Thank you SOE for respecting my privacy

Yes, I am formerly a long time EQ player. EQ as we all know is owned by a huge company, Sony Online Entertainment.

Here is an excerpt from a recent mail they sent all subscribers.

"this email address will not be used for marketing purposes unless you specifically opt-in for newsletters and announcements.'

SPECIFICALLY OPT IN.

I'll say it again.

SPECIFICALLY OPT IN.

Thank you, SOE, for your concern for my privacy, my concern for receiving spam EVEN THOUGH I NEVER HAVE, and so on. And I'm not even a member anymore!

Microsoft, that evil empire, practices the same. You must OPT IN.

What harm could it do? Apparently, these companies think that is irrelevant.

YOU MUST OPT IN. Or your info won't be available for use. This shows respect for my concerns, which apparently, they think are valid.

Forced onto the lists, and opt out, is WRONG. The fact that LL allows it will work against them. It is disrespectful.

People say it is me that is impacting LL's efforts. Hurting their marketing, and so forth.

It isn't. It is the people taking advantage of our trust in LL to keep our SL info within SL, and the people that choose to be indifferent to concerns of security and privacy, or simply write it off as hysteria, that are damaging the credibilty of "concern for privacy and security in the broadest sense". And ultimately, the credibility of LL. Which, currently for me, is in serious play.

LL, please follow the positive lead in this area of companies that demonstrate this concern in a realistic way.

Forbid people from publishing and distributing my account info in any way. I remind all of you, your avatar name is 2/3 of your account info, and your key is a hardline into the world directly to your avatar. SOE has banned people for publishing lists of avatar names, even though you may start an avatar that is not the same name as your account info.

In SL, you can't. Your av info is your account info. Everything but your password. Nobody but an SL resident would ever have any way of knowing my SL last name.

These companies, far more experienced in publishing online games, forbid it. Because they KNOW that it can be taken advantage of.

I agree. Please demonstrate your concern in a realistic way. Do not sell my email address. Do not tolerate spamming. Do not indulge the paranoid.

I fail to see the difference in selling an in world email, which is what your key is, or 2/3 of your account ID, which is what your name is, and giving it away while simultaneously releasing yourself of any consequences of the use of it by anybody that is interested in doing so.

Which is exactly what LL is doing.

It is only a matter of time, and inventiveness, which, given the fact they hand the info out freely, or rather permit residents to do so, is not rocket science.

I remember once people used to say, "nobody would pay for an account solely to grief".

Go ahead, deny that one. Depart entirely from the evidence.

People WILL do it. If LL forbids the practice of extracting the info from their software and/or compile it by scanners for non SL public distribution, they get to the root. If people can't do it, then they don't worry about the spammers. They worry about the people within SL enabling them, and that is the proper remedy.

Otherwise, they are saying, "we permit it. And if people do something wrong with it, there is nothing we can do about it. However, we do monitor our network, and when we can, attempt to catch these people...but only if it hits our network. Anything else is not our problem, even though we own the info."

Well, in fact, what they are saying is, "we own the info as long as you are in SL. As soon as somebody moves that info from within to without, we release ownership. It's free, take it and do as you will!".

They are alts. You will never catch them. If you do, they won't care. How much more abuse of alts do you need to see to be convinced? Three more years?

Keep it up and you'll get it. I have accurately predicted a number of major changes in SL, including taxes (even Lindens once told me I was crazy and that there was no other way), permissions, and so on. They have all come to pass. And I am now predicting that this is going to cause LL serious problems. The reasons are right in front of you. Release your prejudice and look at the facts.

It WILL happen. Your security and privacy IS being compromised. If you don't care, fine. But that doesn't mean it isn't an issue, or that it isn't happening.

Do you need it to actually begin happening? Even Cory at the town hall said, "yes. Your key can be used for that. But don't do it because it's against the TOS".

Pfft. Yeah. People care about that.

I'm not the least paranoid about things on the web. I've been buying stuff for ages. I have put up with spam for ages. I'm not huge into privacy on any internet issue or even on any rl issue. Etc. etc. etc.

And I don't pretend to understand all this. And I would say that, for the most part, any harm coming from these key lists being compiled is probably minimal, especially considering how many of us there are. (Not nonexistant, just minimal - kinda like there may be 30,000 ants in a colony, but only a few are actually gonna get stepped on by the boot that lands on their nest.)

But I have read these posts by Tcoz and I think the preponderance of the evidence - and general good sense - is on the side of his arguments. I agree LL should address this issue and prevent our numbers from being harvested by anyone who wants to, and sold, dissiminated, or used for any purpose whatever.

coco

Tocz has valid concerns which I also support. Opt-in makes a strong statement, much stronger than opt-out and is good business.

Agreed Tcoz well said.


LL Take the lead from other companies who obviously have a firm grasp on this issue. Better to be safe than sorry.

Cat

Considering that spamming or anything else with keys can only occur on Linden Lab' network, from within SL (even if it is being directed by an external site), and all of this can be gathered and used in world freely already (and has been for quite some time), how do you propose to stop it? Remove the sensor function? You cannot do anything with keys outside of SL anyway - you have to be an SL member, and only objects inside of SL can actually communicate with the grid (sending ims or items) - there are no direct external communications. All of the stuff that you predict exists right now in SL, with or without a a public list on a web site. The privacy violation is the sensor function that gives up the key in the first place, not the list of keys.

Keys are publicly available easily in SL, and can only be used in SL - so all the arguments about it being outside of SL and suddenly usable outside SL are false - they are not. Your email address is quite different from your key - anyone can email, from any network, it is impossible to stop. That is hardly the case with keys, and making the association between the two like they are the same is just adding more FUD to this issue.

Should we thus allow people to opt out of the find person utility?

The find person utility is a mechanism by LL, for subscribers of the LL service, Second Life.

It can not be used by anybody unless you are in world. And it does not provide you with keys.

This is a common defense, easily countered.

I pay LL for the use of the info. LL owns it as a part of the deal of my use of SL. It uniquely identifies me within the SL environment.

I do not permit them to allow distribution of this info to any and all takers. I never did. There is nothing anywhere that would lead me to believe this is allowed. If they do in fact permit it, it should clearly state it in the EULA, "your name, which is 2/3 of your account info, and key, which is your in world emails (and which a Linden has already stated may be used for spam) may not be published external to the SL environment.".

And it does not.

The info is useful in SL. Nowhere else, according to so many. So why publish it externally? What is the reason for this?

I have said, numerous times, within SL, I have no objection to distribution of the info. None at all. Outside, by other residents that do not work for LL, and who may be using that info for any other purpose...and people are inventive, you have no way of knowing what hole they will find...I object.

LL also has not responded to whether or not extracing AV info from the name.cache file, or any portion of their software at all, no matter how simple it may be, qualifies as "intended use of the software". I am certain it does not.

If LL forbids the practice of compiling and out-of-SL publishing the lists, they make a statement.

If they allow it, which they currently do, they make another sort of statement. One that I, and I'm sure many others, are not interested in investing in, and that the overall gaming community will undoubtedly find interesting.

There is no "public" info. The entire environment is owned by LL, as is the info within it. They are giving these people permission to publish this info. It is not incidental at all. LL is not the United STates Hall of Records and Registration. "Public" is entirely misleading.

It compromises my sense of privacy and security. If you don't care, that is your affair. Please don't force it on me.

The key lists may be viewed by everyone, but are equally useless to anyone unless they are in world.

As for your name: I hate to break it to you, but this highly sensitive data which comprises 2/3 of your being has already spread far and wide.
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22tcoz+bach%22&btnG=Search

There are many ways to steal. They are all illegal. Just because others are doing it does not justify it or make it right.

And I disagree that the info is soley exploitable within SL. That, imho, does not credit the inventiveness of people that have proven they can abuse the SL environment in spite of (and I use the term loosely) LL's best efforts.

I pay LL to house the info.

It uniquely IDs me.

It is for my use. Nobody else within SL may use it. The system forbids it.

It should remain that way, both in SL, where it is enforced, and outside of SL, where LL has decided to be spineless regarding the matter up to this point.

Cory Linden, who writes the script API, has stated, at the town hall, that your key can be used to spam you.

We all know alts are a serious problem in SL. LL does not deal effectively with griefing alts. They simply do not.

So if you tell me it can't be used for in world spam, I suggest you read the town hall transcript.

It is a FACT. Alts + key lists = problems. Forbid them, and you cut off the source. Will people still do it? Of course. But now you get right to the heart of the matter. Publish the lists, you will be banned.

So what you'd like to see is the death of every external site that uses something as benign as your name, because you feel that you own all rights to the name? SLUniverse should be required to censor your name from any post? New World Notes should keep mum on the dread secret of your name? Your entries in the Second Life history wiki should be excised?

Yes. I believe that if I discover the info used elsewhere, I should have the right to request it be removed. Second Life is a PRIVATE service that I PAY FOR. It is not my United States Citezenship info. The use of "public" in SL is entirely misleading. There is NO PUBLIC INFO. LL owns it all, and I pay them for the use of it.

The point of "what is intended to be done with these lists, and do they make any exploitation considerably more likely" also frequently remains unaddressed.

SOE prevent the publication of such lists. If you complain, they will contact the publisher. Yes, they will.

I do not care that my name is used in articles or whatever. I do care that it is part of a resource, clearly to be used for "Vendor Services", that LL is in no way in control of.

Just because it has gotten out of hand doesn't mean it's right.

Cory Linden said, in the town hall, your key can be used to spam you.

Alts are a problem. Nobody will deny that. If an alt decides to spam all 40k on that list, LL will be powerless to prevent it.

I pay LL for the use. I do not, nor have ever stated, nor have ever had any reason to believe, that the rights to that info extends to any resident by default.

If it does, LL should put it in the EULA to be up front about it.

I entirely fail to understand what is wrong with "opt in". It is respectful and decent.

Tcoz,

I will point out that you are the person who registered with your SL user name on SLuniverse, thus you opted into that information being displayed. Don't you dare suck my site or any other into your obsession with key lists - you put your name on the site.

Read my post Cristiano.

I do not care. And btw, you stating an administrative function/administrative info like that on this website, which is in regards to my registration info on your site, is entirely inappropriate.

I posted my info on your site as a community service to other people that may have been subject to the recent suicide hoax.

However, as I now know you will openly reveal registration info to the public, I will remove my info from your site, and request that you do not reveal it on any other websites.

Tcoz,

Your key can be used to spam you right now, without any external site involvement. You keep referencing Cory Linden's statement, but you don't acknowledge that you can't be spammed outside of SL.

You edited it after your original post, thus I deleted mine.

Wrong again.

I frequently state I am aware you need an SL account to do it.

But I also frequently state, and there is tremendous evidence, that alts are a problem beyond the ability of LL to deal with.

It's a fact, we all know it. People start alts solely for the purpose of griefing and have been getting away with it since day one.

I think there are little kids dying of AIDS in Africa. How about taking up a real cause?

Openly reveal registration info? How many times are you going to reedit a post. The user list on the site is public Tcoz, no news there. My point was that you opted into your name being displayed on the site, and thus it is now also a part of Google. When dealing with third party sites, you can choose to make your user name whatever you want it to be for privacy reasons. Before you edited your post for the umpteenth time, your answer to Ardith's direct question about SLuniverse made it sound as if I had somehow taken the information and displayed it inappropriately.

Cristiano, you should not discuss registration info. Particularly not as an admin.

You did. I will therefore, in spite of the fact I have posted twice on your site total, request that my info be removed from your database.

Please honor the request.

I will gladly remove it. I do not need you to tell me what I should or should not do, Tcoz. If you are going to make blanket statements about sites with your avatar name listed on them, then expect a comment on it.

Where is your sanity? Are you okay? If the internet is so scarey, books are a really safe place. I will warn you though, there are some books about the future and computers so you might want to be careful. Also, there are computers in *gasp* the library, so be careful and just walk around them.

What on earth is this about ?
Have some people who never wrote a script somehow got the idea that an avatars key is a sort of secret ?
What garbage, it is simply an alternative, more "computer friendly" version of the name that scripters have to use to refer to an agent, so that it is consistent with the way the software handles objects, textures etc.

It is NOT a secret which gives you power over its owner. Yes, to refer to the owner in a script you do in some cases need his key. But a script can get it for you whenever the agent is within 96m of one of the scripters objects, or whenever the object is over the agent's land.
This means for instance that any vendor from which you make a purchase can easily record your name and key in a client list. It is true we dont currently have a scripting function which will turn any name into its key, but this isn't for privacy reasons. Its for technical database reasons. If it was easy, we would have it. We might get it one day.

People compiling these lists of keys are simply providing something scripters need because LL are unable to supply it.

Yes, a key list can be used to spam IM communications, but it has all sorts of other uses too. Is it so frightful to receive communications you don't want or expect? Anyone flying past can speak to you, uninvited. Anyone who picks your name in "find people" can do the same, and someone clever could automate that. And anyone can spam you anytime you are within 96m of one of their objects. How often does that happen?

Your key is nothing to protect. Other players may need to know it for some interactions with you, just as they may need to know your name. It simply isn't anything to get worked up about.

As for all the stuff about Sony and privacy, I can't make head nor tail of what is being said. Could someone rewrite it more simply and clearly please, if they want those of us who are not geniuses or telepathic to respond ?

Deleted. I have no control over Google's display of the information, however. Again, you made your name public on the site - you could have easily chosen DeathStar or WhatAboutBob or XXXXXXXX. That was my point, in response to your statements that such sites were inappropriately using your name. I revealed no registration info about you - your login information is not your display name on the site.