Chat Loggers...what to do.

ok here is the deal.
Recently someone I know discovered a shopkeeper's assitant started using chat loggers. My friend not wanting to be vindictive and causing any drama decided not to report this. In the process though this has severly affected our game play with this knowledge. I myself had been to this shop quite a few times and information and things that I planned to do in game were most likly caught by these loggers and used by them.

My big question is this. Does Sl have any way or plan to resolve unauthorized logging or is there something I as a "john doe" can use to detect and locate these items while wandering around shops and such?

I thought it was against TOS for players to evesdrop on other players.. or is this just a general frowned upon act?

No, this is quite explicitly forbidden. Individuals doing this have been subject to disciplinary action in the past.

Such individuals are also bastards.

Yes, that sort of behavior isn't allowed. If you catch someone doing it or find a remote monitoring object, you can file an Abuse Report and send that on in. As per the CS:

From: someone

Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.

http://secondlife.com/comstandards.php

There's ways to detect such objects -- they may be invisible, so highlighting transparent from the View menu may help. You can also use a device, a scanner, like CrystalShard Foo's Scan-Foo to home in, and a very reliable way is this: if it's on land you own, from About Land ---> Objects, get all the owners of stuff and refresh that list. If a weird name you suspected is showing up, that may be cause to look into matters further.

Used them how? You tell your friend you plan to go to X place to do Y activity, has the shop followed you? Have they changed their whole range of items on sale to things you might want to use to do Y activity? If they are logging chat within the shop, they probably want to catch the things like "I'd buy it if it was 50L$ less", or "If it did that too it'd be cool", or "That'd look a lot better in pink". It's quite a valid way to find out what your customers want i think.. What do sales assistants do in shops in RL? They listen to customers in the shop talking. Would you like them to ask your permission before they listen to you talking about what's on offer?



Surely that would require notification of when you were in range of a listen. There are LOTS of listens all over SL, used in everything from opening doors, wristbands, ducks, vehicles, and i'm quite only a very small percentage are for logging chat. There'd be no feasable way of the servers parsing every script t see if it shows traits of logging chat, and the server load of telling everyone when they entered range of any listeners would surely add more than the listeners themselves.

ok maybe I need to clarify.
A) I have no proof. My friend has the proof and is afraid to react on it.
B) The informatin I have said there "Could" haev been used. It was information I know they would like to have as it was same style business and interest.
C) There was no mention of chat loggers whenever entering this area.

My main concern is obviously now I wish to know if I can detect these darn things in the future. If not is SL trying to do something against these things other then having them reported by people who can't see them.

Why? Abuse reports are anonymous, and if the person somehow knows who did it and takes issue, then starts stalking or harrassing... well then there's another abuse report.

Which results in the second ban, a few days of rest, more stalking, few days of rest, etc. Or she hires a "hitman" to take the blame off themself. We both have had our share of griefers and honestly don't wish to deal with the possibility. It would be very easy for this person to figure out it was my friend that reported this.

What I am trying to figure out is other then reporting it is there any other way to at least detect them? Something else maybe that SL is looking into? A gold toliet seat of silence maybe?

Just a question out of curiousity... is it a TOS violation if you're logging chat on your own land or only if you hide a chat logger on land that doesn't belong to you? I have no interest in doing either, but it seems a valid question that should be clarified.

Chip it is my understanding it is NOT ALLOWED PERIOD UNLESS you have some sort of notice stating you are logging.

Problem is the real land owner did not even know about the logging but why would they report this person...they are partners.

I learned about these devices recently, utterly by chance, but think they are not only reprehensible, they must also cause a lot of lag! (sensors, listeners and timers are the worst, so really people should avoid using them for that as well.) Recently, a member of the Spa Security team (a group of only 3 people, now disbanded and made up on the fly by patrons who wanted to have a good excuse to guard the body of my manager, Cherry Took) decided to take matters into her own hands and put sensors on property. Because they cause lag AND are theoretically repulsive to me (hate the idea of being monitored irl) I asked that they be taken down IMMEDIATELY, and they were. As a result, the spa security person in question quit her "job," BUT we are sensor-free and will remain so. Chat loggers are an abuse and, in my mind, a violation of the TOS even though someone could be wearing an invisibility prim and doing the same thing (spying). The dear (though perhaps misguided and still miffed at me) friend indicated to me that not only were such sensors widely available, but that it was possible to get listening devices that were invisible and difficult to detect. This does scare me. I mean... Ewwie! Generally, just in case, I keep information I must have as discreet in IM when on property that doesn't belong to me. On my own property, this isn't an issue, as I will not allow any kind of chat loggers on Spa or Rose House property. Foulcault, come to the Spa and hang out in the steam room! Great for that whole mafia movie business meeting feel! (pls forgive shameless plug)

Persephone
It sounds like you were able to see these? Did you detect them or someone else that had no rights to your land?

sorry this just really earks me cause it makes me think...whenever you hit lag...could that be a logger. I mean I have been to the spa and it is great. That makes two very popular places now that I know of and go to that have had these things on thier properties (unknown to the major land owner in both cases). Not just that one of these were is a gathering place.

Persephone - I am also happy you got those things removed your palce has always been great and if the lag has gone down will only get better (Gets his "Pickard" look going on)

I think its Ctrl+Shift+T turns on "highlight alpha" which will highlight all alpha textured objects in red, which includes objects with "invisible" textures. So unless the object is impossibly small, you'll be able to see it, especialy if its following you, it'll be noticable. (edit: Or unless the script is in an object that looks harmless)

Lag can be caused by many different things and depending on how well scripted an object is, a listener may or may not be the cause of lag.

I believe it is correct to say that you can't have a listener object unless you inform everyone in the area that conversations may be retransmitted/recorded (such as with Town Halls or communication devices). This stands regardless if its on your land or not.

Thank you for that advice OZ. Now we just need how to figure out detection of ones that are hidden in other items. In the case I refer to the script was hidden in a shop item but the item was hidden behind a shop display. I know there are items that "hear" alt channel items. Anything like that around to detect these things?

Well you can hear stuff on any channel, but theres no way to tell if a script is "hearing" on a specific channel. Like if I say "Hi" to someone in RL, they can hear me, but theres no way for me to know if they *actualy* heard me. Thats kinda how it is with scripts, while any script could be listening, theres no way to tell if it actualy is unless it tells you.

So unfortantly unless the script is named like "SuperSecretListeningDevice", you can't tell or make any assumptions its doing something bad really.

Atleast to my knowledge.

Good. I think that's the way it should be. I just could only remember incidents involving listeners planted on other people's land for purposes of spying so I wasn't sure what the actual policy is beyond that.

yeah they are not allowed period and from repsonses I have been getting it seems it is becoming common practice. It just worries me to see these things occuring and we as a people have no way to detect them.

Log my chat anytime. I couldn't care less.

if it's on land you own, from About Land ---> Objects, get all the owners of stuff and refresh that list. If a weird name you suspected is showing up, that may be cause to look into matters further.[/QUOTE]


Speaking of, I am kind of tired of "land junk." I am wondering if there is a way to do the following:

I own about 15000M in one SIM., Everyday I have to log on and check for user objects. My land options are set to ONLY landmark and fly. I don't lock my land out of courtesy to a business next door (makes it hard for people to get on her land). Yet everyday I am finding junk on my land. I generally return the users objects and be done.

It there a script I can run that find these objects. Now I am getting curious as to where they are on my land and what they are.

I don't use auto return other users items because I do have things on my land that don't belong to me yet I want to keep.

Also, I have found a large number of items (say over 150) if the user is online I IM them and tell them they have junk on my land. A few of the users had never been there and were clueless. When I returned their items nothing came back into their inventory, SL bug or just a fluke?

Anyway, my real question is whether I can get a find objects by user name that beacons the objects so I can go and see WTF they are.

Thanks guys
)

spi

Why not simply make a group, have your friends join it and put their items to group. Then set your land to that group (not group owned but just set to that group), this will allow you to turn on autoreturn and their objects to stay.

I suspected chat loggers once. I sat there and said exactly what they were looking for even though it was not true.

Good suggestion, however the problem is the builder who I used and paid will not sell me my own house, let alone answer my IM's so joing a group just so I can utilize something I own is probably not going to work in this situation.

GRRRRRRRRR...........lol.,

spi

What! You have paid someone to build you a house but they wont sell it to you. That is really ridiculous.
This sort of business normal practice?

I should be able to record whatever I want on my own land. If you want to have a "top secret" conversation, go home.

I can't believe listening devices are against the TOS everywhere. What a load of crap.

I have every right to monitor and protect my land and investments as I see fit. You have absolutely no entitlement to private conversations while on my property. If you are that concerned, take it to tells.

Now Ihave no idea how to make a listening device, but I might just have to find one.

I believe that I am the shopkeeper's assistant referred to in Foulcault's message. Let me provide more detail regarding the incident.

Spybugs are sold in SL. If they were not allowed, then why are the sales of such allowed? My Master, the shopkeeper, ordered me to place them. He has some down as well. They are very useful in identifying problems that need to be corrected, e.g. when anims and scripts do not work correctly. Very very few people will IM you of such info. The information gathered has never been used to steal ideas or harm others.

The Spybugs are on my land, and in public places. The non-vindictive person involved wished to become one of my Master's slaves. For some unknown reason, she took a disliking to me and attempted to start a fight. I had liked her very much up until then, but afterwards requested that my Master free her. He did so, but I do not know what or how it was said, other than that I received an email from her regarding the spybugs. The person was freed because of bad attitude only.