A few words on honesty... a discussion.

This is cross-posted from my blog... because my blog is so rarely updated, it's small wonder it didn't generate any sort of response. Let's try throwing it onto the general fora.

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As SL's second anniversary passes us by, let us take the time to reflect on the virtual world around us. And indeed, on ourselves.

We have here, what may or may not be, a veritable revolution in socializing and communication. By competing, living, and hanging out in a 100% resident-controlled world, we have real power over our existence. Our surroundings. We have the potential of dropping all barriers to communication, to understanding each other and bringing about world peace, or something.

And yet, even when granted this extraordinary tool for self-exploration and 21st century socializing, we manage to wall ourselves off from each other. Sometimes, more so in SL than we would in RL.

We lie about our jobs.

We lie about our true intentions.

We lie about our ages.

We lie about our gender.

We lie about our relationships.

We wall off our feelings in grandiose displays of furrydom or BDSM powergames or building megatowers or engaging in monopolistic business practices or shooting random passerby with nuclear warheads.

We shun those that are different.

We reject those that do not share our beliefs and convictions.

Are these all symptoms of a twisted and demented online metaverse, or is this merely a virtual, exaggerated extension of the real world?

If the former... what can we do to change it? How could we foster a true virtual world of relative openess, a social Glasnost that is the envy of online spaces? Would we even want to?

If the latter... well, I guess we're all screwed then, aren't we?

I find it disheartening at the least that in a world that, on the surface, seems to be extremely forgiving, liberal, and otherwise open to new ideas and beliefs, us creatures on the individual level are still preventing others from seeing who we really are, by hiding away in our virtual extensions of ourselves. Burying our emotions and reactions into sub-cultured roleplaying that is meant to marginalize anything bad that happens. Switching roles and stories as easily as switching IM conversations.

So, here's hoping to an honesty Renaissance. I have nothing to hide... do you?

LF

I understand what you are saying Lordfly. I've seen what you describe happen time and again first hand. It boggles me though as to why it happens. I think this is could make for a very interesting topic to discuss.

The reasons why it boggles me is for the simple fact that the examples of lies you give, are ones I have never told. Aside from the way Pen looks, she is me and I am an open book. What you know of me in SL is what I am in RL. Many know a variety of personal details about me, and I"ve never felt the need to lie about myself. I've even described my "looks" differences and have a RL photo of myself in my 1st life profile.

I don't seperate SL from RL. A second life to me is not an alternate reality. It is to me an extention of my first one. So I feel no need to lie. If anything, I am able to be *more* my true self in this world than in my first.

I am not one to say that others do not have vaild reasons for hiding their true selves. Sometimes it is not always as black and white as a lie or truth. I just know for my own personal self.. I will always be what I have always been. I am what I am and I even like spinach.

On the one hand, I agree with the general intent, but do not be so quick to reject "pretending", either. What makes a person who wants to be a fox-human or whatever so much less "honest" than someone else, save the unlikelihood that they are really a physical match to their avatar.

I have a principle of myself I do not break; I am always me. My favorite hobby is roleplaying games, therefore I like to assure people that outside that context, I am consistently me. Even if I'm looking like a tiny grenade-throwing squirrel at the time.

LF, that was very thought provoking

We do have so much power over our existence here and it strikes me that our disagreements spring from the promise of controlling our surroundings in a way that we cannot possibly hope to in RL. Here you can control your surroundings on your land, but not your neighbors. You can want control of your surroundings badly enough to own a private island, but sometimes you have to leave and face all the things you can’t control. We FEEL like we should have more control than we do, we think we’ve been promised “your world”, but it really isn’t. It’s your world, my world, his world, their world….

We do build barriers here in SL, in RL those barriers are based on gender, sexuality, race, color, religion, money, class and education. In SL we create barriers based on aesthetic tastes. We like to be near those with similar tastes, things that feel comfortable to our eyes and ears.

Some do live SL lies, but can you really blame them? SL provides a platform for people to be things they’ve always dreamed of being. People can live out whatever fetish has quietly seethed inside them and you can’t really blame them for that. Some people are going to use SL as social engineering tool, learn to better their people skills and sharpen skills at project management. Some are going to take a great running leap into cooperative societies. Some are going to design the next great game, some are going to take the entrepreneurial plunge and start the business they could never start in RL. And some just want to wear pretty dresses and bling.

Not everyone can be a leader, an entrepreneur, or an artist. Does it really matter that some people are not who they make themselves out to be? I don’t know that I see that as a walling off of feelings, I think I see it as a freeing of them. I may not get the whole D/s or furry thing, but if that fulfills some need that Amy Avatar has, then godspeed and I hope she has a great time and it is everything she ever wanted it to be for her. People have indeed freed their souls and their emotions here, but it would appear that it’s kinda messy and chaotic when that happens.

I think the source of your sorrow is that it turns out people are indeed flawed. We cannot ever have utopia without war and anger and hatred. Our emotions at their most base level, are too messy and chaotic for happy ever after. SL has given people the ability to be what they truly want to be, and it turns out some really want to be jerks and create ugly. It turns out that some really want to be neurotic, vain, drama queens. Each of us chooses every day who to be in RL, and even more so here in SL. Personally, I feel that you can role play all you want here, but you still end up being shades of you. People choose roles that they get some kind of satisfaction out of; and that is the result of the great SL experiment. All it shows is that some of us are good, some of us are evil and most of us have moments of both to varying degrees.

Rather than being disheartened with the way some people have chosen to use the gift of SL, celebrate your own freedom to live your second life in any fashion that you choose. If only RL had this few restrictions….

As for me, my closest friends in SL know personal details about the RL me; maybe not all the details all at once, but more as I get to know them better. I don't think of it as 'lying' so much as protecting myself. Most people in SL just don't need to know details about who I really am. If asked, I won't lie about my age, or my job, or the city I live in, but I'm reluctant to give strangers personal details about my real self. I'll always be honest with those closest to me, though.

SL is a great way to do things and be things that you might have always dreamed of, but never could in RL. It's no surprise to me that most people are all too eager to shake off their RL selves and escape into another persona. Their RL selves might not be anything to get excited about. Some people embrace a chance to 'forget' who they are in RL.

I keep most things about my real self private because I enjoy being able to remake myself. Ilia takes chances and does things that I might be too shy to do. Ilia is younger and better looking than I am as well; it's a nice little fantasy for me to be able to be her for a while and become a better version of myself. Some things aren't too different; my personality in SL is mostly the same as in RL, only enhanced in some ways. Ilia's more outgoing, less shy than I really am, but for the most part, she's me.

I never lie, and I can prove it.

Wonderful thread, Lordfly!

Masks hide beauty, and masks hide ugliness.

Personally, in SL and in RL, while happy to discuss my professional credentials and/or educational background, I am not quick to reveal personal information. When asked, I am honest and forthright, but I am rarely asked.

I remain in SL for two reasons: the first, I find SL provides an environment that is conducive to the literary arts; the second, I am painfully shy in RL (even though I am a teacher), and SL provides a low-impact social setting to help me overcome some of my difficulties. I think (though I have no way of knowing) that my silence in-world is often misconstrued.

Be that as it may, the value of SL, in general, far outweighs any potential hazard, real or imagined.

first, let me state that i understand when you say "we", you mean that in general terms and not necessarily "we" as in each and every one of us. some of us are guilty of all you say, some are guilty of some, some of one or two.. and some who may be guilty of none at all.

for instance, as Cybin, i'm me.. but not wholly so. then again, i've never pretended it's an exact representation of who i am as a preson.. although i have mentioned (somewhere in these forums) that i, the RL me, am more of a mixture of Cybin and The Quirk. choosing to focus parts of myself onto two different incarnations.

my intentions to others and in concern of SL are never hidden. when i say i'm here to help others and to help SL become more than we can imagine, i mean it. but i'm also here for fun. would it be nice to earn a living though SL? sure, but it's not my goal.

as The Quirk i allow myself to express my more humorous and less grammatically proper side. he is the balance to the headiness of Cybin. as a RL example, i'm just as happy watching 'Adult Swim' as i am watching a program about quantum theories.

on the other hand, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss role-players as "lying". that's the magic of SL.. if we want to become someone we're not, we can. i do say that should be handled with care though.. so as not to mislead others into believing we're someone we're not in RL.

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but i think the heart of this post, at least to me, is your statement, "We have the potential of dropping all barriers to communication, to understanding each other and bringing about world peace, or something."

this is something i believe in as firmly as you, LF. SL is an opportunity to drop the trappings of RL societies and show the rest of the world what happens when we work together creatively and with understanding.

sometimes i surprise myself with the way i think of SL.. how i look at it. i describe it as an alternate world existing on a digital plane. i tell non-SLers about the amazing things we can do and are being done. i mention how we're just scratching the surface of what our future will be.

SL puts stars in my eyes. even here on the forums.. when telling friends about it, i warn them that it can become a rather heated place, but i also mention how intelligent we are. just today i was mentioning to a friend how cool it is that here on these forums we have a lengthy debate over Intelligent Design vs. Evolution and we're not yelling at each other or shoving our opinions down each others throats.. we're actually discussing it intelligently.

what other forums can you go to to debate the beginning of life then jump to a thread mentioning an avatar contest akin to "American Idol on Hallucinagenics" then come here to express one's feelings on our world and what it is vs. what it can be, but just as easily read about Teleporting Naked!?!

feel free to answer this for me, do i come across sometimes as a butt kisser to LL? i'm not trying to be a martyr, nor am i joking. i seriously wonder about this, i've recently been taking notice of how often and how strongly i speak well of SL.
we are an extremely unique phenomenon that, if i'm being honest, i feel honored to be a part of. if i come across strongly, it's because i believe strongly in SL. part of that belief is that we DO have it in us to be more than the sum of our parts. just as our world in SL is more than it's sum, with a rich history and a presence of sentimentality, so can we grow to be more than who we are seperately.

i'm proud of our community, and being the optomist i am, yes Lordfly.. we can be more and even in light of any negativity on the boards, i believe we're actually currently headed in that direction.

Sincerely,
Cybin Monde

I guess I'm just not a deceitful sort of person. I never try to inflate the grandeur of my first life in SL, and I'm quite honest and open about all its details. I have a real photo in my first life tab, even. I have nothing to hide.

I've never understood those who prefer to exaggerate their real lives, or even lie about them outright.

I don't lie. Or at least about big stuff. But if I don't tell them, it's not a lie, is it?

Not at all Burke. Of course, I'm not Lordfly, but my opinion on what he is talking about is not about how much a person truely "reveals" about themselves, but more along the lines of the "truth in what a person *does* reveal".

For example...

Many people know that I have a child. A daughter who is autistic. I've talked about her in various discussions. But I have only ever revealed her *name* to about 3 or 4 people. I have my reasons for that, though it is for another disussion really. The point is, I have stated some things about her, but not everything to all people.

However, what I think an example of what Lordfly is talking about would be like if I was going around telling everyone I have a masters in computer science and I make 90k a year salary. When in actuality, I am a high school grad only, who self taught myself enough to get into the computer field and I make a hell of a lot less than 90k. hehe..

One example is me not revealling all of the truth. The other example would be me telling a flat out lie.

That is the discussion I think Lordfly is getting at. Again, that is my opinion only based on his post.

I don't hide who I am. Most know who I am. I don't pretend. I don't need to. People who know me understand.

Second Life is something to be embraced to where you can extend your different realities (or extensions of first life).

We all have different tastes, some of us may find them not so pleasant. But hey guess what? We're all human. Our minds are creative. What you're into is what you're into. I have many many many different things I could get into, that I have ideas for, or engage in.

Second Life, opens the boundaries a bit to allow each of us express ourselves in our own way. Whether it be D/s, furry, clubbing, etc, that would really be impossible in real life.

Being in an internet community, what I have noticed in each one, what I had found is quite interesting: There's no borders. If we wanna know where the other person is from we just simply ask, and really there tends to be no big deal over it. Whether the person is in Japan, or in England. I view all of us as equals.

Second Life for me, is an extension of what I want my real life to be. It may end up being some fantasy, but the community is present in real life as well.

Case in point: Each of us like different things. We just learn how to tolerate them here (with a few exceptions).

I have snipped bits off here and there....


This is something which I have found fascinating over the past 16 months. The impression that one gets from talking to people in world is that other people are open to you...that the method of communication is somehow giving you insight or access into other people's minds. Sometimes it is, sometimtes it isn't, and telling the difference is a good trick if you can work it.

SL is just a medium like any other, like the telephone or email or letter writing. But we all know how subtly different each of those is from each other. In some ways it appears that we can be the person we really want to be in SL, freed from the fetters of our RL appearance, and free from the things which may prevent communication in RL...in SL it needn't matter if we are young, old, fat, thin, dark, light, disabled, deaf, smelly or spotty.

It also seems as though we can enter into pure communication with the people that we talk to in the virtual world...no dirty washing, washing up, or uncapped toothpaste tubes to get in the way.

The problem is, that maybe the way that people handle those things - the top left off the toothpaste tube for the fifth year - tells us more than several years of communication in SL will ever do. Maybe the things which in the real world appear to prevent proper communication taking place...maybe those tell us more than words can ever do about how someone is, and how they interact with us.

Even if you are trying to be the same person in the virtual world as you are in the real world, you just don't have control over the differences. In real life, fortunately, few of us have to cope with griefers who shoot you across the sims, and very few of us have the control over the environment that SL offers us.



We do? I have experienced more openness and acceptance in SL than in the RL, which leads me to wonder if people are as intolerant as they may appear to be.



We do? Again, I have found people in SL to be widely tolerant of differences of beliefs and convictions. In the beginning, I found these forums a bit intimidating...but that has worn off as time has passed.




I am not sure I agree with you here. Being able to hide behind an avatar can be liberating, and it may enable people to be the people that they feel that they really are. I am a lot more tolerant in RL than in SL, and I am beginning to wonder whether I am really as tolerant as I appear in RL. Maybe I feel able to be myself in SL in a way that I do not in RL?

I don't agree that adoption of any sort of camoflaging skin in SL is necessarily a barrier to communication. Perhaps it is an aid to communication, ironing out the differences of colour and appearance that prejudice us in real life.




I think that being able to be who you want to be is the best thing about SL...and not necessarily dishonest. Being able to slough off the roles which the RW forces us into - or even the roles which we have chosen for ourselves - in order to choose the person we present to the virtual world, is not dishonest.

I am a mother, and that's an important role for me in real life. I love my children passionately, and I care deeply for their welfare. But although I do talk to fellow players about my children, I don't have to play the role "mother" in SL, I can free myself to be myself, the me that is there all the time, but which in RL gets buried under the mother. In RL I have to be concerned about the messages that my behaviour sends to my children. In RL I have to watch my language in order to present a coherent message to my children that swearing is counter-productive to effective communication. In RL I have to consider their needs before my own.

SL has been so liberating for me because I can, without guilt, and without consequences, stop being a mother in SL and find myself and my own inclinations. It doesn't mean that I am being dishonest, or misleading people. It means that I have a breathing space in the virtual world where I am not a mother if I don't want to be.

There must be lots of other instances where RL gives us roles which we welcome in RL, but also welcome the opportunity to lay them down for a while. The people who are wheelchair-bound in RL who choose to be able to walk in SL. The people who are 75 and adopt a youthful avatar.

In RL, I have had terrible problems over the past year, most especially the illness of my son, and SL has given me the chance to be able to socialise and get away from my problems, without leaving the house or reneging upon my responsibilities. I have found friendship, generosity, kindness and concern here from people who look like themselve, look like furry creatures and look like nothing on earth. Here I am learning to appreciate people for themselves, and not for their appearance.

I would say that my faith in the essential goodness of people has been restored by SL. When I appealed for help with saving Numbakulla, people came through with money, assistance, and concern, and I think that speaks to me far more than any superficial honesty about age, gender or appearance.
Cali

Back in the day, my ethics class explored the idea that not everyone is owed the truth. Corrie Ten Boom and others were cited as examples of those rightly withholding the "truth."

In SL, no one is "owed" the truth about my real name, my real job, my real income, etc. Granted, I have revealed some of that information to a few of my closest friends, but it is not in the lest bit wise to indiscriminantly share this type of information with an anonymous internet audience.

On the other hand, purporting to be someone or something I am not could be another matter, but an area with many shades of gray. For instance, I don't really think we should expect trans-gendered folk to reveal their RL genders.

To the degree that we can be authentically inauthentic within the world of SL, I say go for it. Just don't place a burden of expectation on people beyond which is reasonable for this venue.

Hey good post LF. I do agree with you and have seen what you talking about allot in sl. I get so sick of hearing it's just a game...not really.... I am real and so are my feelings, and what I say is real when I talk to others here.
I try to pick my friends out by being selective. I have meet some really nice people in sl and I have met many that don’t think like me and I love that I love to met different people and hope to meet more good friends here

Change the real life first, the virtual will follow.

Hi Goyan!
What you say is so true...

Honesty...hmmmm

I tell what I want told, the rest is no ones business; but my own.

SL to me is not RL it allows me freedoms I do not have in my RL for one reason or another.

I think in SL (the virtual world) most ppl try to be better than they are in RL.

And thats the truth.

LF I hope your words are your deeds more power to ya.

Cat

I am me in SL, I am more me in SL than I am in RL, as its more accepted to be who you want to be.. if that makes sense.

I do NOT like false ppl, or ppl that lie, I really really REALLY don't see the need to do it, sure if you want to role play go ahead! Just don't make a fool out of somebody and make them a part of your game, if they are not sure what they are getting themselves into.

Yes, I am this dorky in RL, yes my sarcasm and wit is me.. Heather.. yus that's my RL name, I would rather it be Willow, but then, I would rather have the body of my AV sometimes, (ok most of the time) and I surely would like to have her wardrobe and bank balance in £'s!!!

Most of my friends and who i class family on here, I know about their RL, I know who they are, where they are from, what they like to eat, what they want to call their children, hell me and Willow C party it up regularly, and I have also met a few more.

To me SL is an extension of RL, my feelings I have as Willow are feelings from the heart of Heather.

So if you fuck with that heart! you fuck with mine... and if Willow wants to hit you, its a sure bet Heather does too.

Anyway i am ill.. i am rambling.. i am now leaving the thread!

I hear ya ....and hope your well soon.

Lordfly,

An interesting subject for discussion, although I think you take a pessimistic viewpoint. No, 'we' don't do any of those things you list. A minority of people do, but they tend to be people who are not worth knowing anyway.

I have met in real many people I have initially known online, and without exception they have been exactly as they have portrayed themselves. Equally, I have discovered that people I thought I knew online were in fact playing games - and with those I haven't sought to continue the relationship.

People play games as much in real life as they do in sl, incidentally. I am surprised you expect anything different.

I'm far to lazy to lie and/or create a persona different from my own RL self. I've never been a gamer. SL still is the only "game" I have ever played. I treat SL like a virtual extension of my real world self. Granted I wish I had my avatar's figure, but whatever. Fabrications of the virtual self tend to lead to many bizarre instances of drama... i.e. finding out that that hot chick you are dating is an 18 year old guy living in his parents basement etc.

I'm Paul Bunyan in RL, so it's not really a lie, it's a tall tale.

Most everyone has already said what I was thinking, and prolly more eloquently then I would have been able - specially Calli's post. But I'll add in a few things I been thinking about since reading this on the original blog posting.

Second Life by its nature and name too I might add, allows many people an opportunity to be someone else, do different things than they might do in RL, and explore things of interest they might not be able to do in RL for various reasons.

SL also by its nature allows many people the opportunity to be and do things pretty much as they are in their real lives. I've contended in my own blog that people are here to either play SL or live SL and anything in between or a mix of either.

I for one hesitate to give out every little detail of my RL simply because it isn't a safe thing to do, nor in my opinion smart VR practice. I've had my identity ripped off in RL and had my whole computer hacked in VR. Not fun.

That being said, as far as honesty goes, I'm pretty much "me". when it comes to VR. My personality, the things I say (type) and how I say them. Call me up on the phone, pop over for some tea and you'll get the "yalls" and "darlins" and all that. Not to mention I'll be as opinionated and wacky etc as I am in SL.

I don't bother with RL photos on my profile and whatnot, simply because really...think about it...I mean even if I DID put one up there - you'd never REALLY know if that photo was me or not. Plus I'm a private person RL, I don't have my phone number and home address listed in public directories and so forth. A RL photo in VR is akin to the same sort of thing in my view lol. I also like to keep my VR life separate from my RL for the most part. I have a comfort level of "disclosure" and I rarely go over that line. If that makes me a lier or dishonest then I guess I am.

I rarely ever look at a person's 1st life section on their profile anyhow. If I want to meet and know about people that way I'll log off and hang out with folks in RL. I love VR because its exactly that: Virtual Reality. For someone who remembers life before we could experience virtual anything, its still a kick in the pants and I don't worry about who or what someone is in their real lives when I meet them online.

Someone on this thread mentioned that we have a level of control over our second lives that we might not have in RL, and I'm in agreement with that point of view. The symptom of that would be the cordoning off type behaviours to whatever degree you see around you in SL. I might live in a crowded situation RL, and want to have a wide open space with no neighbors to bother me in SL. Or vice versa.

There are no doors on my SL home and certainly no red lines around the land. Anyone is welcome to hang out, explore, build in the sandbox, throw a party or whatever at my place.

I DO happen to agree that RL does "leak" over into VR. I was talking to a friend just the other day about this. He had asked me if I'd ever experienced racism in SL. I have, as well as sexism and anti-gay stuff as well. Mostly I just ignore it, or make a comment to let it be known I'm not going along with that type of mindset.

So in a place like SL you can get the good the bad and the ugly. It happens in RL and it happens in other VR communities. I find it interesting at most, and try not to let it bend me out of shape. I pick my battles, and when something disgruntles me enuff I rant about it on my blog and move on.

If one is looking for world peace, you won't find it online if we can't do it in RL. If I'm going to expend any energy on that front I'll start in the real world anyhow. If that makes me part of the problem in VR then so be it. I certainly don't go the other way around and actively work for strife and disharmony online. I like to have a non-stressful environment where I happen to spend my recreation time. I'm not gonna mess that up.

One last thing to note - I understand they are many who dabble, play and experiment with things like BDSM online that do not or are not able to do so in RL. That's fine and good. But understand that there is a thriving and very much real BDSM community thats been alive and kicking well before the internet came into being.

Some are who they are in VR because that's who they are in RL. There's always two sides to every coin. While I might be part of one side of the coin, I won't be knocking those on the flip side. That's life - second or first

Very interesting topic.

On the one hand, I'm a white dog with a red collar - so, yes - I'm quite different in appearance than I am in RL. I crack jokes about my fur, peeing on the carpet - but aside from that I'm really the same personality in RL as I am in SL.

People call me Travis here - in RL, I'm Steve. Oddly, when I exchange RL email with friends in SL, I sign my name as Travis - even though the header on my email has my RL name. I'm not doing so to be deceitful - I just think of 'Travis' more as a nickname.

I too, see SL as an extention of RL. Its a communication and collaboration mechanism that's beyond anything I've experienced before. I do find that its a lot easier for me to be social here - I'm not at ease in crowds in RL - in SL, I'm in the thick of it - and wouldn't have it any other way.