What should your content creators do next?

So I go to log in, preparing to do some more work on the FPS/RPG "usable anywhere in sl" game that Ive been working on for quite a while, Put a lot of time into, and had hoped to sell. Its very close to done, and when the new hud attachment is available on the main grid, It will make the game even better. But I'm hit with "changes to the TOS".
I'm temped to just click agree and log in so that I can finally finish my end of the work that my partner in this project is waiting for. But with my declining trust and faith in Linden Labs, I actually decided to read it, I mean REALLY read it this time.
(Some of these are edited just to make it shorter.)

6.4 says basically,
"We have a fictional currency, we own it, you do not. We can randomly shuffle it around,
Take it from everyone and give it all to one person, Double it, cut it in half, remove it totally,
or anything else we want to do. We do not owe you anything. We have no liability to you with the L$"

Ok so that has always been there more or less, But it got me thinking....


6.4.1 Currency Exchange. The Service currently includes......
LL is now providing this "service"
What do they have to say about the "Service" they provide?
4.2 Service Provider. You acknowledge that Linden is not a traditional game provider; instead
Linden acts as a venue and a service provider ... (snip)

1. (a) Linden will have the right but not the obligation to resolve disputes between Participants relating to the Service;
   
2. (b) to the extent Linden elects to resolve such disputes, it will do so in good faith based solely on the general rules and standards of the Service and will not make judgments regarding legal issues or claims;
   
3. (d) you hereby release Linden (and Linden's shareholders, partners, etc) from claims, demands and damages of every kind and nature, arising out of or in any way connected with Linden's resolution of disputes relating to the Service.
   

Ok so this seems to say,
"If we want to we can step in and resolve issues between people, And we can do it however we please. Whatever we say goes, and you release us of any (claims of every kind)." or.
(you can not take us to court if we decide to resolve something that we may consider as a dispute by forcing a game of rock paper scissors between you and some other party, And then give all of the losers L$ to the winner. or any other thing we may come up with on a whim.)

1.1 "you can use "Second life", secondlife.com, and lindenlab.com only if you agree to this TOS, By using or accessing this "service" in any way you are automatically agreeing to this TOS."

So.. If I put 50k L$ up for sale on LindeX and they change the TOS, I don't like the changes, I chose to disagree or decline it. But I go to cancel the order, Or withdraw my USD, I'm suddenly agreeing to the TOS? If I access my account to cancel it, change personal information, or simply check it, I'm agreeing to the tos? If I post on these forums about the TOS Im agreeing to the TOS?

7.1
(Linden has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account) without notice or liability to you. You understand and agree that:
(a) you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription,
any Land Use Fees, any Linden Dollars (L$) that you hold, or for anything else

7.3 We can change delete or whatever, any part of the service anytime just because a purple octopus named George wanted us to. "for any reason or no reason".

ok ok So that has all been there more or less But..

So I put US$300 worth of L$ on LindeX, LL decides terminate my account.
They do not have to give me that $300. If Gom were still around, My L$ would still eventually sell and I still would get my $300. or.. They Ban me, Remove my account and my L$ from the system, Someone buys the L$ at the exact same moment, they get shafted because Lindens system screws up. LL cant be held responsible for doing as they please with my L$ because its not actually mine, its theres and they can do whatever they want. AND LL cant be held responsible for the shafted party...
7.2 Linden will not be liable for any interruption of the Service, delay or failure to perform, (snip)
except as otherwise specifically provided in this Agreement you shall not be entitled to any refunds of fees for interruption of service or failure to perform.


Ok hm, but it says "except as otherwise specifically provided in this Agreement" so theres refunds here somewhere. ahh here it is.

3.8 You "will be eligible" to receive refunds for "recurring service fees" ie(monthly account fees, 90 Day account fees, annual account fees, and land use fees)
only if...

1. It is a 100% loss of service for at least 24 hours, Not "kinda working".
   
2. it wasn't "scheduled maintenance"
   
3. it wasn't Outside problems, (upstream providers, or your inbound connection)
   
4. it wasn't a hack, exploit etc that caused the problem
   
5. it wasn't on your end, ie computer problem
   
6. it wasn't because of a war, hurricane, sunspot, wormhole etc.
   
7. it wasn't the government that made us stop
   

Well ok, "lindens software messing up internally" isn't on that list so a refund will be granted phew, Or will it? Hm interestingly enough "a messed up trade" is NOT included in (monthly account fees, 90 Day account fees, annual account fees, and land use fees)

I see no effort to include "You will be refunded for errors in the Linden exchange system" into there shiny new TOS.
So they now have control over the currency, And the means to trade it, and By simply using the service you agree that They can do whatever they want moral, sain, or not. And that you have no say in the matter or recourse.


And some of the arguments as to why It is a good thing...
Q: What if GOM decided to close their doors tomorrow? "and they did but BECAUSE of this."
A: Well If that was LL's true concern, They could have quietly developed there exchange system, and only implemented it if needed. ie Just built it, and then made it available IF GOM went away.

Q: But it is needed. The idea is to make it easier for people to trade L$, especially new residents. don't you think that is important?

A: YES! very important, It should have been a priority MUCH sooner. for example...
llGiveMoney()
If this function had a return value, of some kind, a simple BOOL value wold have been plenty. The funny thing is, llGiveMoney DOES have a return. Its always 0 but it does. integer foo = llGiveMoney(yadda, yadda); will compile.
Now Linden labs does not just put the ability to treat a function as if it has a return value in any function for the hell of it.
Why then? Well ether ( A.) they wanted to put it there but never did, Or ( B.) It was there but disabled for us for some unknown reason.

if(A) They originally planed to give llGiveMoney a return value, But have had some sort of issue with the system that makes it difficult (and don't say impossible that goes 100% agents everything that computers are about), or They just haven't considered it a priority. (or both)
Ok well then If ether of those are true, Then personally I think that This should have 110% priority over any LL internal L$ exchange system. "in fact over many things chat bubbles for example" And im sure that anyone who understands the ways this could make services by 3rd parties much easier would agree, a return on llGiveMoney should take priority over just about anything.
Also in that same line of thought it would seem that LL would understand the same thing, and just do it.

So (A) doesn't work, If these were true, LL wouldn't spend precious resources on chat bubbles etc, Until something very important like this is working.

if(B)"It was there but disabled for us for some unknown reason."
So maybe they had it in place, tested it internally and said "it is good" but then came up with a reason not to give it to us. What in the world could that reason be?

Security risk? Hardly, If anything this would make just about all vending systems, and the like more secure. It would open the floodgates for more advanced banking systems, Commission vendors, automatic reoccurring payments, etc. As well as allow for things like depositing money to places like GOM super easy, not needing to find an atm, Just talk into your little pda or whatever "Deposit 5000" and its done. Secure and there system knows if the money got there successfully or not.

From this point the only other conclusion that I can draw is that LL DID NOT want us to have that power. They only wanted us to make things up to a point but not crossing some imaginary creativity line. Some point of successfulness. Sure it Is possible to be pretty darn successful in sl, As long as your business model does not rely on something that LL wants to do themselves it seems.

llName2Key()
Would have made things like registration Much simpler.

HTML in SL
This would basically give us the power to Put the service right in the system. right into the client, No need to open a separate browser. In fact if someone was so inclined, They could design a website to emulate the look and feel of the SL interface, " think about it, something like WinLike on the side of a prim, Or even right in your HUD!"


Q: "the problem is that this doesn't allow a person to bill the purchase to their SL credit card - you would still need to enter credit card information on the website you are mentioning."

A:
1. If thats REALLY a problem then Ebay would have never been successful. Why enter your information on some auction website when you can go to a local auction, Buy retail or whatever.
(speaking of ebay whatever happened to that $3,000,000 from one of the ebay founders? you know, the one that was supposed to help you hire more people and speed up development and bug fixing.) Or I guess a better questions is, What are the results of that investment? A bunch of new sims? Chat bubbles? Or does someone else now have a tighter grip on the SL strings? Hence the reason for the word "Siva" also known as "Shiva" (One of the principal Hindu deities, worshiped as the destroyer and restorer of worlds and in numerous other forms. Shiva is often conceived as a member of the triad also including Brahma and Vishnu.).

How about this one, Why doesn't the government just take over all of the businesses, They have ALL of my information already. Sure would make life much easier for me, If all of that power were in one nice neat easily abusable place. Especially If I didn't have to give my CC information to Linden Lab, because your service were duplicated using government funded systems etc.


The truth is I LIKE supporting the little guy, I will never buy a Dell, Gateway, etc, I will always build my own system or go to the local mom and pop owned computer shop. Even if it means I have to pull out my CC one more time and fill out more information "heaven forbid", AND even if it means that computer will cost $500 more.
(not to mention I will avoid restrictive propriatory crap)

Not everyone feels that way, But we have the choice, The government doesn't step in and Say there going to build and sell all computer components and software from now on.
And they didn't leave us with strategically placed roadblocks like "a return on llGiveMoney" to keep us from getting to successful.
And Why on earth cant it "allow a person to bill the purchase to their SL credit card"?
Why cant LL just make a resident to resident US$ transfer system?
Something that would be as simple as putting a "Buy Now using your SL account" button on any of these services.
In fact people could put it on there in world vendors, and get USD from there content and skip the L$ all together.
But people would still use the L$ because its the best way to help the impulse buying.


Oh and if targeting new residents, and making it easier for them is the goal then why are people under 45 days old restricted to..
"purchasing no more than US$20 worth of L$ per day and US$40 worth of L$ per month"
Thats a pretty damn tight restriction even if it is because the system is new.


And this is probably just a stupid assumption, But by the looks of things this is not going to be an "in world system" Its going to just be "You need more money, click here to go to the website" Just like "you need to tire up, click here to go to the website" Its sufficient, Does the job, Drives people to your service etc. Why spend any more dev time on actually putting a system in the viewer?
If that is the way it will be done then LL simply copied a residents business, and put a direct link to there service in SL.

But no it will be a REAL "In world" system right? right? Just like a real Linux client, Havok upgrade, etc etc etc.
Hek Ide really rather you didn't, LL couldn't even keep scripts safe, Yea I remember the hacked client not long ago.

Whats to stop someone from hacking the client and getting all of the sensitive information required to steal L$ or USD$ right from your website?
Or figure out how to send false data to some unsuspecting persons client that falsifies what they see for the market.
How would an event like that be treated?
"Our data shows that you did purchase it,
But it said 2500 not 250!,
Yea sure it did, you must have read it wrong, sorry!.
(Oh and even if it did you release LL of all liability simply by using the service in the first place.)"

Sure any fairly knowledgeable resident may catch something suspicious. But its the New people we are talking about right?

Many people have made small comparisons to Microsoft and LL. Talking about Netscape and whatnot.
Well I find it quite surprising that I do not see many "If any" comments about Microsoft's most recent BS-actions.
Speaking of course about the Fritz chip plans, The "Trusted computing alliance" etc.

Also there plans to muscle OpenGL out of the equation, What is LL going to do when Microsoft's next OS causes OpenGl applications a 50% performance drop as apposed to DirectX simply because a purple octopus named George wants them to?


I will not do anything at all that even remotely supports this, I have totally removed Windows from all of my machines and am currently using Ubuntu Linux.
When people come to me with computer problems, I will not support windows whatsoever. In fact my own mothers computer has been deemed unusable, and needs to have the OS reinstalled.
But I refuse to even touch a windows cd. She can ether let me install Linux or figure out how to "repair" her computer herself.
"its still sitting in my basement untouched"
And I couldn't be happier! More and more I'm finding Linux to be an Operating System, and Windows to be a "Toy" or simply a system that turns a computer into nothing more than an appliance.
Even if Microsoft suddenly released there OS Open source, apologized publicly and discontinued there BS, I would still be perfectly happy with Linux.


Unfortunately there is no quick alternative to Second Life.
Well the truth is, Someone will eventually. Your in a maze of twisty little passages all alike.
But because of the directions you are choosing, Anyone could come along and finish there maze and get to that island quicker than you, Even if they started years after you.
Or to put it more bluntly, LL is going the wrong direction, Making choices that are counterproductive to there Main Goal (Making a true meta verse, "the next Internet"
ether
(A) someone who does not share that Main Goal is pulling the strings.
(B) LL has lost sight of that goal
(C) That was never LL's True goal, It was just another part of the marketing gimmick.
"Your world , your imagination", Your IP belongs to you, ...-fine print- "But we can take whatever you make and use it however we want, By simply using the service you give us that right."
5.3 by submitting your Content to any area of the service, you automatically grant to Linden:
(a) a royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to use and reproduce (and to authorize third parties to use and reproduce) any of your Content in any or all media for marketing and/or promotional purposes in connection with the Service;
(b) the perpetual and irrevocable right to delete any or all of your Content from Linden's servers and from the Service, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and for any reason or no reason, without any liability of any kind to you or any other party; and
(c) a royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing and/or providing support services in connection with the Service.
You also understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the Service, you automatically grant to Linden and to all other Participants a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, transferable, irrevocable, royalty-free and perpetual License, under any and all patent rights you may have or obtain with respect to your Content, to use your Content for all purposes within the Service. You further agree that you will not make any claims against Linden or against other Participants based on any allegations that any activites (its “activities” btw) by either of the foregoing within the Service infringe your (or anyone else's) patent rights.


Now because of all of this, Ether I must grin and bare it, and Agree so that I can log in and finish my work.
Or one of your "content creators" are out big. Lots of Money and Time invested into a project that he will be unable to finish because I cant even log in to do the work.

And Even if I do click the button, Im still not so sure that im motivated to make something that LL can just take and do with as they please.
"Yea I know don't flatter yourself commoner" But hey from what I see it could definitely happen, and By logging in Im giving you permission to do so.

What should your content creators do next?

Agree, log in, finish the game you've spent so long making. For the greater part these things are just "cover my ass" deals by companies. The asset server messes up and they can't recover 20% of your inventory? You can't sue. That kinda thing.

After all, Linden Labs will lose revenue if they maliciously abuse the power the TOS grants them (power they already had, but now its official so you cant sue them) which means they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Basically Linden Labs isn't likely to bite the hand that feeds it, they're just trying to make sure that the hand doesn't smack them either.

As LordJason points out, the new TOS explicitly states that LL can take any of your content and distribute/use at their own whim ("5.3 by submitting your Content to any area of the service, you automatically grant to Linden:
(a) a royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to use and reproduce (and to authorize third parties to use and reproduce) any of your Content in any or all media for marketing and/or promotional purposes in connection with the Service;".

Basically, if LordJason finishes his game and it takes off and starts becoming wildly popular, there is *nothing* stopping LL from hitting their magic "copy" button and 100% reproducing what he has created. The TOS allows them to do that with *any* content a user uploads.

Picture this: You work for weeks in Photoshop to design a line of hundreds of pieces of clothing, and upload them with the intent to sell them and establish yourself as a premier designer. You log in a day later and find they have been taken and included as part of the default newbie package. The TOS says they can do that, and you have no recourse. Who wouldn't love to have the entire Preen/En Nomine/whatever catalog as part of the free default wardrobe?

"CYA" language or not, this is what you're agreeing to. Unlimited right for LL to copy, use, and reproduce any of your content.

As does every other online company in existence.

Geocities retains the right to copy your page's source and use it for whatever.

Ultima Online retains the right to take away all of your swords for whatever reason.

And so on.

It's legal CYA stuff. It's old stuff, been around since the mid 90's.

LF

That clause has a very specific "for marketing and/or promotional purposes" limitation put on it, which is noteworthy from a legal standpoint. That is the key. It states that they can take any content and use it for marketing purposes - IE, for marketing campaigns, in pictures on the web site, in magazine articles, videos, etc, without having to get your permission or owe you any money for doing so. It this regard, the TOS is no different from other sites, such as blog and photo sharing sites, which have similar claues in their TOS. Snapzilla has a similar clause in its TOS. The users submitting the pictures retain the copyright on their pictures, however, they agree that by submitting them, they can be used for promotional purposes in relation to the site.

I admit, I am not a huge fan of the new TOS, but this particular clause doesn't concern me as I have seen it many times before.

Emma, I agree that it's mostly "cover their ass" stuff. It's located in most everything you buy these days. Though, on the other side of that fence, my bank LOVES to lean on that part of their TOS to never be held responsible when they make mistakes with my account.

In business, it's super to cover your butt, but it sucks when they absolve themselves from any responsibility, compasion, or the need for compensation.


Ricky, I would hate to think LL would snag someone's idea and make it their own. I mean I seriously doubt they would... I don't see why they would, but they are making it clear that they would if they needed to. Very disconcerting.

Lots of people are freely designing their dream projects, while sometimes paying and compensating LL for use of their platform. At some point, LL could close the doors and sell off all the good concepts to game, fashion, music, art places all over.
I know that's a flight of fancy, but that part makes me think of those bogus "get your invention copyrighted" commercials, when you know what they are doing is scooping up ideas that they take as their own and turn into as-seen-on-tv products.


Okay, read that paragraph stating that they can take your idea...

As it is, it is just a statement, but say it was enacted, word for word as the statement is.

And just to be sure, they make sure you have no recourse, or fair compensation for what that act is... robbery.

Emminent Domain is bullocks in real life. This is kind of the same. Freaky stuff to think about. Whether or not they intend to. They want to make sure they are covered if they do.

Why?

As a future urban planner, I heartily disagree

In the States, the latest supreme court decision (giving muncipalities the right to enact eminent domain practically for anything) is going too far, but the original idea is absolutely necessary.

Were it not for eminent domain, you wouldn't have a highway system, or most roads, for one thing (you think a farmer is going to let some crazy dudes from washington build a freeway down his lawn, even if it means connecting chicago to detroit and making commerce infinitely more efficient?). Or most railroads, actually.

Eminent domain is absolutely required for any sort of infrastructure work.

And before we go off on a tangent, it's my opinion that the service GOM was providing was, essentially, infrastructure for the economy.

Just my two cents.

LF

If it's just for advertisment and promotion; from my point of view I don't mind that so much.

If it's a clause to use my creations or ideas as their own... Or if it can be twisted to allow that...

I'm reading over the TOS again.

"Join Second Life now and receive a full line of clothes from our top designers for FREE!"

Sounds like a great promotion to me!

Wish I had the attention span to read a novel on the forums... looked like an interesting post until it failed the one hand rule. As Ulrika once said, if the post is longer than my hand I won't read it. So maybe I'll just read all the responses and gleam what was said in the first post.

I know what you are talking about Lordfly, and you are right... But as of last I've heard, the government's idea of fair compensation for the land they take is way disproportianate to what the land is truly worth. They wiped out an entire farm here for wal-mart and didn't give the owners a cent. My long time friend in Virginia's uncle lost almost his entire estate and was paid only $40 an acre, when all surrounding land was a couple thousand an acre. So for 20 acres of land, he had to take it and smile to the tune of $800. Not even enough to buy 1 acre anywhere.

Sentiment aside, it doesn't matter so much if you are adequately compensated, but in reality I don't think anyone is with emminent domain (from my experience and reading)

If you lose out on some or all of what your properties are worth, it's all the same. All, some or most of compensation... it's shortchanging, the degree doesn't matter.


But yeah, emminent domain is needed for many reasons, so I agree there. I am just showing the merit of his argument... that there is a icky reason for having that catch-all statement in the TOS.

That is taking it to such a ridiculous extreme. Linden Lab is not stupid. A statement like that just adds FUD that is not necessary.

How about this one,

You also understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the Service, you automatically grant to Linden and to all other Participants a non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, transferable, irrevocable, royalty-free and perpetual License, under any and all patent rights you may have or obtain with respect to your Content, to use your Content for all purposes within the Service.

and "within the Service", well thats ok lets just add a clothing browser and make it a part of "The service"

or lets just make an exchange system and make it a part of "the service"

And I still dont see any effort to include (You will be refunded for errors in the Linden exchange system) in the TOS.
Is this a mistake? They obveously spent enough time revising the tos to add a lot of information about there exchange system. But nothing saying "We will refund all losses due to errors".
In fact what they have is to the contrary.
7.2 Linden will not be liable for any interruption of the Service, delay or failure to perform, (snip)
except as otherwise specifically provided in this Agreement you shall not be entitled to any refunds of fees for interruption of service or failure to perform.

Yeah, all that CYA language in the ToS really isn't such a big deal.

Until you lose all your hard work due to a database bug, which costs you hundreds of RL dollars (which you spent buying the $L to pay the upload fees), that LL ultimately responds to by saying, 'Gee, so sorry, bad bug, we can't do a damn thing about it... guess you get to start over, dude.' and when you finally realise any right you had to recourse you signed away on a click through EULA, you finally understand -- that really IS a big deal.

That EULA really isn't a 'click through', it's a 'fuck through'. I haven't logged in since it went up and won't as long as it remains... so you may as well say my SL days are over.

Exactly. Linden Lab is not stupid. Why do you think that clause is in there? Because they're not stupid.

They're also not your friends, and if there is something in their TOS they can use to their advantage, there's no reason to think they won't. If it becomes advantageous from their business point of view to, as another example, add in every single one of your ANOmations as defaults you can bet your last L$ they will.

Please the stuff your talking about has always been in the TOS... if you feel that way, you should of never logged in in the first place. They've never provide compensation for lost stuff.

Cienna,

With all due respect, it has been that way the entire time. Several people have suffered severe inventory loss at the hands of LL's bugs and inadequate backups, never to compensated for any of it. It is a scary prospect, I admit. Hell, it is why I am doing the builk of my work outside of SL these days. There is zero protection for our work, we have no ability to backup our inventory ourselves, and Linden Lab's solution was to beef up the TOS to make it even more clear that we are totally fucked. However, that is nothing new, unfortunately, which is why I am not up in arms about the TOS.

When Schwanson's inventory was half destroyed, they didn't compensate him. They just said "woops". It's fucking outrageous, it just doesn't happen to be new to this version of the TOS. They are a service provider when it suits them, but they don't begin to provide even the basics of what a service provider acting as a hosting company should provide. That is a shame, and is a major component to my reduced involvement in Second Life.

removes your snip and puts back in the context that was wierdly taking out!

"***As it is, it is just a statement, but say it was enacted, word for word as the statement is.*** >>>>>bling bling blingity bling flashing lights<<<<<

And just to be sure, they make sure you have no recourse, or fair compensation for what that act is... robbery."

Ricky, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't LL offer to buy you out and you declined? If they're such evil greedy lowlifes, why did they bother to offer you compensation?

Yeah, this is a problem. We need to rally around this point and make our feelings known.

It's a HUGE gaping hole that effects absolutely every single content creator in SL.

I was just trying to save space.

I found your post ironic, especially considering it was addressed to Ricky, co-founder of GOM....

Run around for 10 minutes screaming OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING! then have a smoke and get back to making shit.

Sorry Schwanson, in Linear mode, the only mode I need to be in really, it looks like there is only one reply button. So I thought I was replying to the whole conversation.


Question is, why would a long post about a theoretical TOS issue that has the word "robbery" in it + Ricky and GOM be ironic?

Not to be a butt about this, but my original post is obviously about the main topic. It seems like you just saw the word "robbery" and somehow associated it with GOM without reading the whole thing.

I don't associate GOM with robbery, do you? I don't see any irony. If I put those two words together, I would see "incompatible" or "irellevant" or "nonsensical"

LOLOL well said