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So.. do you think people will obey evacuation orders in the future?

Aaron Levy
Medicated Lately?
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,147
08-31-2005 11:49
I can't believe people would stick around thinking a Category 5 was going to be like all the others. Didn't the people in New Orleans realize they literally lived in a giant bowl that was only kept dry by man-made walls and fragile pumps?

The loss of life we're seeing was so avoidable. So avoidable. This isn't like the tsunami where there was no warning -- they had several days of warning. I'm so saddend over this, and angry, that people didn't leave when they were told by every person from their local mayor up to the president to leave.

"No, I'm staying with my belongings."
"No, I'm riding this one out. I lived through XXXXXX, so I can live through this."

Ignorance. Sadness. Total destruction.

And before anyone thinks I'm being cruel, I'm going to be heading down there in a couple days to volunteer. I wish I could stay a long time, but I can only leave my business for two days, and I wish I could do more and was in a better financial situation to give more.
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
08-31-2005 12:41
Many of the people left behind in NOLA were unable to get out of the city, not unwilling. No one was offering free flights, free bus rides, free carpools... Not everyone had transportation of their own or the money to use public transit. Rental vehicles were gone within a couple hours of the evacuation notice, and roads were at a standstill soon after that.

I know it's easy to just assume they're all idiots, but that's a rather ignorant and elitist view. I know, because my brother and his wife live in NOLA, and were unable to evacuate. It wasn't a choice to stay behind with their belongings, and it wasn't because they thought a category 5 hurricane wasn't serious business. They threw everything valuable upstairs and went to the only higher ground they could get to, where they've been holed up since. The area they chose, and their own neighborhood, has no flooding yet, thankfully. Lots of debris, but no immediate threat of death. They had to stay behind, but they weren't stupid about it.

Now that a clear path has been found out of the city, they've teamed up with neighbors and others who weathered the storm in the same area, siphoned gas out of destroyed vehicles, and will be making their way out of the city in a group.

Unless you know the circumstance behind why people had to remain behind, keep your judgemental bullshit to yourself.
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Fushichou Mfume
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 182
08-31-2005 12:55
NOLA is a city with a *very* high percentage of dirt-poor people. If you had ever visited NOLA for any length of time, you would probably be appalled at the class inequity in that city. It's as bad or worse than in the worst parts of Mississippi. We're talking entire neighborhoods that white people and the police refused to go into. We're talking kids running around with no shoes to wear and not able to attend school.

Simple fact is that a large percentage of the citizens in that city were literally too poor and too disenfranchised to get out even if they wanted to.

Wake up and look at what America is really like. Your TV lies, your media lies, and your government lies.
Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
08-31-2005 12:58
From: Aaron Levy


---

And before anyone thinks I'm being cruel, I'm going to be heading down there in a couple days to volunteer. I wish I could stay a long time, but I can only leave my business for two days, and I wish I could do more and was in a better financial situation to give more.



Excellent!

Take care Aaron - the situation in LO seems to be getting much worse by the hour - and I admire you willingness to help!


:cool:
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Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
08-31-2005 12:59
I think there's a serious difference between the ignorant elitist idiots who assume people are idiots for not getting out upon warning of the hurricane(immediate and obvious danger) and the regular people who think they were tempting fate, at the least, for living there in the first place(forseen, obvious, and known danger).
Aaron Levy
Medicated Lately?
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,147
08-31-2005 13:40
I wasn't clear in my original post. I had just watched a CNN report where they had video of 4-5 people who lived in very well-to-do houses, complaining about their BMWs and stuff getting washed away. They were "surprised" the storm was as bad as it was. :confused:

I understand poor people can't evacuate all that quickly, but I did find a story online, CNN or ABC News I think, where they quoted a service that WAS offering free bus rides out of the city -- most large cities foot the bill for these kinds of things and I know New Orleans was getting state and federal help evacuating people, because I saw a CNN story the night before the storm showing a bunch of people being loaded onto a huge bus, and the reporter was saying the buses were being provided by the city on the order of the mayor.

Anyway, back to the story I saw earlier today that honked me off. These rich people were like, oh everything we had is gone, our BMWs, our jewelry, our STUFF. Absolutely no concern or sadness for the LIVES that are gone, no, just their damn BMW.

I'm also grieved that every time CNN or FOX or ABC or anyone shows video of the looting, 99% of those doing it are all of the same ethnic background. I don't know if that's because the news places are only picking videos that show the looting when only blacks are doing it, or if that's really how it is; I guess I won't know until I get down there. In any case, I wish they wouldn't even show the videos in those cases because all it does is give support to racial stereotypes.

Oh, this whole thing's got me worked up on all kinds of issues. Which is why I have to get down there to help, even if it's only moving some sand bags or something. I thought of borrowing a friends BBQ-kiosk (like the kind you see at fairs and stuff), and buying a bunch of food and going down and having a free BBQ stand near one of the field hospitals being setup.

If I can get any computer access while I'm down there, I'll try to post my comings and goings. It's going to be interesting...
Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
08-31-2005 14:11
I heard* the city of New Orleans had offered bus rides out, but that in other areas there was no similar service. The poor, the elderly, the ill - well I'm sure many people were trapped and my heart goes out to them.

*on the radio - I have no real knowledge of anything to do with the disaster
Nisa Stravinsky
Danger Mouse
Join date: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,238
08-31-2005 14:25
My best friend is an Arkansas State Trooper and we live about 67 miles from the LA border, he's being called in to assist in the looting control and body recovery. He said they will have to sleep in their patrol cars. It's just an awful mess. I wish I could take the time off to go and help you Aaron.. Good luck and do try and keep us informed though I bet you won't have much by way of connectivity save cell phone or radio.
_____________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. Will you leave me breathless?"

"I'm beginning to think the human psyche enjoys victimizing itself. " - Sezmra Svarog

"Film critics said I gave a voice to the fear we all have: that we'll reach a certain point in our lives, look around and realize that all the things we said we'd do and become will never come to be -- and that we're ordinary." - Anne Bancroft (2003)
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
08-31-2005 14:35
From: Aaron Levy
Anyway, back to the story I saw earlier today that honked me off. These rich people were like, oh everything we had is gone, our BMWs, our jewelry, our STUFF. Absolutely no concern or sadness for the LIVES that are gone, no, just their damn BMW.

I'm also grieved that every time CNN or FOX or ABC or anyone shows video of the looting, 99% of those doing it are all of the same ethnic background. I don't know if that's because the news places are only picking videos that show the looting when only blacks are doing it, or if that's really how it is; I guess I won't know until I get down there. In any case, I wish they wouldn't even show the videos in those cases because all it does is give support to racial stereotypes.


Interesting. Maybe the poorest people who feel that life owes them something happen to be predominantly black in that region? If they were really smart, they'd go loot the rich neighborhoods and not Canal Street, etc.

The rich people sound funny :D I love it when materialists lose their possessions. "Oh no, there goes my identity!" Haha.
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"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
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Fushichou Mfume
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 182
09-01-2005 10:53
Small factoid that most people don't know, because the media and the government (especially the local government in NOLA) don't want this to be common knowledge:

80% of the population of NOLA lives (or should I say "lived"?) below the poverty line. That's right, 80%.

20% of NOLA are middle- to upper-class white folks who actually have jobs and incomes above the poverty line--most of them *far* above the poverty line. There are some very rich families in NOLA.

Of the 80% below the poverty line, yes, most of them are black. NOLA has one of the largest black ghettos (comprising many districts, actually) in the U.S. Many of those people have not had a job in their lives, nor even a rudimentary education. The NOLA school system is a joke. We're talking MANY people who have never, ever known how to read.

Much of that 80% has been battered and ostracized their entire lives. No opportunity, no jobs, no prospects. My partner, when she lived there for several years, personally witnessed events such as a white cop in the French Quarter dragging a 6-year-old black boy by his ear through the streets, yelling at him to "go back to n*ggertown where you belong". You think a young boy being treated like that by a so-called authority figure isn't going to resent being beaten down and told his place for his entire life?

NOLA's economy has been in the toilet since the U.S. oil boom dried up. Cleaning up the French Quarter and turning it into a tourist attraction, and promoting the concept of vacationing in NOLA during Mardi Gras, is the ONLY reason that the 20% with money have been able to afford living there. Our wonderful, compassionate federal government has withheld, curtailed, or eliminated funding to do things like maintain the levies or fund disaster-response programs for a long time now. (Both dems and republicans, btw.) To the federal government and politicians in general, NOLA has been a lost cause. There's no money to be made in helping the poor.

So don't believe the reports and statements that the city and the state was offering bus rides out of there. Or more precisely, don't let them *imply* that the population of NOLA had a chance to get out. I'm surprised, frankly, that "80%" of them were able to get out. I actually bet it was a lower percentage than that. There are only so many busses running in the city, and they could not possibly evacuate an entire city where 80% of the population lives below the poverty line and much of that 80% has no access to a car, money, or even television.

Don't let yourself believe for a moment that many people obstinately refused to leave, disobeying authority. Most of the people left there COULD NOT LEAVE.

And don't let yourself believe for a moment that all the looting and violence happening now in the aftermath is the fault of the people doing the looting and violence. When you are spit on for your entire life by society and the government, when you are given NO prospects and you struggle every day just to put food in your belly, this is exactly the type of behavior you can expect from people who have been treated like dogs their entire life. Compassion and empathy are *learned* behaviors, and if you don't get an education and you are treated like dirt for your entire life, you never get a chance to learn these behaviors.

And don't let yourself believe for a moment that this is an isolated incident, an abberation. More events like this will be occurring directly as a result of the global warming that your benevolent federal government refuses to even acknowledge exists. As these disasters occur, more and more people will be displaced from their homes and the rest of the country will have to deal with the economic and social aftermaths.
Nisa Stravinsky
Danger Mouse
Join date: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,238
09-01-2005 11:09
From: someone
fac·toid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fktoid): A piece of unverified or inaccurate information that is presented in the press as factual, often as part of a publicity effort, and that is then accepted as true because of frequent repetition:



While my heart hurts for those left behind, and my heart hurts for the people much less fortunate than myself and while I have all the compassion in the world for those in America that have no chances due to circumstances in motion before their birth, and while I can understand the issues that lead up to humans acting less than humane during a time of crisis

Does not mean that I have to look the otherway when these same masses commit crimes. And during this national crisis, by crime I mean doing things other than just trying to survive. Shooting at rescue helicopters is not trying to survive, deliberately going into banks, breaking into ATMs, robbing jewellry stores and stores is not surviving. They may be desparate acts, but not towards survival

Robbing grocery stores of their supplies, even going into homes and only taking staples (this is not the same as going into a home and taking any valuables that managed to survive the storm) is wrong and we know it to be, but these are desperate acts of survival...

We can go all day and even the rest of our lives debating the human condition and never see eye to eye.

For me this is really a matter of intent. If the person is trying to feed himself and his family or group - I can forgive. I condemn those that take advantage of the situation for personal gain (and that goes for everyone that circle in like vultures).

I won't say anymore about this subject.
_____________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. Will you leave me breathless?"

"I'm beginning to think the human psyche enjoys victimizing itself. " - Sezmra Svarog

"Film critics said I gave a voice to the fear we all have: that we'll reach a certain point in our lives, look around and realize that all the things we said we'd do and become will never come to be -- and that we're ordinary." - Anne Bancroft (2003)
Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
09-01-2005 11:13
From: Jonquille Noir
Many of the people left behind in NOLA were unable to get out of the city, not unwilling. No one was offering free flights, free bus rides, free carpools... Not everyone had transportation of their own or the money to use public transit. Rental vehicles were gone within a couple hours of the evacuation notice, and roads were at a standstill soon after that.


That's an appalling fate, being left behind in the city now known as hell, looking at blocked roads, unable to leave, knowing destruction will come soon to end your life.

In this century I find it acceptable that anyone in a nation such as America can be handed such a fate. I think as a way of giving value to all the dead from this incident, countries around the world should work on evacuation plans for similar situations.
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
09-01-2005 11:18
From: Fushichou Mfume

Much of that 80% has been battered and ostracized their entire lives. No opportunity, no jobs, no prospects. My partner, when she lived there for several years, personally witnessed events such as a white cop in the French Quarter dragging a 6-year-old black boy by his ear through the streets, yelling at him to "go back to n*ggertown where you belong". You think a young boy being treated like that by a so-called authority figure isn't going to resent being beaten down and told his place for his entire life?

NOLA's economy has been in the toilet since the U.S. oil boom dried up. Cleaning up the French Quarter and turning it into a tourist attraction, and promoting the concept of vacationing in NOLA during Mardi Gras, is the ONLY reason that the 20% with money have been able to afford living there. Our wonderful, compassionate federal government has withheld, curtailed, or eliminated funding to do things like maintain the levies or fund disaster-response programs for a long time now. (Both dems and republicans, btw.) To the federal government and politicians in general, NOLA has been a lost cause. There's no money to be made in helping the poor.

So don't believe the reports and statements that the city and the state was offering bus rides out of there. Or more precisely, don't let them *imply* that the population of NOLA had a chance to get out. I'm surprised, frankly, that "80%" of them were able to get out. I actually bet it was a lower percentage than that. There are only so many busses running in the city, and they could not possibly evacuate an entire city where 80% of the population lives below the poverty line and much of that 80% has no access to a car, money, or even television.

Don't let yourself believe for a moment that many people obstinately refused to leave, disobeying authority. Most of the people left there COULD NOT LEAVE.

And don't let yourself believe for a moment that all the looting and violence happening now in the aftermath is the fault of the people doing the looting and violence. When you are spit on for your entire life by society and the government, when you are given NO prospects and you struggle every day just to put food in your belly, this is exactly the type of behavior you can expect from people who have been treated like dogs their entire life. Compassion and empathy are *learned* behaviors, and if you don't get an education and you are treated like dirt for your entire life, you never get a chance to learn these behaviors.

And don't let yourself believe for a moment that this is an isolated incident, an abberation. More events like this will be occurring directly as a result of the global warming that your benevolent federal government refuses to even acknowledge exists. As these disasters occur, more and more people will be displaced from their homes and the rest of the country will have to deal with the economic and social aftermaths.


Fuckall that ! They were born humans not jackals. YOU believe all this if you want. I'll continue to believe in humanity.
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
09-01-2005 12:27
From: Lecktor Hannibal
Fuckall that ! They were born humans not jackals. YOU believe all this if you want. I'll continue to believe in humanity.


Isn't "all this" part of humanity?
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"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
09-01-2005 12:29
From: Chance Abattoir
Isn't "all this" part of humanity?

They are humans as I stated. "all this" refers to the inane excuses we were given by the poster excusing or accepting this behavior as appropriate in a tragedy such as this. Looting food for survival yes. Shooting at rescuing volunteers, looting plasma screens ??? WTF. I'm tired of this country's proclivity to shout 'poor me' in the light of adversity.
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
09-01-2005 12:41
From: Lecktor Hannibal
They are humans as I stated. "all this" refers to the inane excuses we were given by the poster excusing or accepting this behavior as appropriate in a tragedy such as this. Looting food for survival yes. Shooting at rescuing volunteers, looting plasma screens ??? WTF. I'm tired of this country's proclivity to shout 'poor me' in the light of adversity.


I don't think they were shouting "poor me" as much as providing reasons why this kind of stuff happens. Writing off people without considering their situation doesn't provide solutions and creates perpetual problems.

If I'm wrong and they were shouting "poor me" for those people, I'd happily share your contempt. :)

My personal solution is that we pool the world's money to cure all sexual diseases and then solve all our problems with sex like the Bonobos.
_____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
-Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey
Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
09-01-2005 12:47
"And don't let yourself believe for a moment that all the looting and violence happening now in the aftermath is the fault of the people doing the looting and violence. When you are spit on for your entire life by society and the government, when you are given NO prospects and you struggle every day just to put food in your belly, this is exactly the type of behavior you can expect from people who have been treated like dogs their entire life. Compassion and empathy are *learned* behaviors, and if you don't get an education and you are treated like dirt for your entire life, you never get a chance to learn these behaviors."


Who's fault is it exactly ?
This is the excerpt I should have quoted and the source of my affront.
_____________________
YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !
Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,989
09-01-2005 15:37
From: Lecktor Hannibal

Who's fault is it exactly ?
This is the excerpt I should have quoted and the source of my affront.


DAMN YOU, GEORGE W. BUSH! :D
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BTW

WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Fushichou Mfume
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 182
09-01-2005 16:42
From: Lecktor Hannibal
"And don't let yourself believe for a moment that all the looting and violence happening now in the aftermath is the fault of the people doing the looting and violence. When you are spit on for your entire life by society and the government, when you are given NO prospects and you struggle every day just to put food in your belly, this is exactly the type of behavior you can expect from people who have been treated like dogs their entire life. Compassion and empathy are *learned* behaviors, and if you don't get an education and you are treated like dirt for your entire life, you never get a chance to learn these behaviors."


Who's fault is it exactly ?
This is the excerpt I should have quoted and the source of my affront.



Ultimately, Lecktor, it's the directly fault of our federal and state governments, and the policies they've been making ever since the inception of this country. More indirectly, it's the fault of the upper-class who own the controlling shares of our major corporations. Even more indirectly, its your fault and my fault for allowing our governments to become the shill for the rich that they are.

Sure there have been strides forward in legislation and programs that *improved* the lot of the commonweal. One of the most recent being FDR's "new deal" and some of the more recent acts that provided federal protection for handicapped persons, civil rights, etc.

But on another level, it's been an agenda of corporate lobbyists (who are in the paid employ of the upper-class, when you boil things down to their essentials) to continually push for lawmakers and legislation that erodes the social safety net for the commonweal.

Why? Because taking care of the commonweal of a country is not profitable for the rich.

And what happens in the end? Crap like is going down in NOLA right now. Money wasn't spent where it needed to be spent to help prevent or mitigate a disaster like this. On all kinds of levels, not just the Corps of Engineers reinforcing the levies or FEMA having plans for disaster response or the National Guard being overseas instead of here, where they are *supposed* to be. I'm also talking on levels that keep the poor squarely stuck in poverty and illiteracy. I'm talking about the gutting of social programs that reached their peak in the 60s and 70s and which have now been completely torn down. The dems and repubs are equally responsible - there is no difference between the parties. The entire two-party system is a shell game and a diversion for the masses to make them think they have a say in representative government. Clinton himself was one of the biggest contributors in the past 40 years to the demise of many of our social programs.

Your fault, and my fault. For apathy and ignorance.
Wuvme Karuna
..:: Spicy Latina ::..
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,669
09-01-2005 16:48
no money, no good health, no cars.. and ignorance. :eek:
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
09-01-2005 16:51
A few neutron bombs and we could solve this whole looting problem and leave the city intact. Damn you George Bush senior for stopping the production of neutron bombs, and damn you Ronald Reagan for trying to make them cause explosive damage.
_____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
-Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey
Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
09-01-2005 16:53
Very concise post, which I appreciate; but I still call bullshit. My original affront was at the almost condoning of the thugs actions your original post had. It read to me like don't hate them cause we made them animals. Did I read you wrong? These people are reprehensible. There is no excuse for them, poverty ridden or not. I've lived in poverty and risen above it. Not because I waited for uncle sugar to pull me out of the muck, I am abhorrent at the violence they are perpertrating, for what? A tv you can't operate?
A van that will be useless when you run out of gas? Shoot a rescuer for providing help and his skin is white?
What? I am abhorred.
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
09-01-2005 17:35
I think after the body-count is totalled up and the number of injuries are tallied, people will see the benefit of evacuating.

Unfortunately, humans seem to have short memory spans and I would bet that people would, over time, dismiss them.
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Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
09-01-2005 19:16
Yes and no.. jus tlike this time.
Last year, people evacuated and the hurricane they ran from turned away and hit Pensacola instead. Was Pensacola prepared for that? Nope... then again, they didn't get hit as badly and are STILL recovering from that storm. Did people leave P'cola permanently? Of course. Yet, others have moved back and even moved there for the first time despite the damage.

Having evacuated New Orleans last year only to watch the hurricane miss New Orleans cost some people hundreds of dollars some didn't have. That made at least some people think twice about leaving this time -- basic human experience and intellectual reasoning. Should people evacuate for a Cat 1 hurricane? No? Wait a sec.. look at the damage Katrina caused in Florida as a Cat 1. Shouldn't those people have left? Shouldn't an evacuation order have been issued?

The point is, everyone has to gather and evaluate information on an individual basis. Equally intelligent people armed with the same information may come to differing opinions... and then take different actions based on those decisions. That's basic human nature.

So, yeah. People will leave earlier next time. People will not leave for some of the same reasons they stayed this time - and even for reason having to do with the post-hurricane situation they see now (so that they can protect their property in the aftermath).

Kinda silly question at its core, isn't it?
Ewan Took
Mad Hairy Scotsman
Join date: 5 Dec 2004
Posts: 579
09-02-2005 06:57
From: Chance Abattoir
A few neutron bombs and we could solve this whole looting problem and leave the city intact. Damn you George Bush senior for stopping the production of neutron bombs, and damn you Ronald Reagan for trying to make them cause explosive damage.



But then who's gonna flip your burgers, shine your shoes and suck your c**K for a couple of dollars?
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