What's your view on androgynous SLers? ;)

Check out the 1st Life picture thread Bridget! I think androgyny is well represented here.

Ingrid, I think it's interesting to hear your viewpoint on how you find it hard to relate to someone if you can't pin them into one category or the other. I say that because I have a hard time relating if I have to think of someone as male or female and not just as a being. I'm one of those beings who, if other people try to relate to me as wholly male or wholly female they are just getting it wrong. It's not that I try to confuse people, or make things hard to figure out. I simply am naturally somewhere in between. The people I get along with best are often a mix as well, even if they identify more with one gender or the other. That group seems to include a lot of left-handers for some reason.

Oh, and if you see me inworld ever (hah!) I don't mind either pronoun. I like feminine ones more, because it grates on me in RL that I keep getting called 'sir' more and more often as I get older.

I can sympathize on the pronoun-trouble; it seems rather rude to call someone of indeterminate gender "it" if they're not a robot or somesuch.. And in some ways, gender confusion can affect someone even if gender's obvious. I have a very obviously male name, but I recently began wearing a very obviously female av. I was hesitant to do so at first, feeling that it'd be rather odd. Thankfully, no-one seemed to have a problem with it at all, so.. Yay.

Nonono! I think you mis-understand. I never said it was evil or sexist to make assumptions, or, generally, in any way bad or destructive, in this sense, at least. I'm just saying it's a comfort zone that people get into. In our world, pretty much every animal we have daily contact with is either male or female. Humans are all male or female. People who have a baby don't send cards that say "It's a human! ". You know?

Every day, we unconsciously just accept that all people are one or the other and also unconsciously accept the stereotypes that go with each gender. And I'm not talking about Pink and Kittens = Girl, Trucks and Mud = Boy, or even anything that is easily recognizable. We all make assumptions about people based on what we have experienced in the past.

Humans, by nature, notice and expect patterns. So it makes sense! And gender is almost undoubtedly the biggest and most historically popular thing to divide people on because, yes, the genders are extremely different. We process things in different ways, we problem-solve differently, we pay attention to different things, we have different strengths and weaknesses, etc. etc. etc.! It's something that every person learns as they grow up, whether they are conscious of it or not.

If a friend tells you all about a new friend of hers without mentioning a gender, your perception of them might be rather vague and seem "incomplete". But as soon as she mentions a gender, the picture will seem a lot more clear! It -is- just one small fact, but just by knowing that, we start to think and assume all sorts of things about them.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with that! But, like I said, I want people to think outside of their comfort zone. I want people to wonder about my gender and then step back and say, "..Hm, I wonder why I think that!" I know that probably doesn't actually happen, but I'd like to at least think that I'm giving people the opportunity to learn something new about themselves.

My whole life is about instilling a deeper understanding in myself and the people around me. Occassionally, that means putting people in a semi-uncomfortable position. Their brains scream "ERROR" and they just stand there and don't know what to do. Not EVERYONE wants to be put in that position, though, and I understand that. Which is why I am always honest when asked questions about myself and why I do the things I do. But until I am asked definite questions, I will continue to be elusive and try to make everyone guess. Because guessing and second-guessing is where the learning is!

Nikolaii is my favorite robot and/or computer virus

I think I am in love with Nikolaii

Aww, you guys.

Aside from mechanicals/robots, animals and the downright hideous who-knows-what, I find myself strangely attracted to true androgyny

I have first dibs!

What the.. XD

Interesting. Not only don't you know the rl gender of the person you are talking to - but you don't know their culture/location either.

We don't have any frames of reference.

I'd hate to think that someone could see my female avi and try and talk to me about US daytime television or something.

No but if its a male AV, i'm less likely to offend someone by calling this player "he" since this player chose to present himself this way to the world.




Why would someone talk to your female AV about daytime television?

If someone is smart or good-looking, then I don't care how good-looking or smart they are.

It depends what you mean by "frames of reference" - that's more than appropritate pronouns, surely?

Women are supposed to be more social creatures - interested in family and the family gossip they get from soaps. When we are not catching up on celebrity gossip we are trying fad diets and buying snake oil to make us look younger.

Thankfully I don't seem to conform to media created gendered behaviour.

<\Feminist Rant>

Hahahahaha!

It's funny 'cause it's true.

That's your feminist rant? I'd say it's the exact opposite.

Why do you assume a female "frame of reference" includes gossip, day time TV and fad diets? I can't remember when my female friends and I have discussed any of those things.

</feminist rant.>

Anywho I think we're on the same page but I hate the thought of women trying to hide their feminity because they feel they can't be taken seriously otherwise.

1. THINGY (thing-ee) n.
Female...... Any part under a car's hood.
Male..... The strap fastener on a woman's bra.

2. VULNERABLE (vul-ne-ra-bel) adj.
Female.... Fully opening up one's self emotionally to another.
Male.... Playing football without a cup.

3. COMMUNICATION (ko-myoo-ni-kay-shon) n.
Female... The open sharing of thoughts and feelings with one's
partner.
Male... Leaving a note before taking off on a fishing trip with the
boys.

4. COMMITMENT (ko-mit-ment) n.
Female.... A desire to get married and raise a family.
Male...... Trying not to hit on other women while out with this one.

5. ENTERTAINMENT (en-ter-tayn-ment) n.
Female.... A good movie, concert, play or book.
Male...... Anything that can be done while drinking beer.

6. FLATULENCE (flach-u-lens) n.
Female.... An embarrassing byproduct of indigestion.
Male...... A source of entertainment, self-expression, male bonding.

7 MAKING LOVE (may-king luv) n.
Female...... The greatest expression of intimacy a couple can achieve.
Male.. Call it whatever you want, just as long as we do it.

8. REMOTE CONTROL (ri-moht kon-trohl) n.
Female.... A device for changing from one TV channel to another.
Male... A device for scanning through all 375 channels every 5
minutes.


AND;

He said . . . I don't know why you wear a bra; you've got nothing to
put in it.
She said . . . You wear pants don't you?

He said . . ..... Shall we try swapping positions tonight?
She said . That's a good idea - you stand by the ironing board while I
sit on the sofa and fart!

He said . ... What have you been doing with all the grocery money I
gave you?
She said . .....Turn sideways and look in the mirror!

He said . . ..... Why don't you tell me when you have an orgasm?
She said . . .. I would but you're never there.

He said . ..... Why don't women blink during foreplay?
She said . . They don't have time

He said . . How many men does it take to change a roll of toilet
paper?
She said . . We don't know; it has never happened.

He said . . Why is it difficult to find men who are sensitive, caring
and Good- looking?
She said ...... . . They already have boyfriends.

She said...What do you call a women who knows where her husband is
every night?
He said . . . A widow.

He said . .. . Why are married women heavier than single women?
She said . . . Single women come home, see what's in the fridge and go
to bed. Married women come home, see what's in bed and go to the fridge.

Not from where I'm from.

Well, I tend to think it *is* sexist and *is* evil because it's small-minded, insular, provincial, and arrogant, and those things tend toward the evil, IMHO. If you don't think it's about those things, take a second look. It is.

What that attitude says is "me and my comfort zone uber alles". Somebody might chose something *else* for *their* comfort zone, but, as I've so often noted about the FIC in SL -- it's all about "your imagination" and "my adaptation," hmmm? Someone else's comfort zone doesn't matter -- it's only about "mine".

I think what's particularly evil is when someone experiences that discomfort and that confusion, and then begins to claw at it, and then seeks to find out what someone's RL gender is, so they can "comfort themselves" that they "know where they stand finally" and then can start calling that person the label that they find "comforting".

In doing so, they are oblivious to the fact that, like the sign says on the log-in, they are "ruining someone's second life." They can spread that gossip that was merely a function of their own "comfort level" throughout the game, often accompanied by malicious glee, and then triumph in their small-minded, provincial smugness -- yecth. It really is unattractive!

Then they can try to get away with that malicious and violent act they've committed -- all in the name of their own "comfort zone" -- by saying they've struck a blow "against deception" or "against a hated personality in the game". Bullshit. It's the same small-minded insular provincialism that it was when it started. Supposedly there is "tolerance" -- but the tolerance ends the minute they can grab hold of the cudgel of accusing someone of "deception". How do you know it is deception? Who are you to judge?

There can be no "blurring of gender lines" and "freedom in SL" and all of these marvelous things as long as people are fishing through people's real lives and trying to "out" them or "shame them" or "catch them with gotcha" or do all of the things that are in fact violations of the TOS, and violations of the TOS for which we've had crystal-clear interpretations. All of those who are so gung-ho about blurring and mixing and matching genders have to stand by this.

I could also make a few pointed remarks about how everyone has all the tolerance in the world for male-to-female gender-bending -- they celebrate it -- but almost none when it comes to female-to-male gender bending. It's a function of their small-mindedness and provinciality -- the kind that, as I've noted in the Nazi thread, actually replicates and gains traction on the Internet, when you would have thought that the Internet was the place to open someone's mind.

It's not.

I'm also chilled by the idea that blurring gender lines then becomes something about their absence, something about robots. I guess I will await a coming-out party by a certain robot who will then be revealed to be Artificial Intelligence -- that is intelligence that was pretty fake all along.

I was actually interested to hear your opinion on this subject matter, but you dropped the F bomb and lost me.

So you're saying when I look at my best friend and recognize that she's female, I am being small minded, provincial and arrogant. Interesting leap. And irrational.

Says who? Why are you bringing your fic crap into this? Lots of fic are furries and gender neutral avatars. You're full of baloney.

And the rest of your post is about your own problems you've had with people finding out your personal info, which was wrong... and has been discussed at length already.

Heh actually, not so much here, either- a bad example? Maybe someone in a tux? (And if the answer is still "not where I'm from", hook me up with a plane ticket -g-).

Ohh. Cool thread. I have no problem with androgynous SLers. The truth is, gender lines are not as easy to determine as one may think. A good author to look up on the subject is Kate Bornstein who is a M2F trasnsexual. She has made a career in deconstructing many outdated notions of gender and showing the parallels between gender segregation and class segregation. She also has a great sense of humor.

But my personal policy? Once I get to know you, I will treat you however you want to be treated. Before I get to know you I will pick up on the gender ques of your av and go with that. If you don't give me gender ques (maybe I never saw your av and you have a gender neutral name) I will take a guess. Most people will politely correct me if I got it wrong.

I for one have never purchased snake oil, nor have I seen it. Guess I'm missing out.