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I'm breaking the law?

Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
09-16-2005 07:19
This should explain it all... please post your comments and thoughts on this:

Law Breaker: hey just a FYI for you. The "no refund" policy you have, might violate a few RL laws in a few states, you should check into it. I know for players of SL in the state of CA, we have some laws that say internet sales (including in game ones) have the same
Law Breaker: inforced 30day return policy as RL brick and Morter sales, that might be something you want to check into before someone pitches a fit at you.
Sensual Casanova: lol well if I dont reside in CA then I am not breaking any law
Law Breaker: no no you missunderstand, you dont have to reside in CA, thats the problem im bringing up to you. See internet sales, are regulated by the state the purchacer, not the seller, is in.
Sensual Casanova: hehe
Law Breaker: just thought you might want to take a look at the leagality so it wont come back to haunt you later. I run a RL internet biz and have had issues with that
Sensual Casanova: well I am not worried about it
Law Breaker: hey, your thing, just gave ya a heads up
Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
09-16-2005 07:26
o.O does he mean a 30 day return on items sold in SL? seems silly.. buyer beware and all that crap!
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no u!
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
09-16-2005 07:27
And now you know another reason why I dont sell crap in SL :P
Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
09-16-2005 07:29
We sell stuff in SL for play money (L$s), not real-world currency; hence, I believe the law this player cited doesn't apply. (This is the same justification used for in-game gambling, it seems to apply here, as well.)
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
09-16-2005 07:31
Last I checked, CA was unable to project sovereignity outside anything but its own borders.

Furthermore, because it's not "real" currency (ie play money as defined in the ToS), you're fine.

Just another trouble maker trying to cause a ruckus.

LF
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
09-16-2005 07:34
I think the guy actually has a valid point, and I've got my legal team looking into this now. No really.
Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
09-16-2005 07:35
Well I wasn't too worried as you can tell by the chat log, but then after speaking to him I began to wonder... lol
Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
09-16-2005 07:36
There are some vague exceptions with the CA state law.

Exceptions

Certain merchandise either is not returnable by its nature or is not considered to be returnable. The requirements of Civil Code section 1723 do not apply to any of the following kinds of merchandise:

Food, plants, flowers, and perishable goods.


Goods marked "as is," "no returns accepted," "all sales final," or with similar language.


Goods used or damaged after purchase.


Customized goods received as ordered


Goods not returned with their original package.


Goods which cannot be resold due to health considerations
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Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
09-16-2005 07:36
From: Taco Rubio
I think the guy actually has a valid point, and I've got my legal team looking into this now. No really.


I knew I could count on you Taco :P
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
09-16-2005 07:37
The day lawyers start taking $Lindens for payment, we can worry.
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Fushichou Mfume
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 182
09-16-2005 07:42
It's worth looking into so that you can be sure, but I'm fairly certain of two points:

1. You are not governed by any state's law unless you have a business address in that state. Meaning, you have a DBA registered in some county in that state, a street address where you have an office or retail outlet in that state, etc. If none of those apply, you are not governed by the laws of that state. This is why, for example, most credit card companies reside in Nevada and a few North East states. Those few states in which their offices are located allow them to legally charge the ridiculous, usurious interest rates so common today. MOST states in the U.S. have usury laws that prevent any creditor from charging over x percent interest for a loan or credit. Yet these credit card companies do business all over the U.S.

2. SL currency is NOT U.S. currency. A player can earn enough SL currency in-GAME (lol, yes it's a frikkin' game) to "purchase" in-game items. No real-world currency is needed. I'm pretty sure that point right there negates *any* state law from governing your sales transactions.

Perhaps there are two real exceptions to point number 2, though.

- The land auctions by LL to buyers are for real-world cash only, so I'm pretty sure that LL is governed by the laws of California in that regard.

- If you sell your products through SLExchange or any other web service that allows player to pay with real world money instead of ONLY with L$, then point 2 is certainly negated. If you sell through SLExchange, for example, you are most certainly governed by the retail laws of your own state. Moral of the story? Don't sell anything you make for real-world cash unless you are prepared to stand by your product and unless you are aware of the retail laws of your state of residence.

Caveat Emptor - there are a lot of crappy, shoddy products being sold in SL.
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
09-16-2005 07:43
From: Beau Perkins
....The requirements of Civil Code section 1723 do not apply to any ...


Yeah it's 17538 I'm looking at though.
Ben Bacon
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 809
09-16-2005 07:58
From: Cindy Claveau
The day lawyers start taking $Lindens for payment, we can worry.
lawyers taking $Lindens for payment
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-16-2005 08:00
From: Taco Rubio
I think the guy actually has a valid point, and I've got my legal team looking into this now. No really.
What kind of Fascist dictatorship would even *have* a law like that anyway? Forced to implement a 30 day refund policy? Talk about government intruding into your life, sheesh! :)
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black
art furniture & classic clothing
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
09-16-2005 08:09
If this guy has a point, how does ebay work? eh? I'd be curious to know.
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Hiro Pendragon
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
09-16-2005 08:10
From: Dianne Mechanique
What kind of Fascist dictatorship would even *have* a law like that anyway? Forced to implement a 30 day refund policy? Talk about government intruding into your life, sheesh! :)


This is America! The whole point of this system of government is to protect people*, and the refund law is an example.



*mainly people who nature would weed out, such as those not smart enough to wear a helmet on a motorcycle, look both ways before crossing a street, etc.
Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
09-16-2005 08:11
Hmmm, I always thought that what laws applied to an internet enterprise where determined by the physical location of the server(s) the enterprise operated through.

According to Neo-Trace that's California USA (state laws), The United States of America (Federal Laws).
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-16-2005 08:12
From: Beau Perkins
... and perishable goods....
Probly someone else has said this but wouldn't goods that only exist in cyberspace be "perishable" or temporary by their very nature?
I could sell something to you and be unable to refund it based on the fact that the server blew up (not my server) and therefore the goods are non-existent, right?
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black
art furniture & classic clothing
===================
Black in Neufreistadt
Black @ ONE
Black @ www.SLBoutique.com


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Fox Stirling
Certified Lunatic
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 120
09-16-2005 08:15
Just a thought...
Wouldn't SL items be looked upon the same way most software is? Once opened (in this case transfered) it can not be refunded since there is no way to either actually return it (no transfer) or prove that you no longer have/use the product? Its kind of a one shot deal I would think.

Fox
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
09-16-2005 08:19
Another severe case of "GaLL"...


Get a Life, Loser!


Stick it to him, Sensual. :-)

-Flip
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Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
09-16-2005 08:29
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
Another severe case of "GaLL"...


Get a Life, Loser!


Stick it to him, Sensual. :-)

-Flip


LOL... Can I use yours to stick him with? :p

Ok... that was really bad, and too damn early for that ...
Chosen Few
Alpha Channel Slave
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 7,496
09-16-2005 08:48
I'm suprised no one has brought this up yet, but sales in SL are not sales at all. Linden Dollars are not legal tender. However real SL may or may not be to each of us who "live" in it, if you want to talk about the implications of RL laws, then you have to go with RL standards, and the Linden Dollar is not one of them. Technically, when you "buy" something in SL, all you're doing in a real world sense is what amounts to altering your score in a video game. Think of it like if you were playing Starcraft and you traded in some minerals to build a bunker. You wouldn't have 30 days to return the bunker, whether you think you got it in California or anywhere else. You may feel that you spent hard-earned inworld currency on it so therefore you have consumer rights, but according to RL standards, you did nothing of the kind. All you did was alter your state of play within the game. That's it.

Now, you might say "Wait a minute. Linden Dollars are currency because I can trade them for US dollars." Well, someone traded a piece of toast that looked like Michael Jackson on Ebay for US dollars too, but that doesn't mean that that slice of freaky bread was inherently worth anything or that it somehow became currency. It's just that someone felt it was worth parting with some money in order to have it.

It's the same with Linden Dollars. Just because some people are willing to part with their US dollars in order to aquire them doesn't make them currency. Just because there are a few money market exchange style websites where you can buy them doesn't make them currency either. There are echanges for all kinds of things. It doesn't mean anything except that certain people want to buy whatever's being "exchanged".

If you really want to get technical, buying $L amounts to hiring a servicer. You didn't want to go through what it takes to accumulate the $L yourself so you hired someone to do it for you. That person may have gotten the $L by trading inworld items for them or by mugging avatars on every street corner, but none of that is important. All that happened was he or she did the labor required to collect the $L and you paid him or her $US for having done that. Nothing in that process makes inworld trading into any sort of RL sales. The only actual sale involved at all was the purchase of the $L collection service, and trying to assign what RL region has sovereignty over that is such a legal gray area, it's gonna take an act of congress to settle (and one day it will), but again, that has nothing to do with inworld trade.
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
09-16-2005 08:59
From: Beau Perkins
Goods not returned with their original package.
No-transfer goods cannot be returned at all, with or without "packaging". Perhaps we should set everything no-transfer just to add one more hurdle, particularly when selling for US$ via the websites?
Anya Dmytryk
i <3 woxy!
Join date: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 413
09-16-2005 09:05
you are not purchasing items in SL with real currency. while lindens can be exchanged for dollars, you are not purchasing items with dollars. so i doubt the laws would apply.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
09-16-2005 09:37
From: Chosen Few
Now, you might say "Wait a minute. Linden Dollars are currency because I can trade them for US dollars." Well, someone traded a piece of toast that looked like Michael Jackson on Ebay for US dollars too, but that doesn't mean that that slice of freaky bread was inherently worth anything or that it somehow became currency. It's just that someone felt it was worth parting with some money in order to have it.


Ah, Chosen, you are fast becoming my favorite SL/RL business commentator. Very astute, as usual.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


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