Yay Hamas..

I'm no expert on the subject, but... "no reason to keep Islamic militant group Hamas out of government"?

Nooo, really....they're okay guys! I don't see anything wrong with Hamas, do you? I certainly can't think of any reasons to keep them out of government. Of course not...how could you? I mean...they have the people's support... so they must be good right?

The propaganda and misinformation in that area must be staggering. And this is spoken right after Israel pulls out of Gaza... gotta love this Palestinian concept of "compromising for peace". Way to go people. Whatever...


...



PARIS (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said on Thursday there was no reason to keep Islamic militant group Hamas out of government if it won enough votes in impending Palestinian parliamentary elections.

In an interview which will appear in France's Liberation newspaper on Friday, Abbas said he believed Hamas leaders were becoming integrated into Palestinian political life and would in the future transform the movement into a party.

Asked if Hamas could enter government if it won enough support in parliamentary elections on January 21, the first to be contested by the group, Abbas said:

"Hamas will take part in the elections and if they are successful, why not? If we want to build a democracy, we should accept all the consequences."

Abbas's
Fatahmovement runs the Palestinian Authority, but has suffered from perceived graft, mismanagement and a loss of control over its armed factions.

Helped by Fatah's woes, Hamas made a strong showing in recent municipal voting, the first participation in elections by the Islamist group that has been at the forefront of an uprising since 2000.

Hamas could gain a third of the vote in the poll, riding a public backlash over the perceived corruption in Fatah. That could be enough for Hamas to demand a veto over peace steps with Israeland possibly a place in an Authority cabinet.

Hamas expects about a third of the next parliamentary vote.

Abbas said Israel's pullout from Gaza was a victory for peace but was less sure of the outlook when asked if Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could go further without hurting public opinion.

"I understand his difficulties. But I don't know whether or not he will use these difficulties as an excuse. I think he can go further. He has proven that he can do it. But I don't know how far he can go."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050825/wl_nm/mideast_abbas_hamas_dc

Oh sorry, thought this thread said Yay Hams... I'm all for Ham... Carry on

I don't see why this would be shocking to anyone. Hamas is more than just a "militant group".

While i do not support some of their activities, Hamas is responsible for many social service programs. They have provided for people where others have not. Their social service programs are tremendously larger than their "militant" faction.

I'm not saying what they do is right, but it's not shocking they are popular enough to be in the government. As a matter of fact, winning the hearts and minds isn't a bad strategy. Where did I hear that before?

Shocking, no...but I don't care if someone is feeding starving children if they also support and consider themselves part of a group that kills other people. What's the point? Actual decent people do not function like that.

I suspect the main reason they do "good" is only to make themselves look better, so they can do stuff like they're trying to do now. (Take over and continue to forward their own agenda through any means they see fit.) And they're using propaganda and their local media among other things to gain control of the general populace. I'm not going to go looking for examples because I don't feel like getting any more annoyed atm.

Defending Hamas... eh, what can I say, I'd never even think of it.

Sounds like the Conservative Christians here in the U.S.

Yes it does, but they are not anywhere near as successful overall, and most people recognize this. Plus, the biggest difference: they aren't blowing shit up.

Do you support Isreal? They are killing people with tanks who are throwing rocks at them because Isreal stole their drinking water. Neither side is right in this conflict, you can't win back either.

I realize they're both in the wrong, I've never said otherwise. But I can sympathize more with Israel. I don't feel that they are the primary source of the hate in the area. I think Israel is more motivated by the desire for security and defense, and the Palestinians are more motivated by "nationalism" or something like it, and the desire to "kick the Jews out" of areas they want--primarily. It may not have started out like that but it seems like it now from my distant perspective. But let's not stray from the original point: Hamas=assholes.



It's not like it's just Israel condemning them--they're clearly involved with dirt bag activities, so Hamas apologists confuse me. Maybe they should be allowed to join and run the Pal. Goverment, but it'll look pretty strange when they complain about their next suicide attack drawing Israeli retaliation. Is this really what the Palestinians want--terrorist style war? In most cases I'd have serious doubts, but here I'm just not really sure anymore.

Here's a fun factoid to put things into perspective:
Total Land Area - sq km
1 World 148,940,000.00
155 Israel 20,330.00
171 West Bank 5,640.00
208 Gaza Strip 360.00
http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/total_land_area_0.html

So, the world is being torn apart over 1.3% of the earth's land mass.

Eboni - Not finding a reference to your water-conflict/rock-throwing incident. At any rate, I found this interesting site:

http://www.mideastweb.org/water.htm

Here's an interesting quote:



Emphasis mine.

wtf do you have against hummus?

you accursed anti-tzatzikites.

One man blew up one abortion clinic thus clearly going against everything the Church teaches....and you want to paint every single Conservative Christian with that brush. Amazing.

-Kiamat Dusk
All the Wrong Kennedys Are Dead

Yes, HAMAS is quite the social organization. They run a childrens' newspaper..
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=15056
Their Palestine Children's Welfare Fund hosts drawing contests...
http://www.pcwf.org/contestaward/contestaward.htm
Heck, they've even got a webzine for the little tykes...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29535


That said, the bitter reality is that one of the surest ways to get groups to disarm is to get them involved in the political system. Then they all turn into nice little politi-crits who are too fat and comfy to wage war. Take for example Sinn Fein. We're not all the way over the hump there, but it's a lot closer than it has been in decades.

Kiamat Dusk
-You Can't Kill Terrorists With Kindness

Oh dear, Oh dear. If only people could actually read this with the cultural blinkers and patriotic prejudices off. Or even go just one step further and consider looking with cool impartial eyes at whether they themselves might even be supporting, or at least part of, groups that actually kill some of the actual starving children themselves ...............
Sadly, I am such a one. Didn't even spare time to go to the march.

I weep for the world, at both your posts, Garoad.
I wouldn't know where to begin.

Kiamat, there has been more than one bombing. No, I'm saying all Conservative Christians are like that. You may have misread my comments - nowhere did I say 'they're all like that' or anything of that manner, Kiamat.

The 'they' is referring to those that act out the voilence and they are Conservative Christians, so while not all CC's are like that or would ever in a million years consider doing something along those lines, some of them have.

*cough* Republicans...lest we forget the pubs were all in favor of running over to Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 other than the fact that they happen to exist in the same sandy region as Afghanistan, with the singular purpose of killing folks for whatever reason they chose to tag on it at various moments during the conflict. Now these same Republicans also do humanitarian work around the world including the areas they affected the greatest...that doesn't excuse them for the pain and torture they have inflicted but in this republic folks have the right to vote for whoever they feel most worthy and sometimes it turns out that person is a Republican....good, bad or otherwise. So yes some actual "decent" people do function like that. I guess it all depends on ones definition of decent.

Defending Republicans....eh, what can I say, I'd never even think of it.

garoad...havent you learned that you cant beat these folks...they have emotional appeal, red-herrings and all sorts of other false comparisons and ridiculousness to throw at you...

just no way to beat that...

Just because someone *claims* to be something doesn't mean they are. People who commit such acts are no more following the teachings of the Bible than the terrorists in Iraq are obeying the Koran. Those people aren't Muslims by any stretch of the imagination. Frankly, I think we should stop referring to them as "Muslim extremists", "Islamofacists", or "Islamic Fundamentalists". That's why people are getting confused and thinking that we are at war with Muslims. Those people are perverting the religion for their own ends.

Moreover, your quote was unqualified, Juro. You didn't say CC's who blow up clinics. You said:



Wait...what was my point again? Oh, yeah. Just because someone claims to hold a certain faith, if their actions clearly run counter to said faith they are not truly of said faith.

-Kiamat Dusk
Conservative Christian (shocking, I know)

Kiamat,

Don't take it out of context. My quote was a response to a comment that Garoad made, which I quoted in my post.

So, for your clarification, here is Garoad's comment, followed by mine:

That was quoted and my response was:



So, who qualifies that? When someone who identifies as a Christian goes out and kills someone, who gets to make the decision that they are *not* Christian? What guide is used to figure out if they truly are Christian?

Ellie: Please stop with the veiled insults, and I'll be happy to discuss the topic with you--you can even attempt to defend the terrorist organization Hamas if you feel so compelled--I promise I won't call you a terrorist yourself for it.

Ishtar: One problem with the analogy can be summed up like so--

On the one hand you have a war initiated to overthrow a dictator (i.e. "very bad man" ) to establish a progressive democracy within the middle east, something that benefits all parties (other than religious extremist assholes). I could go on with more reasons for awhile, but that's off topic.

Then you have Hamas--a TERRORIST organization condemned by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, involved in the indescriminate killing of all types of Israelis using bus bombings, suicide bombings with kids, etc., trying to intimdate and coerce a foreign government/people to give into their demands, "or else".

Republicans are assholes too, but I don't see the comparison. They aren't even in the same league of assholeness. It's not just a political thing, there's a real difference. Is the accidental death of a civilian caused by the US military really the same as a death caused by a suicide bomber? That's what a "Republican"/Hamas comparison sounds like to me. (Historically, you could place the Democrats in the same shoes anyway, so singling out one party is kind of pointless to me, it's really an America/Hamas comparison.)

I know, red herrings and false comparisons indeed, but the truth is I'm not trying to "beat" anyone really. I'm surprised anyone even jumped to the defense of Hamas. I mean who, besides Hamas themselves and others in that region, believes that Hamas is a "good" organization that deserves to be part of a political process of any kind?

I'm sorry if you saw it as an insult, Garoad. It was just how it sounded - a weary sigh.

I had the misfortune to stumble across the Israeli/Palestinian topic, as a completely uninvolved individual, about three years ago, and researched it as a sort of hobby for about eighteen months. I wish I hadn't. It's frankly better not to know.

I will only say that I have drawn very firm personal conclusions about the actions of the Israeli government over the years, and of the settlers they have imported from all over the world to seize palestinian lands and property, and the on the gigantic funding these activities have received from the US taxpayer. The violation of UN security council resolutions. Of the Geneva convention. It goes on and on. My conclusions are that the Israeli actions are so appalling that almost anything the Palestinians do in return is understandable, explainable, and indeed only to be expected. This does NOT mean I approve, or justify. Just that I understand, and am not surprised. Like when a child in the playground hits back after long persecution by a bully. One chastises both of course. But one is not surprised, and one sees why.

How the Israelis have avoided the crippling international sanctions they have so richly deserved over the years is itself a study.

The only two points the Israelis seem to put up in THEIR justification are:
1. God promised the land to them
2. They are in danger of being overrun and driven into the sea.

The first is no different to me than the cry of many murderers currently locked up everywhere. "God told me to do it" results in the attentions of police, and mental nurses with keys, in every civilised location.

The second is garbage. Israel has more nuclear warheads than the UK (over 200), and the means of delivering them, by aircraft, submarine launched cruise missile, and long range missiles capable of reaching probably to London. They are about as militarily vulnerable in a middle eastern context as a tiger in a chicken shed.

I am so upset, and so angry, and so impotent, that to protect myself I now try to avoid contact with any news from this region, and I try never to involve myself in detailed discussion with those of opposite view, whom I usually find either simply do not know the truth of what has been going on, are biased by their own racial or religious origins, or have their judgement skewed by some version of the "God is involved" garbage.

I regard the Old Testament as a remnant of a religion from earlier days, when each tribe had its God or Gods, who preferentially backed them in every aggressive or defensive manouevre, and made compacts and bargains with them through the priests who had created the deity for this purpose. This one religion, of many similar now extinct, survived to make trouble today through three accidents.

1. Its priests had writing, and believed in recording their history and belief system
2. Its people were outcast and persecuted, so they naturally closed ranks, clung to each other and their books, preserving their culture and blood line from dilution.
3. Just about the time it was likely to be marginalised, this old book was revitalised by a beautiful new religion which, though directly in opposition to much of the old teaching, nevertheless sprang up under its influence, and of necessity used old prophecies to validate its birth, and get it off the ground.

This piggy-back ride, a bad old religion of partiality and heavenly vegeance clinging to a fine new one of love, impartiality, and forgiveness, brought this long-inappropriate book into every place of worship in the western world, and seems to be the root of this festering middle-east conflict which is threatening our children's safety. Principally now via the christian tax-payers of the US.

Let me be clear - not everything in this old religion is bad - what I said in the last paragraph is not really fair. It has elements of love and beauty too. It incorporates elements of social engineering, engendering family stability and emotional security which others could well copy. Almost all religions spring from a common source, an original glimpse of the centre. Each is a study in the subsequent growth of different ways of misunderstanding that glimpse. But elements in this old one are bad enough to still be causing us this trouble today.

God gave no people any license to abuse, humiliate, kill and steal from another. We all need to respect others and treat them decently. If we provoke them until they too behave badly we must understand that we share the responsibility for their acts, even acts of horror which individually and out of context all right-thinking people must absolutely condemn. I absolutely condemn the murderous brutality of BOTH sides.

Curses - I never meant to post like this. It cannot possibly achieve anything. It needs a year of cool impartial study to change anyones mind on this. Not just a single posting in an off-topic forum. Why on earth should any of you believe me that it is this bad ?

One cannot know which of two people to believe without spending much time in their company. Research it for a year, Garoad. Learn what sources to trust. If your mind is truly open, I think you'll be as shocked as I have been.

But my real advice is - this situation is so awful - best to put your head in the sand, keep believing what others around you believe, and don't discuss it. You'll only bring yourself pain, to no purpose, as I have done.

I really wish I hadn't typed all this out, but having done it, it seems a betrayal not to post it.............

I appreciate the offer, Garoad. I don't mean to insult you.

In fact I typed a long post, then deleted it.

This conflict situation is SO bad, and so hopeless, there is just no point in trying to discuss it. Whats worse, the gulf of incomprehension that divides the two different opinions about it exactly mirrors the conflict itself. It is just as deep, just as entrenched, and just as hopeless and unbridgeable.

I can't deal with it. Lets just pray that somehow, despite all the indications to the contrary, those involved manage to sort it out.

Please don't beat dead horses! It fuckes me up!

I was halfway through making a hummus pun when I saw I'd already done that here a week ago