This just in...you now have no property rights

The WERE herded???

(I'm not being critical of your post Xtopherxaos, I agree with it, I'm just point out [with extreme sarcasm] that the herding hasn't stopped).

Bush signs Western Shoshone legislation
Tribal leaders views bill as massive land fraudBy Jerry Reynolds

Updated: 5:06 p.m. ET July 9, 2004WASHINGTON - One of the largest ongoing seizures of Indian land in modern times will move forward following President George W. Bush’s signing of the Western Shoshone Distribution Bill on July 7.

Under provisions of the bill, Western Shoshone claims to 24 million acres of land in Nevada, Utah, California and Idaho, based on the Ruby Valley Treaty of 1863, are officially subsumed through payment by the U.S. government.

The bill will forcibly distribute approximately $145 million in funds awarded the tribe by the Indian Land Claims Commission. Most of it will go to 6,000 or so eligible tribal members, with a separate revenue stream set aside for educational purposes.

The commission acted on findings that following the Ruby Valley Treaty, which permitted non-Indian miners access to the tribal lands, a "gradual encroachment" took place that supposedly nullified the treaty.

"Gradual encroachment"

According to the government the "gradual encroachment" theory obviated any need for official cession of land by sovereign Western Shoshone governments, a sticking point to this day with foes of the funds distribution.

The commission based its original $27 million award (enacted by its successor organization, U.S. Court of Federal Claims) on land valuation in effect in 1872 - 15 cents an acre, with no interest on the loss over time.

Because acceptance of the award would create the perception that any claims to their land have been relinquished, the majority of Western Shoshone governments have steadfastly refused the money. Despite the July 7 signing, several Western Shoshone tribes and tribal members said they will continue to rely on the Ruby Valley Treaty to press their land claims.

This has never been easy for them. Another sticking point in the process of seizure has been a court ruling that the tribe could not litigate the award once its trustee, the Interior Department, accepted receipt of it.

Although tribal sovereignty is not vested in individuals but in tribes, Congress has relied on individual votes, cast in rather stage-managed proceedings, to determine that a "majority" of Western Shoshone tribal members favor distribution of funds and the resulting extinction of their land claims. Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., and his Republican ally in the House of Representatives, fellow Nevadan James Gibbons, persuaded their colleagues to pass the embattled bill mainly on the strength of vote tallies in proceedings that had no official sanctioning process across all the Western Shoshone tribes, but concentrated on Nevada tribes.

The Ruby Valley Treaty lands are rich in resources, including gold, water and geothermal energy. Multinational mining companies are standing by to operate within the Ruby Valley lands through "privatization" bills brought forward by Gibbons. Gibbons and Reid are among Congress’ leading recipients of mining company contributions.

Nuclear waste repository

In addition, President Bush has designated Yucca Mountain, a site within the Ruby Valley lands, as the nation’s nuclear waste repository.

In a statement of dissenting views attached to the distribution bill, signed by six members of the House, the claim continues to be made that no proof has been provided of Bush administration claims that a "vast majority" of Western Shoshone favor distribution of funds.

In any case, sovereignty is vested in tribal government, not individuals. According to the bill’s more vocal Western Shoshone opponents, the one former Western Shoshone tribal governmental leader who had testified in behalf of distribution did so over the opposition of a majority of his council, which passed a resolution refuting his testimony. A "Western Shoshone Claims Steering Committee," heavily relied on by Reid and Gibbons in producing a show of tribal support for distribution, has all the appearance of a shadow government, having been declared null and void by a resolution of the recognized government - all this again now part of recent historical record.

Western Shoshone governing bodies have passed at least eight resolutions against distribution: the Te-Moak Tribe of Western Shoshone in 2004, Battle Mountain Indian Colony in 2002, South Fork Band Indian Reservation in 2003, Wells Band Council Te-Moak Tribe of Western Shoshone in 2002, Yomba Shoshone Tribe in 2003, Winnemucca Indian Colony in 2003, and Elko Band Council, which passed two in 2004.

The distribution will take place in defiance of at least these eight resolutions among the Western Shoshone. The National Congress of American Indians, the Organization of American States, and the United Nations have also weighed in against the distribution.

Western Shoshone resistance will clearly continue. "It’s not over," said Mary Gibson, a tribal member. "We still exist and we still have our rights to our land. It makes me sad and angry that myths continue to cloud the truth in this country. This struggle isn’t a Shoshone versus Shoshone battle, the underlying issue here is the U.S. responsibility and accountability for a treaty with the Western Shoshone Nation. As long as the people in the U.S. allow this to happen it will continue to happen."

The fight is not over
Raymond Yowell, of the Western Shoshone National Council, described himself as "utterly disappointed." It’s unbelievable that the U.S. body that makes the laws has acted in this manner. The fight is not over. A fraud is a fraud - individuals cannot sell out a nation and the bill, although a threat politically, does nothing to change our inherent rights or our treaty rights. Congress and the President were informed of all the facts that touch upon this issue. We will use the Treaty of Ruby Valley to stop Yucca Mountain and to protect our lands. Our title is still intact.

"The self-described, private group who pushed for this money are not members of any federally recognized council and have no authority to speak on behalf of our tribe or the Western Shoshone Nation. The Nevada legislators and the Bush administration have been well-advised of this fact. The way this legislation was handled makes an absolute sham of the stated government-to-government relationship and responsibility of the U.S. government."

Hugh Stevens, chairman of the Te-Moak Tribe of the Western Shoshone Nation, added, "Senator Reid has made numerous public commitments regarding resolving land issues for our communities. We will be looking for him to stand by that commitment in an expeditious fashion."

However, a press officer in Reid’s office, Tessa Hafen, said the senator struck no "deal" in the distribution bill that would permit tribes to retain or regain parcels of land for themselves within the Ruby Valley Treaty regions. Proposals to that effect have come from Rep. Nick Rahall, D-W.Va., in the House. Hafen said the senator has always hoped to work realistically with Western Shoshone tribes on their land claims. "It’s always been part of his long-term strategy," she added, then noted that "strategy" is perhaps too strong a word for it.

He has always hoped to work with Western Shoshone tribes on land issues, she concluded. "The problem is no one has ever come to him."

If you for a minute put asside the Native American land seizure aspect and read the Land for money part -

thats 24 Million Acres for 145 million dollars. About $6 an acre.

How is that for emminent domain and "fair market value" ?

I wonder what typical average undeveloped Land rates are for nearby non Indian land. Would be interesting how much in monetary value the government stole in this deal.

If it werent Native americans it would be a unparralled seizure of private property by the government. With no Realistic compensation.

Now lets remember this was Navtive American Land again. Its evil. There isnt any other word for it. I had never even seen this story, how insanely impossible that they could do this and it not be a major news story with public outcry.

Ranch land in that area sells for between 300 and 500 an acre, from what I can tell. It depends a lot on the water and mineral rights. But even $100 per acre is a far cry from $6 an acre.

That's not to say that there is any amount of money that can compensate for digging up and relocating one's dead ancestors or moving people away from the things that they hold sacred.

Here is an interesting site - this is where your land ends up after the government takes it I guess: http://www.governmentlandauction.com/

I live in Connecticut, and the most disapointing thing about this is the fact that the cities can control what fair market value is. They can determine that fair market value is way below what an appraisal may claim and as a property owner, we now have no way to fight such a thing.

A good freind of mine live next door to Sacred Heart University. The school wanted more dorms, the town of Fairfield stepped in and forced him to sell it at $25,000 less than what the house was appraised for.

Connecticut SUCKS. High taxes, and political scandles up the wa-zoo. In the last 24 months I would say that at least 5 mayors and 1 governor has been removed from office for financial scandals.

Even at $100 an acre they were shorted over 2 billion dollars if this were a "fair value" public interest Case.

considering what 2++ billion would buy for the members of the nation that owned the lands they might have been willing to sell , at least in part, if certain things were provided for.

Like you said it doesnt make up for losing sacred lands, and the like. But of course the Government took the land anyway.

I can't speak for the Shoshone, but for some tribes the land is the body of the Earth Mother. Accordling to this belief, we literally exist upon the skin of a living goddess.

How much money would you accept to allow the government to inject radioactive waste into your Mom?

How much money are we talking about?


(kidding!!!)

*Smacks Chip upside the head*

*playfully!!!*

The first time I've sided with the far right in a long time. Property belongs to private individuals, and private individuals with bigger metaphorical dicks should not be taking that land from their fellow private individuals.

I would pay the government. Is this a new population control plan?

This falls quite nicely with the pattern of government of late. I'm expecting the pendulum to swing the other way when suddenly, people realize what's going on and take steps to fix it.

Meh. Wake me up when Congress goes to war with Canada and moves to rename the continent "Oceania."

you misunderstand why I mentioned the price

The government TOOK the land anyhow

for $145 million

Supposedly they even got a majority vote by the Shoshone

And i did mention they might have provided certains things were taken care of.

Native American poverty in many places , especially out west is pretty drastic. that is a lot of money.

Also we are presuming they took the burial and sacred sites I dont know about Yucca mountan specifically , I think it was an old Bassalt or Salt mine tho.

Its entirely possible they would not have sold at any price but since they were being forced
a price that would have actually made a big difference to their nation would have been preferable.

wouldnt it?

Support California succession!

This sickens me. My parents first home was taken, at "fair market value". A beautiful, 90 year old Victorian, to make way for an interstate loop. Ok, 5th amendment ED. Fine, it's a freeway now. My parents understood that this was for the good of the public, took their lumps, and left. Can't really argue as we use the freeway where our house once stood, and without it, there would be worse gridlock than we have now.

However, This deal in CT is a farce. Do you know who is moving in? Pfizer Pharmaceutical, with a research complex, replete with a conference center, hotel complex, offices, condos, etc. adjacent to the facility. Pffft.

This is just WRONG. They are stretching the meaning of "public use" to include increased tax revenue for the city. This is CLEARLY a private organization benefitting from the bulldozing of private citizens homes and land.

One homeowner stated on the news tonight that he has a 10 room home, on a half acre, 200 feet from the sound, and they offered him 60k! Granted, the offer is now up to 150k, but that is still a joke. My brother recently payed that amount for a 2 bedroom home, no where near open water. This man's oceanside home is easily worth 300k.

By the way, there was a poll on FOX News, of all channels, and NINETY-NINE percent said this is bullshit. So much for the gov't working towards the wishes of the public. Multi-billion dollar company's tax dollars are now considered grounds for invoking eminent domain.

Tick..

tick..

tick..

..go your rights.

Disgusting.

That makes perfect sense if you think of land as something with a monetary value that can be bought and sold. If you're operating outside that framework, then it doesn't much matter if the land is taken outright or if you're compensated ten times its value.

Or, as Jethro Tull put it:

"They say they gave me compensation
Well that's not what I'm after
I was a rich man before yesterday
Now all I've got left is a million dollars and a pickup truck
Since I left my farm under the freeway"

A big compensation package might do some good, I'll grant you, but it doesn't mitigate the wrong. Accepting any compensation lends an air of legitimacy to what amounts to a theft.

O.O FINALLY! A subject Chip and I agree on! *just had to post it, Chip* hahaha

No you are right it doesnt.

But they were forced (supposedly even voted for) compensation of 145 million

When the land was worth Many times that barring the ethical considerations you mention.

Basically someone breaks in to your house says your moving out - and hands you $1000 as their thugs throw your stuff out the window.

Least if they offered $100,000 you might be able to buy a new house. Or go to college , etc.

The Shoshone have no choice but accept the 145$ million from the way it reads

This is kinda of an ultimate extreme modern case of Emminent Domain.

They are kicking them out reguarless. The Shoshone have to take whats given, they cant go to war.

An interesting quote from one of the Shoshone people that I think is applicable to the situation at large:



The government is no longer just displacing natives they have the right to displace anyone they darn well please now. The interesting thing, is that perhaps the Supreme Court was right in sending the responsibility back to the states.



At a state level, average citizens *may* have a little more control in that it might be easier to push for state legislation restricting what cities can do. The best thing that people who are outraged by this can do is to write their state assembly, state senate and state govenor to object to this practice. Make sure that the state politicians that you elect respect your property rights.

The other thing that the average Joe can do is to find out which companies are in collusion with local politicians and using ED as a means to obtain land to build their super whatever [a common practice by Wallmart]. Picket them. Don't buy from them.

For example: Here in Florida, the owner of Gran Havana Cafe and Cigar Factory reportedly has given up his fight against the Centre City Development Corp. over the taking of his property for a Renaissance Hotel.

Now I don't know of many tourists or people attending business conferences that are real comfortable walking past 150 angry people carrying signs protesting the opening of the Renaissance Hotel. It just may have some impact if companies that pay off cities to force ED are cast in the bad light that they deserve.

Just a thought anyway.

Not intentending to derail the thread, but what Arcadia is positing is, I think, right.

ED makes for a outright seziure of real property. There is another, more nefarious, way for big business, local, and state government to acquire property held by individuals--property tax assessment--Arcadia is very correct in pointing this out.

To add insult to injury, working-class people, who are currently residing in inner-city and close-in neighborhoods becuase they rely on the public infrastructure, are being gentrified right out of their homes. "White Flight" seems to be reversing. ED invocation and eviction by property tax assessment will become more and more common.

I forsee great difficulty for the disfranchised.

I think we're basically on the same side of this, we're just quibbling over details.

What both the Shoshone and the citizens of New London could use are large masses of people willing to sit in front of bulldozers and get tear-gassed for the cameras... and a news media willing to show people getting tear-gassed. Maybe if there's drama, the news would be interested, and maybe if the news is interested, things might change.

News coverage had an enormous impact on both the Civil Rights and Anti-War movements. Americans react strongly to police and the National Guard beating and gassing other Americans.

It may be hard to believe, but I really prefer to avoid conflict. But sometimes when the chips are down, you've got to put your body where your mouth is rather than pocketing the payoff and slinking quietly away.

Some of the New London residents have stated that they will stay in their homes, even when the demolition crews show up. I hope they do. If they have to have the cops come in to physically remove them, it will be all over the news, and get more people's attention.

Absolutely - I live in one of those areas now. The taxes on my house have tripled in the last five years. Developers are buying up the property in my neighborhood, tearing down the small Florida homes and building zero property, three story, McMansions that are selling for between 5 and 7 million dollars.

In the meantime, not just content to tax the older home owners out of their homes, the city is also sending code enforcement officers around to write up violations for basically any possible thing they can find.

The city of Fort Lauderdale has raised their code violation fines to $200.00 per day for every day that the violation exists. So if it takes a month to get something fixed, not only do you wind up with the cost of the repair, but you also wind up paying the city $6,000 in fines.

In this case, the city can even overide the homestead (which in the state of Florida, keeps other creditors from taking your home).

I am in fact in the process of fixing up a smaller house and moving out of the neighborhood because frankly, I can't afford the taxes when I retire and I hate what the McMansions have done to the overall look and feel of where I live. (No privacy, no trees and snotty neighbors).

.

I witnessed the same thing happening in Houston, Texas, or 'the blob that ate east-Texas.'

It is most distressing to know that it is happening in other portions of the United States.

Nolan, are you in CT also?

Now wait...and listen....notice how the silence from Washington is almost deafening....

They are hedging their bets, there are elections coming soon...Enough public outcry and they will be singing the hymn of individual property rights; no outcry and they will just let the ruling stand unmolested...soon to make its way under the rug.