Second Life Forums Archive - SL (and RL) RANT: Justifying Knowledge

April Firefly

Idiosyncratic Poster

Join date: 3 Aug 2004

Posts: 1,253

07-11-2005 12:14

From: Nolan Nash

I have a hobby/PT job, designing websites. Sometimes I do this for friends or aquaintances who own their own businesses. Actually, I did.

The reason I say did, is because I found it makes dealing with an unknown client look and feel like a cakewalk.

That is, friends, for some reason, expect MUCH more, at least in my experience.

Let me say that I am VERY PICKY about quality - whether I am building or texturing in SL, or building a web page in RL. I spend all kinds of extra time (free) building sites, because I can't stand any flaws, even if I think only I would notice.

What I have found is that friends are usually not happy with the end result, even though I have gone way above and beyond for them.

Example: A friend owns a fishing tackle mfg./importing/sales company. He wanted to step into the 21st century with a website. He provided me with logos, and I spent a couple of days photographing 100% of their inventory, so I could build a clickable picture catalogue of their items.

I made customs backgrounds with faded out antique lake maps, divider bars and buttons based on their logo, color scheme, sport fishing, etc. After having him go online to check my progress several times during a two week period, I was finished, and I invited him over to view the end result.

He didn't say much. He just typed in an URL for a competitor's site, which had a plain black backround, a terrible quality picture of a guy holding up a fish (which I had placed several of throughout his page, along with one-liner testimonials), and a yellow Arial font title. It was ONE page deep, had no catalogue, no testimomials, and looked like it had been done by an extreme novice. My friend Joel says, "I want my page to be just like his." WHAT? He waited two weeks to tell me he wanted an extremely basic, two color webpage with nothing other than a title, a picture, and a contact phone number? Bleh.

He is not the only friend who has done this. I had a guy who owns a small art gallery give me grey hairs, as well as another who sells railroad safety equipment. Why is it that I don't have these problems with anonymous clients? I have never even had more than a couple of very minor complaints, usually dealing with browser compatibilty or the like, which are fairly easy to deal with, and not a reflection on the overall quality of the end product.

I know this is tangental, because we are talking about SL here, and customers in general, not just friends, but I run into the same issues with friends in SL, that commission me to build for them.

I may just have to stop building for friends, not unlike the policy I adopted in RL, with web design.

I suppose it's because they feel more comfortable offering critiques, but never the less, it's extremely frustrating for me.

Oh Nolan, I'm going off on a tangent with this one. But while I was reading your post, I kept seeing Lucy asking Linus to play Jingle Bells. Linus is playing this beautiful full symphony and Lucy says no no, and then he brings it down to the basic one finger Jingle Bells and she says "That's it!" Some people can't appreciate good quality.

_____________________

From: Billybob Goodliffe

the truth is overrated

From: Argent Stonecutter

The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?

Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!

Kevin McLean

Registered User

Join date: 14 May 2004

Posts: 1

07-11-2005 12:36

Cienna, I IM'd you in world the other night about possibly having you do some work for me. I responded to your post (Second Look?) looking for work. You never IM'd me back. Now, I suppose it's possible that you just missed my IM. It's equally possible, I think, that you just got an IM from a "bigger name", and decided to pursue that lead instead of mine. Whatever. I have to tell you though, after reading your rant, all I have to say is, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Thank you for not responding to my IM. I don't think things would have worked out between us.

Lora Morgan

Puts the "eek" in "geek"

Join date: 19 Mar 2004

Posts: 779

07-11-2005 12:42

From: April Firefly

...I kept seeing Lucy asking Linus to play Jingle Bells. Linus is playing this beautiful full symphony and Lucy says no no, and then he brings it down to the basic one finger Jingle Bells and she says "That's it!" Some people can't appreciate good quality.

Haha! Good one. The best part of that special was seeing the frustration in Linus' face as he belted it out with one finger.

Caliandris Pendragon

Waiting in the light

Join date: 12 Feb 2004

Posts: 643

07-11-2005 12:42

From: Enabran Templar

Giving my clients garbage is not an option. Even when they ask for it. It's my name and my business card that's associated with the final product.

Don't recall suggesting that anyone should provide or accept garbage. And if you have worked commercially, you know that the choice isn't between your professionally produced product and garbage. The choice is between your idea of the logo or ad or brochure and the client's idea...if there is a huge gulf between the two then it is a question of spending time persuading them your vision is right, or coming up with an alternative. It also means that either they briefed you badly or you fulfilled the brief badly.

The best work allows the designer to use their professional expertise AND gives the customer want they want - or immediately impresses them as what they would have wanted if only they had thought of it. The worst imposes upon the client the designers' vision for the product and that overrides or even conflicts with the client's own ideas.

If you move outside the client's comfort zone, you have to find a way to take him with you, or you lose the client, no matter how wonderful the work.
Cali

Cienna Samiam

Bah.

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,316

07-11-2005 12:54

From: Kevin McLean

Cienna, I IM'd you in world the other night about possibly having you do some work for me. I responded to your post (Second Look?) looking for work. You never IM'd me back. Now, I suppose it's possible that you just missed my IM. It's equally possible, I think, that you just got an IM from a "bigger name", and decided to pursue that lead instead of mine. Whatever. I have to tell you though, after reading your rant, all I have to say is, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Thank you for not responding to my IM. I don't think things would have worked out between us.

Hi Kevin. Checked the thread you mention posting to, I don't see your post, nor have I received any IMs from you.

I suppose it's possible you did either, but considering the fact you insinuate I name-chase, and that you prefer an obvious misconstruction of my frustration with a non-paying and non-communicative client as something other than what it is, I suspect you may well be right to look elsewhere.

Thanks.

_____________________

Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.

Enabran Templar

Capitalist Pig

Join date: 26 Aug 2004

Posts: 4,506

07-11-2005 13:09

From: Cienna Samiam

Hi Kevin. Checked the thread you mention posting to, I don't see your post, nor have I received any IMs from you.

I suppose it's possible you did either, but considering the fact you insinuate I name-chase, and that you prefer an obvious misconstruction of my frustration with a non-paying and non-communicative client as something other than what it is, I suspect you may well be right to look elsewhere.

Thanks.

It's okay. I'd still hire you.

_____________________

From: Hiro Pendragon

Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.

Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?

Kim Anubis

The Magician

Join date: 3 Jun 2004

Posts: 921

07-11-2005 13:21

My job as a builder in SL (or as a freelance writer/editor IRL) is to meet my client's (or editor's) needs. If the prospective client likes blue, but I think blue is all wrong, I'll gently offer my professional opinion, with an explanation as to why I feel another specific color will be more effective. If the prospective client still wants blue, then blue it'll be, or else I turn down the job and try to refer the person to a colleague who's more able to meet the client's needs.

Over the years, I've had numerous clients who wanted the equivalent of "Jingle Bells" played with only one finger. The thing is, that's what they wanted, and there can be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe it is reminiscent of a time in their childhood when they heard the song played that way. Maybe they're looking for a childlike effect. I might not be able to guess, but if I ask questions, I can find out. The reasoning behind some clients' specifications has been quite opaque to me, until I asked questions. Usually I avoid running into trouble of the "no, I hate green, why isn't it blue!" type by asking a lot of questions before I take on a project. I use a checklist during the initial interview.

Sure, from time to time I do work for clients that doesn't suit my personal taste. It satisfies the client, though, which satisfies me and keeps the bills paid. Also, there have been plenty of times when the client's vision of the project, divergent from mine, led to a very successful product. I like surprises like that. In fact, my dedication to the pursuit of my client's vision instead of my own (but informed by my own expertise) is exactly why my clients choose to work with me.

BTW, amazing how many pro freelance writers there are in SL, eh?

_____________________

http://www.TheMagicians.us

Jauani Wu

pancake rabbit

Join date: 7 Apr 2003

Posts: 3,835

07-11-2005 13:27

this is probably a common "problem" in any industry. it's increasingly difficult in the design field though because it's tough to explain some moves as a lot of the wisdom is intuitive and requires some introspection.

in anycase, this is how things are. people won't accept your genius. you have to prove it to them

i think ananda and travis's replies are bang on. it's your clients commission, and your clients money. good design work has to balance the clients desires and preferences with the designers vision. we raise artists of the past on pedestals now but in their life they struggled as well to realize their visions. the hero we think we are or can be has seldom ever existed.

when i have this kind of situation i view it very differently now. i view the clients inability to see things my way as a failure in my own work and representation of it to convey it's (superior) value. after all, if i am the expert, it is my responsibility to be able to illustrate that. putting the client below oneself in the process is really damaging to the project and the experience.

anyway, i'm not talking about SL, only rl. i have yet to win a commission in sl.

_____________________

http://wu-had.blogspot.com/
read my blog

Mecha
Jauani Wu
hero of justice
__________________________________________________
"Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate

Cienna Samiam

Bah.

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,316

07-11-2005 14:18

Good insights, all. Thank you all for taking the time to share them. With a few more aspirin and a dollop of patience, I'm sure to work this out with the client in question. I suppose I was venting frustration more than anything. Damn this humanity gig. (grin)

@Enabran -- whenever you're ready!

_____________________

Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.

SL (and RL) RANT: Justifying Knowledge
April Firefly Idiosyncratic Poster Join date: 3 Aug 2004 Posts: 1,253	07-11-2005 12:14 From: Nolan Nash I have a hobby/PT job, designing websites. Sometimes I do this for friends or aquaintances who own their own businesses. Actually, I did. The reason I say did, is because I found it makes dealing with an unknown client look and feel like a cakewalk. That is, friends, for some reason, expect MUCH more, at least in my experience. Let me say that I am VERY PICKY about quality - whether I am building or texturing in SL, or building a web page in RL. I spend all kinds of extra time (free) building sites, because I can't stand any flaws, even if I think only I would notice. What I have found is that friends are usually not happy with the end result, even though I have gone way above and beyond for them. Example: A friend owns a fishing tackle mfg./importing/sales company. He wanted to step into the 21st century with a website. He provided me with logos, and I spent a couple of days photographing 100% of their inventory, so I could build a clickable picture catalogue of their items. I made customs backgrounds with faded out antique lake maps, divider bars and buttons based on their logo, color scheme, sport fishing, etc. After having him go online to check my progress several times during a two week period, I was finished, and I invited him over to view the end result. He didn't say much. He just typed in an URL for a competitor's site, which had a plain black backround, a terrible quality picture of a guy holding up a fish (which I had placed several of throughout his page, along with one-liner testimonials), and a yellow Arial font title. It was ONE page deep, had no catalogue, no testimomials, and looked like it had been done by an extreme novice. My friend Joel says, "I want my page to be just like his." WHAT? He waited two weeks to tell me he wanted an extremely basic, two color webpage with nothing other than a title, a picture, and a contact phone number? Bleh. He is not the only friend who has done this. I had a guy who owns a small art gallery give me grey hairs, as well as another who sells railroad safety equipment. Why is it that I don't have these problems with anonymous clients? I have never even had more than a couple of very minor complaints, usually dealing with browser compatibilty or the like, which are fairly easy to deal with, and not a reflection on the overall quality of the end product. I know this is tangental, because we are talking about SL here, and customers in general, not just friends, but I run into the same issues with friends in SL, that commission me to build for them. I may just have to stop building for friends, not unlike the policy I adopted in RL, with web design. I suppose it's because they feel more comfortable offering critiques, but never the less, it's extremely frustrating for me. Oh Nolan, I'm going off on a tangent with this one. But while I was reading your post, I kept seeing Lucy asking Linus to play Jingle Bells. Linus is playing this beautiful full symphony and Lucy says no no, and then he brings it down to the basic one finger Jingle Bells and she says "That's it!" Some people can't appreciate good quality. _____________________ From: Billybob Goodliffe the truth is overrated From: Argent Stonecutter The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better? Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
Kevin McLean Registered User Join date: 14 May 2004 Posts: 1	07-11-2005 12:36 Cienna, I IM'd you in world the other night about possibly having you do some work for me. I responded to your post (Second Look?) looking for work. You never IM'd me back. Now, I suppose it's possible that you just missed my IM. It's equally possible, I think, that you just got an IM from a "bigger name", and decided to pursue that lead instead of mine. Whatever. I have to tell you though, after reading your rant, all I have to say is, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Thank you for not responding to my IM. I don't think things would have worked out between us.
Lora Morgan Puts the "eek" in "geek" Join date: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 779	07-11-2005 12:42 From: April Firefly ...I kept seeing Lucy asking Linus to play Jingle Bells. Linus is playing this beautiful full symphony and Lucy says no no, and then he brings it down to the basic one finger Jingle Bells and she says "That's it!" Some people can't appreciate good quality. Haha! Good one. The best part of that special was seeing the frustration in Linus' face as he belted it out with one finger.
Caliandris Pendragon Waiting in the light Join date: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 643	07-11-2005 12:42 From: Enabran Templar Giving my clients garbage is not an option. Even when they ask for it. It's my name and my business card that's associated with the final product. Don't recall suggesting that anyone should provide or accept garbage. And if you have worked commercially, you know that the choice isn't between your professionally produced product and garbage. The choice is between your idea of the logo or ad or brochure and the client's idea...if there is a huge gulf between the two then it is a question of spending time persuading them your vision is right, or coming up with an alternative. It also means that either they briefed you badly or you fulfilled the brief badly. The best work allows the designer to use their professional expertise AND gives the customer want they want - or immediately impresses them as what they would have wanted if only they had thought of it. The worst imposes upon the client the designers' vision for the product and that overrides or even conflicts with the client's own ideas. If you move outside the client's comfort zone, you have to find a way to take him with you, or you lose the client, no matter how wonderful the work. Cali
Cienna Samiam Bah. Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,316	07-11-2005 12:54 From: Kevin McLean Cienna, I IM'd you in world the other night about possibly having you do some work for me. I responded to your post (Second Look?) looking for work. You never IM'd me back. Now, I suppose it's possible that you just missed my IM. It's equally possible, I think, that you just got an IM from a "bigger name", and decided to pursue that lead instead of mine. Whatever. I have to tell you though, after reading your rant, all I have to say is, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Thank you for not responding to my IM. I don't think things would have worked out between us. Hi Kevin. Checked the thread you mention posting to, I don't see your post, nor have I received any IMs from you. I suppose it's possible you did either, but considering the fact you insinuate I name-chase, and that you prefer an obvious misconstruction of my frustration with a non-paying and non-communicative client as something other than what it is, I suspect you may well be right to look elsewhere. Thanks. _____________________ Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
Enabran Templar Capitalist Pig Join date: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,506	07-11-2005 13:09 From: Cienna Samiam Hi Kevin. Checked the thread you mention posting to, I don't see your post, nor have I received any IMs from you. I suppose it's possible you did either, but considering the fact you insinuate I name-chase, and that you prefer an obvious misconstruction of my frustration with a non-paying and non-communicative client as something other than what it is, I suspect you may well be right to look elsewhere. Thanks. It's okay. I'd still hire you. _____________________ From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Kim Anubis The Magician Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 921	07-11-2005 13:21 My job as a builder in SL (or as a freelance writer/editor IRL) is to meet my client's (or editor's) needs. If the prospective client likes blue, but I think blue is all wrong, I'll gently offer my professional opinion, with an explanation as to why I feel another specific color will be more effective. If the prospective client still wants blue, then blue it'll be, or else I turn down the job and try to refer the person to a colleague who's more able to meet the client's needs. Over the years, I've had numerous clients who wanted the equivalent of "Jingle Bells" played with only one finger. The thing is, that's what they wanted, and there can be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe it is reminiscent of a time in their childhood when they heard the song played that way. Maybe they're looking for a childlike effect. I might not be able to guess, but if I ask questions, I can find out. The reasoning behind some clients' specifications has been quite opaque to me, until I asked questions. Usually I avoid running into trouble of the "no, I hate green, why isn't it blue!" type by asking a lot of questions before I take on a project. I use a checklist during the initial interview. Sure, from time to time I do work for clients that doesn't suit my personal taste. It satisfies the client, though, which satisfies me and keeps the bills paid. Also, there have been plenty of times when the client's vision of the project, divergent from mine, led to a very successful product. I like surprises like that. In fact, my dedication to the pursuit of my client's vision instead of my own (but informed by my own expertise) is exactly why my clients choose to work with me. BTW, amazing how many pro freelance writers there are in SL, eh? _____________________ http://www.TheMagicians.us
Jauani Wu pancake rabbit Join date: 7 Apr 2003 Posts: 3,835	07-11-2005 13:27 this is probably a common "problem" in any industry. it's increasingly difficult in the design field though because it's tough to explain some moves as a lot of the wisdom is intuitive and requires some introspection. in anycase, this is how things are. people won't accept your genius. you have to prove it to them i think ananda and travis's replies are bang on. it's your clients commission, and your clients money. good design work has to balance the clients desires and preferences with the designers vision. we raise artists of the past on pedestals now but in their life they struggled as well to realize their visions. the hero we think we are or can be has seldom ever existed. when i have this kind of situation i view it very differently now. i view the clients inability to see things my way as a failure in my own work and representation of it to convey it's (superior) value. after all, if i am the expert, it is my responsibility to be able to illustrate that. putting the client below oneself in the process is really damaging to the project and the experience. anyway, i'm not talking about SL, only rl. i have yet to win a commission in sl. _____________________ http://wu-had.blogspot.com/ read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate
Cienna Samiam Bah. Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,316	07-11-2005 14:18 Good insights, all. Thank you all for taking the time to share them. With a few more aspirin and a dollop of patience, I'm sure to work this out with the client in question. I suppose I was venting frustration more than anything. Damn this humanity gig. (grin) @Enabran -- whenever you're ready! _____________________ Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.

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SL (and RL) RANT: Justifying Knowledge