What if there was no Religion?..Your thoughts

Hello all fellow Second Lifers,

I realize that I haven't posted alot but I was in a conversation with some friends in game about a Bumper Sticker I saw. It Read, "What if there was no Religion." It was a very fascinating and very diverse dialog we had on the idea of all the things that we can attribute back to religion.

Now I don't want any flaming here, just some good old insight. I myself find that a diversified idea and open mindedness on your beliefs and others is healthy. I for religious purposes claim to be non-denominational with some tendencies towards the Cherokee beliefs.. I found that there is one thing we should all consider in our lives is that know matter what we believe, it is ours and our alone. We can share in the experiences and shared concepts of others beliefs, but our own is Our Own. So Please share what you think we wouldn't have it there wasn't any religion.

Let your imaginations Fly.

Just one quick interesting bit of Trivia for you..When the Cherokee met the White man their Name for the White man translated into "He Who Acts like a Mean Man", believing that if they Called the white man a mean man, he would never have a chance to change. So saying "Acts Like" would give the White man a chance to reform..

Peace to you all,

Soren Romulus

This is all what I think, and it might be utter crap but its my crap

Probably before tackling 'what if there was no religeon' properly, we would have to look at why there is religeon at all. Arguably, before there was governments, civilization and society (as we know them), there was religeon. Why?

We're told it is because people needed to have things explained. I guess unexplained mysteries were 'bad' (so its odd that most religeons boil down to an unexplained mystery: God). People also needed to have a sense of purpose for random events. (Why do bad things happen?)Religion also keeps people in line and provides a behavioural structure.

So what if there was no religion? I think we'd probably see the world with more military and military types in control. People would probably tend to believe a lot more in folklore and 'witches'. Value of life might not be too high and the divide between the haves and have nots would be huge.

Today I think personal beliefs as a guide to living is good, but organised religions I think are doing far more harm than good. They probably worked when the world was young, but with todays knowledge and society, they aren't working anymore.

---

I myself grep up in a catholic familly, but tend to like the shinto beliefs where the goal is to get gods to not pay attention to you (so they don't mess you up)

As for currently, I'm 31 and a scientist.

I am reminded of a scene in the movie "Easy Rider" when Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper are in a cemetery with some girls on a drug induced trip and one of the gravestones is engraved with this verse:

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him."

no religion to me would be great, being i'm an atheist. If there were no religion, guess what, no one would have any stupid opinions ha. But to think about it and let it seep in is something alot of religious people cannot do, so therefore you have diversified opinion, and know it alls wanting to make people think their opinion is the final word. I find it rather amusing.

It's not that simple. Really, it's human nature to look for a heigher power when problems go out of our hands. It's a way of reassurance, wheather it be the truth or not, I'm not judging.

See this is the kind of thing I like to see, people thinking...

Sometimes we come to the point though that we really don't think..Oddly enough most of everything we do is based on some form of religion. Here are some of my thoughts of what we would have and possibly have not:

First of all Belief in anything is truely related to some form of religion. In some cases even Atheism is a form of religion because of non belief in something.

Morallity or right and wrong, probably would be more instinctual as opposed to interllectual. We are taught what is right and what is wrong by a sense of what the consiquenses are.

Lets look at some of the words attributed to Religion.

Whole, to be whole actually come from the word Holy. So therefor we might not know the idea of wholeness or a sense of completion without it.

Love, would be more reduced to an idea or feeling, we love to eat because it is good or we love the one we are with because of companionship but Love would only be reduced to an idea or feeling.

Marriage, created to make one the property of another. Without Marriage, we might see simply a communal idea of unification, without the commitment that exist.

The word Damn, wouldn't exist..Who would be their to Damn something.

Hell, well that is certainly an idea created out of religion.

Ceremonies of most forms wouldn't exist becuase the in a sense typlify the idea of a religious state.

Witchcraft is a religion, it is a celtic,druidic,pagen idea and the word witch would also not be a label one could place.

I actually believe our societies in all their forms would be reduced to something like hives, resembling an orginized group that is completely commited to the idea of protecting the common good.

One friend brought up that we wouldn't have order, but there is a certain order to things..like life and death you are born and you die..that is order. The sun rises, the sun sets, things of this nature would be apart of our existance without question because it does.

So these are a few of my thoughts..any more?

Peace,

Soren Romulus

Religion was made by humans to instill hope and peace among our race. Whether it be genetics that gave this idea to us, or infact a higher power, is what we all wonder to ourselves (except fanatics).

I don't think it's possible to not have a religion without undergoing some sort of labotomy. And even after that labotomy, you'd probably find yourself seeing life as meaningless and thus commit suicide.

At least that's what I think...

Actually, I believe early religions were simply a way of attempting to explain the unexplainable. This later warped and developed and degenerated into an organized system for manipulating/controlling masses of people who were duped into being willing participants due to their desire to, as already stated, have things explained to them that they didn't understand. Religions are similar to governments. Goverments attempt to manipulate/control people physically/logically. Religions attempt to manipulate/control people emotionally.

I do agree, though, that it would be virtually impossible to have a world without the concept of God or gods. Considering that the concept goes all the way back to the first attempts to determine/explain where thunder/lightning/rain come from.

Oh, and Soren: Atheism is not really a "non belief in something." It's more of a "belief in nothing." A fine distinction, but one that should be made nonetheless. (I think the "non-belief" would fall more into the category of agnosticism.) I do, however, agree that although most atheists cringe at the thought, atheism should be classified as a religion.

I also agree that the whole "People would probably tend to believe a lot more in folklore and 'witches'" thing is off-track, as well. Since the entire concept of a "witch" as we know it today was created by the Catholic Church. And, as stated before, "witch" is merely a term used to describe members of specific religions. If there were no religions, there would be no witches, simply because those religions wouldn't exist, either.

Unfortunately, as much as I despise organized religions, I think that our race (human) would have died out long ago if it weren't for religion. Without religious manipulation, there would probably be no concept of good/evil or right/wrong.

I think organized religion is an anachronism. At one time a necessity for the survival of the species, but now mainly a way for a few charismatic individuals to claim power and influence over others.

Thanks Grimm, I didn't mean to say "a non belief in something".. but late in the evening isn't also a good time for me to type..

Thanks and Peace,

Soren

I read this and couldn't help but have that John Lennon song keep playing in my thoughts.

Without religion, for good or ill, we would today have no civilization. Without dreams, without ethics and morals, without hope, who would have ever bothered to climb out of their huts and come up with something better?

It's too bad that like any other body of knowledge, religious thought is prone to being hijacked by authority figures and used to dominate others. Today, science and medicine are often used the same way. A few centuries ago we had the Inquisition, today we have atomic terror and mental institutions.

So, what if there was no religion? Might as well say, what if we don't exist?

Religion is a crutch, perhaps, but we're lame -- and crutches, while unfortunate, seem necessary.

Without religion, we'd hop. With it, we lurch. Why do you think people speak of the grace of God? It's envy!

Coyote,

Though I’m 180 degrees away from you in point of view, I simply dig your analogy / metaphor thingy. “Its Envy!” That’s a terrific punch line.

All,
Since were talking religion, or rather the lack of it, I would add:
If every human suddenly forgot the concept of religion, God would still exist. He would call new prophets and teach them to teach us, about religion. Everyone seems to be posting that religion is a man made structure; I offer the opposing view that it is a concept given us by a creator, in fact, religion has been taught, by God, to humanity in varying dispensations. Now, I’m sure many don’t believe as I do, (*shock!) but might I suggest the thought experiment to fill your obviously bored mind

Assume the point of view (just pretend) that there is indeed a “spiritual something” going on, and you would like to know more. If you cannot accept that there is a possibility of “more than meets the eye” then this experiment will have no meaning to you.

Study as much as you can about all the different world “religions.” Now, do a comparative analysis and see if you can derive some “prototypical” religion. What does that religion look like? What does it believe? What are the “doctrines” and “ceremonies” of the prototypical religion?

Discuss.

(Extra credit, Iv dropped a few clues as to what “denomination” I am, can you guess it? No fair if your one too!)

Wheatgrinder --

I doubt we're 180 degrees apart in view... I'd say a more conservative 90 degree angle would be more accurate.

I believe my brain is incapable of truly comprehending "What's What". It's too small. My thoughts are too clouded. I mean, come on. I'm made out of water and grime.

Some of us agnostics simply feel that we're not qualified to insist on a worldview we can't comprehend... that trying to define something so elusively complex is an exercise in futility.

I believe in the Unknown and the Unknowable*.

*The only detail I can provide: the godhead sounds exactly like Johnny Cash.

No, it looks and sounds like Alanis Morissette.

*duck*

LOL

I loved that movie!

Coyote
Your right, your feeble little brain (mines even smaller) doesn’t have enough neurons to accurately contemplate the billions of molecules in a grain of table salt. BUT, that doest keep you from “tasting” salt. You can still experience the “savor” of salt without knowing ALL there is to know ABOUT salt. You get my meaning? The same is true with “God.”

If we can pretend for a moment that the God described in three major world religions is at least close to accurate we can dredge up the possibility that God desires that humanity should “know” him in someway. True, we have no way to comprehend the infinite, but we can perceive enough to maybe make us want to learn more. Sure, we will never know “all” but you can learn “some.”

So, put lots of salt on those fry’s and enjoy that hamburger (knowing that in some religions you’re eating a potential god!).

No, the godhead sounds like Charleston Hesston.
“Get your stinking paws off me you damn dirty apes!” (whops wrong movie!)

Wheatgrinder

What's your favorite blasphemy (especially if you think it's true)?

Mine is from Stranger in a Strange Land:

"Thou art God" -Valentine Michael Smith

Religion is good for people who looking around need someone else to blame everything on, having forgotten that they mainly did it themselves.

Edit: I love making statements like that, which happens talking about something so broad and vast as "religion". To one person this might mean The Church, to another it might cover any belief in anything of a spiritual nature, and still others it might also include anything of meaning and devotion, known or unknown.

Here's a question: do you know what YOU are?

Coyote said:



Exactly. We are wheels within wheels and not everything in the universe is within our intellectual grasp. That's not to imply that one should not seek the answers - it merely means there is not enough available data (we agnostics believe) to impose upon ourselves (let alone anyone else) the notion that the powers that be are somehow categorically definable or even vaguely characterizable.

If there was no religion, then I'd assume somewhere down the line we lost the ability to imagine, rationalize, and believe.

-J

Actually, I don't think religion is the problem. It's what a lot of the Churches have done with it.

If there was no religion, we might have had a couple less wars, but I think a lot of the so called religious wars would have been fought for other reasons. We would still have societies that would have developed concepts of right and wrong, but there would be a lot more people who ignored the 'rights' of others. In response to that most governments would be police states, with very strict laws. There MIGHT be more prisons, but there would definately be a LOT more capital punishment. There would be a big business for government in providing organs to those who need them, that would be removed from those executed. There would probably be less rights guarenteed the individual. There would be more poverty and crime. There would be more communism and socialism. This is just a small sample of potential changes.

Ananda Sandgrain,
I grock you in fullness.

OT: That story was so full of 1960's bull.. think about it.. the general message was that: “if we all open our minds and learn the right things.. and have LOTS of sex (full grocking) humanity will then transcend.” How silly is that! But, hey sign me up!

Still, a fun read. I don’t think the “thou art god” comment is blasphemous at all, I find it very inline with my “fundamentalist Christian belief”

Wheatgrinder

I attribute that more to Heinlein's increasing age-related sexual frustrations (evident even more obviously in epics like "Time Enough For Love" and his final, sex-filled close-out "To Sail Beyond The Sunset" than any 60's-era "revolution." The book was written in 1960 and published in 1961. There was no revolution yet (no Beatles, no JFK, and the second wave of feminism had barely begun), and even if there had been, Heinlein was very open about his distaste for mock intellectualism (i.e. beatniks) and zealous religious dogma.

After all, anyone willing to parody the persecution of Jesus Christ with a post-modern, commercialized, religious corporation theme cannot be naive enough to believe transcendence comes from having lots of sex. I rather think Heinlein was adding parody on top of parody, all the while adding some beautiful colors to ideals which should NOT have been lost.

In order to really get where Heinlein is coming from in this book, it might be necessary to discard any notion that he was writing from an idealistic point of view. Reading "Methuselah's Children" (published some 20 years prior) also helps. Stranger In A Strange land is a better joke simply for the fact that only his fans really seem to get it as he intended it. It's a wonderful book either way.

And indeed, "Thou art God" was merely Valentine Michael Smith's way of conveying to others the message that God is within us all. I agree - that is hardly blasphemous, and it's probably a lesson we all could focus more on.

I grok. We shall all be water brothers some day, before we discorporate.

-J

Sex!?

To Grok is to understand and know completely and utterly, and thus to love.

This is something that is often missing when talking of religion, but to me this is a message that both Siddarta and Yeshua sought to bring to the world.

Take yourself back 10 millennia. Imagine yourself as a lowly caveman, only just having gained sentience. No longer do you just think of the universe as food, enemy or mate. (Although most guys have yet to do this ). The universe is a pretty scary place, and you don't know what to make of it.
So they did as we do today, take the tools available to explain the universe. Their only real tool was the mind. So they created an explanation for everything. Why the sun moved around the sky, what created the weather, why there were different animals, etc? Then as humanity grew and expanded from small tribes, our minds also grew. Eventually we needed answers to less primitive, less physical problems. We needed answers to the more esoteric and spiritual problems. Why do we exist, what is our purpose if any, and what happens after death?
In these more "enlightened" times we have answered the physical problems with a new religion science, but we have yet to answer the spiritual problems. Our science will need to grow a few millennia before we can answer those questions, maybe we will need a new "religion". That however is off the topic.
At the same time we grew, and developed as a sentient species those who had the answers started to have the power. I'm not saying that they didn't believe in their gods, but as the old adage goes.


Power corrupts,
Absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
They started making their gods more powerful. Some gained followers by being good, some by being vengeful, most by being both. The old polytheisms explained the universe in all its glory, but when things turned bad the people tried to change nature. Like we do today with pesticides, growth hormones, weather prediction etc, but they had to change nature with what they believed to be true, their gods. Everything from prayers to sacrifices, often to the priest cast. As the priests became more powerful and richer so did their gods.
Soon religious wars followed where the believers were made to fight those who believed differently to them, the strongest armies began to believe themselves the righteous ones. As they took over more land the religions grew in strength and more people believed in them. Soon new religion started emerging from the old ones, splitting the people, the priests and the power.
It is about now that the main religions of today started emerging. Most people know the history of them, or at least the history of Christianity. These splits brought about bigger, and deadlier wars than ever before. It was not the gods that were in question anymore, but the interpretation of the god's works. From Yhwh (?) to Jehovah to Allah massive wars ensued. Slowly the priests got more money, and more power and could not allow a "false" religion to take this away. As science, slowly and painfully, emerged to explain the physical, religion slowly lost its hold over that realm. Leaving only the spiritual to control, and does too this day.
I am not saying that religion is wrong. It was the best theory to fit the facts at the time. Just as I am not saying that science is right, it is just the best theory to fit the facts at this time. Also I am not saying that there are no gods. If there are they are beyond what we can comprehend at this time, but what I am saying is that organised religion is no more than the most despicable and underhanded of companies. Believe in your god, not your religion.

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I am the inlet and may become the outlet (if I choose) of unseen ideas (thought).

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I am the inlet and may become the outlet (if I choose) of unseen ideas (thought).