. The parking lot has little knowledge about outside transactions and, more importantly, is not set up to arbitrate disputed claims.

If you take your transactions outside of SecondLife, expect to have to use the services of things outside of SecondLife solve the problems that arise.

In the future have the cash held in escrow.

prak, you would be correct about my example being disanalogous if not for the confirmations noted by Schwanson. LL acted as if they had received proper authentication in accordance with their documented contractual process.

They require confirmation from both parties. One party failed to confirm. It is not the place of LindenLabs to arbitrate disputes involving things outside of SecondLife.

LindenLabs does not, and should not attempt to, have any knowledge about the agreement between the two parties. Perhaps the payment was less than the agreed upon fee. Perhaps there were other requirements that needed to be met. Perhaps the money was refunded. Perhaps the seller is trying to scam people. All quite possible scenarios and none of them should matter to LindenLabs; they lack the power to determine the truth.

Transferring the island should be the only service they provide and clearly that should only happen when both parties agree. There are established ways to resolve disputes like this and none of them involve LindenLabs. There are also established ways to avoid disputes like this and, again, none of them involve LindenLabs.

I do not want LindenLabs at all involve in deciding who should own what land. They should restrict themselves entirely to keeping track of who currently owns what. Once they start trying to resolve disputes they are going to inevitably be accused of playing favorites and that will only hurt everyone.

Very crucial wording, stating a transfer request has been canceled implies that a transfer request has been previously accepted. Just as you would desire LL not be party to this, neither do I wish that you or I be so.

I think it only fair to note Robin's prompt reply to this matter. Even though not wildly satisfying, at least they acknowledge it is at issue.

I can confirm this person tried sell same sim after, according to Schwanson, she already picked up his money via Western Union.

She first contacted me on thursday trying to sell Fantasy Island. We quickly agreed on price, but then she insisted on being paid Western Union because she did not like PayPal. I insisted on PayPal and payment after completion of sim transfer and suddenly there was no deal.

Several days later she filed Island Sales Request for Fantasy Island via ANSHECHUNG.COM website. Suddenly Western Union was no longer one issue. This was 3 days after Schwanson says he paid her. She then wrote to Linden Lab to transfer the sim to me, after I told her that would be required before I can send payment. She also displayed one certain level of urgency, telling me she would have to leave SL soon and such.

It seems very clear to me that she tried to steal Schwanson's money. She took his payment, then refused deliver and tried sell sim to me instead. This scam failed because I refused pay her before sim transfer was complete and Linden Lab stopped transfer to me and seems be going to give the sim to Schwanson.

I think the person should not be allowed get away with this. It is not enough that her scam was stopped. She deserves one lesson and one clear message should be sent to people that trying scam SL users for 4 digit US$ amounts is not some risk free fun activity!

I *think* said sim is up for auction on SLE... ends today... and its up twice...

Here

It implies no such thing. The email was received. Meaning it showed up in someone's inbox.

The only reasonable meaning I can imagine for "accepted," in this context, is that the island's ownership was changed. This is neither stated nor implied by anything mentioned in this thread by Schwanson Schlegel. In fact he explicitly states that it did not happen;
This transferred was no more accepted by LindenLabs than a bank would accept a check that a customer had requested a stop-payment for. Neither is the right party to sort through the details.

Making LindenLabs arbitrate this sort of dispute will do nothing to prevent you or I from become entangled in one in the future. In fact it is far more likely to have exactly the opposite result as their enforcement of the few rules they already have seems to be widely regarded as lackluster.

And, let me repeat lest it get overlooked; they have no power to determine the truth regarding outside transactions. Any decision they might reach about such a dispute would be little more than a stab in the dark. Favorites would be played and trust lost.

Um. Indeed it would seem it is. And this is worth noting!

How many more ways is she going to try and find to sell the same island to more people?

(I do find it quite amusing that she's tried to sell it direct to Anshe Chung, and is now using a site half owned by Anshe Chung to try and scam other people too. This girl has brass balls, it seems )

Edit: Actually, she has TWO auctions on the go for islands at SLEX. Seeeee?. Uh. Apparently Willow said so above. I should actually read her posts. Pfft.

Anyone trying to sell something over the Internet or just a mobile phone number (virtually untraceable) for a payment over Western Union is 99.9% of the time a fraud. I cannot count the number of auction scams involving this, that I've stumbled upon.

Typical example: Seller proposes some expensive item at a reasonable price for auction. Buyer sends money via WUnion expecting the "escrow" feature to work as advertised (that the money will be sent only if the buyer provides a code, which the seller will send after receiving the item). Except the money is withdrawn without a need for a code and the item often does not even exist and is never sent.

This worked wonders for someone scammed out of $2k for buying an auctioned PowerBook a couple years ago. Seconded !

EDIT MONSTER ALERT!!!!!

I told you to listen to me...

and yup, up twice, maybe shes got like 10 islands to sell or something

I am, however, very surprised this wasn't picked up by Anshe, being on SLEX.. but then I guess shes a busy lady!

Hrrmm. She is not showing up in Find People.

I quote Anshe here only as an example of many of you naming and shaming this Brandi person in forum, and making serious accusations of fraud. My point is that this is a precedent of considerable significance. Since this has been clearly allowed, and I think approved by everyone posting here, I will now expect more posts naming and shaming bad business practices, and probably quoting this thread as their justification.

I'm not making any personal value judgements here, just an interested observation on the direction in which forum ethics are moving. I guess we can now all feel more free to post even more direct criticisms of, and warnings about, the business practices of openly named residents. Brings plusses and minuses.....

Well, while I disagree with Anshe directly naming the name as it against the rules, I have never felt that that should be a rule. While I understand the theory, that it's to try to protect the reputation of someone who may either be innocent or just the victim of a misunderstanding, in actuall practice I don't think it's needed in SL as it stands today... Reputation is harder to ruin than that, good word spreads easily enough. Also, SL is small enough that it's normally easy enough to judge for yourself given the questionable facts presented. All it really serves to do anymore is protect the guilty, which I've never felt was really a valid use of laws.

Thanks for the notice, Willow... to think I almost missed my chance to bid on both!

Since we're on the topic of sales, if anyone wants to buy the Brooklyn Bridge, please contact me in game via IM. Payment accepted in small, unmarked L$ only.