Copyright

I'm probably gonna get my head bitten off but here goes...

I've been playing for about 4 days now and I've seen a lot I like and a lot I don't like. I think the game has a lot of potential so please don't think I'm here just to gripe. One of the biggest problems I have so far is a matter of copyright. I read all the rules when I signed up and was glad to see that we would have custom content right up front. I also noted the rules state :

"Please do not upload any copyrighted images, like album covers or posters."

I have seen so much copyrighted material ingame that it's almost funny. Now I know this probably doesn't seem like a big deal to ya'll, but I take copyright very very seriously and I think you should too. I mean, if you think about it, the players are really making this game. They gave us the platform but the players create all the buildings, furnishings and fashions. I too would like to create things for the game but I'm worried. Because no one seems to respect copyright and as a graphic artist who has been stolen from in the past, I don't feel safe doing so.

I imagine that it's not being enforced much now as this is still beta, but once this thing goes public, will Linden enforce it's own rules? I've read over the boards and noticed a lot of people saying sounds/textures/shapes/scripts are being passed off as someone elses work. Doesn't that discourage you from creating new things and sharing them? I know it does me.

So I would like to know your opinions on this issue. Am I being to paranoid? Should Linden step in and control this now? Or is it a minor nussance that will be repaired once the game goes public?

Thank you for your time and interest. Good luck and blessings, Prana

i dont upload copyrighted images (everything i'm uploading isn't as far as i know, most stuff is made by myself), but i dont' think building something using fake video game money is going to get someone in trouble for copyright violation, legally speaking.

as for your own creations, anything you put on the internet, is as good as public domain IMO. whether it is in SL, on your website, or on a discussion board, like it or not, it's public domain, realistically rather than legally. if it's not making someone money, it's not 'really' a copyright infringment, and good luck fighting it. Of course, this is excluding the whole RIAA situation, but they are rich greedy millionares anyways, whith the ability to sue people. i'm a recording artist, and have copyrighted songs, and as long as someone isn't making money off of it, feel free to spread it around as much as you like. If anything, it's advertising (just make sure that your names imbedded in it or something).

As for Linden's role, i think it should be reactionary. If you see someone using your work, then there should be a way to report it. The Linden's won't be able to do any work if they have to check out every single texture around.

Unless of course, you are talking about scripts and such (which probably aren't actually copyrighted). in that case, just set the copy, modify, move options off...then no one can use it.

well prana, that's my 2 cents...

Well there's the issue that when SL goes public and becomes a paid service, money is being made. Users will be paying for access to the game, and along with that, access to any copyrighted materials present in the game world.

It's definitely infringement, and it's definitely gonna be a problem if certain legally inclined people decide to make it a problem.

well, it is the linden's world.

if there is something being infringed of yours, then you report it to them, and they would take it down, just like with any other DMCA compliant business(i REALLY hope that the game is DMCA compliant, as in registered as a service provider). it's as easy as that. let the linden's worry about their own legal issues as far as the rest of it

First thanks for your replies, I appreciate your views.

Second, I will have to disagree with you OneArmedNomad. I've done a lot of resaerch regarding copyright and even spoken with a couple copyright lawyers. Anything you make, graphics, text,music etc , is copyrighted the moment you create it and any use of it without your permission, even non profit is illegal. Even if you put it on the internet, it's not public domain. It's like placing a painting on your wall at home. It's there for people to look at but they can't just take it because it's out.

I used to think that people wouldn't sue over copyright if it was used non profit. But I have since learned of a number of cases, from unknown artists to the major corporations like Disney and Paramount, who have sued over even the smallest copyright infringement. See, most people think that if you use something without making any money on it you aren't hurting the artist. But think of this, if you are giving out for free, something that could have brought in a profit to the original artists, you've lost them money. This is grounds for a suit.

On top of that, it hurts our feelings and deminishes our self esteem. Using an artists work without permission and not giving credit is both morally and legally wrong. For some reason our society has gotten the impression that stealing something from cyberspace isn't really stealing, but it is. Stealing is stealing so we should think about that and what we are teaching other people, like our children.

I do agree that we need a way to notify mods of copyright violations (and other game violations) in game. Because I'll tell ya, if I can't trust people in game, I simply won't create. And I would say that after some of the other players start getting ripped off, they will feel the same way. What kind of game will it be if no one will create? And once the game goes live, I'd say more than a few artists will be more than a little unhappy to find thier work plastered all over the virtual world.

I am interested in hearing everyones thoughts on this so please continue to reply. Thank you again for your time. Good luck and blessings, Prana

yes, in theory it isn't, but in reality it IS public domain. I can view the image, save it, and modify it if want. There is NOTHING to stop that, short of not posting it at all.

My main point is, don't post anything on the internet if you are worried someone else will use it.

I don't consider SL a way to advertise my graphic design business or something like that, i do it just for fun. Anything i make for this game is just that, for this game.



personally, i like it when someone uses my images. makes me feel good that other people are using it, but that's not my bread and butter to make a living either, i do stuff for fun and for other people. If something needs to be protected that much, don't make it available. It's like leaving a diamond ring out on the curb outside your jewelry store in the middle of the night.

are you mainly talking about textures and scripts that you can make it so noone can copy them, or someone going to your website, saving the images and uploading to SL? Or is this just a more general post about copyright infringement on the internet as a whole

i see your point, but i think the best thing to do, is if you see someone violating your image, tell the linden's. as long as it's in their TOS, they won't be liable for any use that could come inside SL. I also have worked with copyright cases in my job, but mostly replica sales and cracked software sales. You do what you can to protect against it, but you do not have to monitor everything all the time...especially if you are registered with the DMCA
ok i'm rambling but i do want to stress again prana, you can upload stuff into SL and adjust it so it CANNOT be copied or modified.

ive got sun mad rasins, tido laundry detergant, and a few other products in my shop..
l o l

Copyright laws would only apply if Linden Lab uploaded copyright images/sounds, since they will be making money. Typical users may uplaod copyright materials since they are not going to use it commercially. Its being used in-world. I don't see any harm in that.

Currently (as far as I know) you can't download anything off of Second Life. If it's something that no one gaining, nor losing money on, it really shouldn't matter. In SL you get to see something, that doesn't mean you have it forever though. If anything, it instills longing.

Except, you know... THE LAW.

Let ye he who hath no MP3's, Shareware past the trial time, Copied video tapes, does not speed, and declares all there income cast forth the first stone.

Hmm...my work with media companies has given me the understanding that the problem is distribution.

Uploading the content onto the linden servers is not clearly a form of distribution, since the data can not be pulled by other users; SL is not a peer to peer network, and textures/sounds do not get distributed to your hard drive. This is what has the artists scared, not a bunch of people uplooading images and music for people to look at or hear. It's the equivalent of having an open house with music and art on the walls.

However, it does blur the line a bit, since you can give the items away in game...but I could just as easily give you a tape at my open house or give you a photo of the art on my wall. People don't get prosecuted for that unless they get caught selling it. And even if given away in game, the receiver can only distrib to other gamers unless they take unusual means (like trying to photograph or tape the sounds via an external source).

If other users could arbitrarily pull the data from the linden servers in sort of a "library" format, then yes, I'd say the case is cut 'n dry. But I'm sure if the legal implications were severe to the point that prosecution was certain, the functionality simply wouldn't exist in game.

I would suggest some of you review copyright law.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Thank you for the link, Labrat.

It shames me to admit this, but I have several things I have uploaded that I thought probably wouldn't hurt because I wasn't distributing them. Most notably would be the three works of art by the artist BROM. I was not selling them, only thinking they would add something to the Sunset Cafe. I was right in that count -- but being an artist myself, I have to recognize the fact that ASKING first probably would have been the best measure.

I've been wishy-washy about this in the past, but.. I know how I have felt when my artwork was put up on another's site without documentation of the fact that I was the creator and completely without my permission. Because of this post, I'm firm in my decision to remove all things that are copyrighted, and even anything questionable.

Prana is right -- we should make our own content, or barring that, ask others to help. If anything, it would just be cool to know that the world is 100% original; keeping the Linden Labs out of any potential legal risks would be a bonus.

Hmm, something else to consider though.. what about custom avatars, where people create characters from other games and television/movies/stories? Should that be considered a copyright infringement, since the creators have not directly taken an image, but rather created a replica of it?

Everyone has made excellent points and I would like to thank you again for replying, especialy as calmy and respectfully as you have done. I've broached this issue in other forums and usually get flamed.

Why did I bring it up and what specifically am I asking about? I brought it up beacause, at one time I was ignorant of copyright laws and freely used any graphic/sound on the net assuming it hurt no one. Secondly I am an artist who's work has been stolen and who's friends work has been stolen. Finally because I think following the law, even if you disagree with it is very important. I figure if you don't like a law, work to have it changed, don't break it. And I am refering mostly to graphics, but all copyrighted works should be considered.

Now the concensus is that using other peoples graphics in game is not hurting anyone, and at the moment it may be true. But when the game goes public I think that will change. Let me give you some examples. Using an image without the artists permission, in any way, is against the law, it hurts the artists feelings and disrespects the work they have done. It is also a potential loss of income and dishonest. When you use a graphic in game and it doesn't clearly state who created it people will think you did, and thats wrong.

When you sell an item (picture,T-shirt,etc) with someone elses graphic on it, you ARE making a profit, just not in RL money. Also in a lot of MMORPG's once they get popular people sell items and game money on EBay and other aution sites. Obviously this is wrong but it happens and theres not much anyone can do about it. In this instance you ARE making a profit from other artists work and it IS real money.

A lot of people think that since you are using graphics for non profit, or for educational purposes, it's not breaking the law but that's untrue. My purpose isn't to complain or nag, it's to protect. To protect the players who probably don't even know thier breaking the law. To protect the Game Designers because they made us such a lovely game and we certainly don't want it to go down the drain. And to protect the virtual environment. Because people tend to steal the same graphics from the same artists. Which means a VR full of graphic graffiti. It looks tacky and deminishes the quality of the truly unique art around it.

All I'm saying is, stealing is stealing however you look at it. The same picture all over the landscape is annoying and boring. Artists have feelings and rights and we should be empathetic, not to mention responsible for our actions. And when it comes down to it, I'd much rather see your unique creations than one more pixelated dragon ripoff.

Remember, artists have and will continue to sue (don't believe me, do a search on Google). There are consequences to all our actions. And if the law don't getcha, karma will

Good luck and blessings, Prana

P.S. I didn't forget you OneArmedNomad Once again I will respecfully disagree. I would like to counter your analogy with one of my own. Saying that artists shouldn't display thier work if they don't want it stolen is blaming the victim and takes all responsibilty from the criminal. Last time I checked we all had free will and were responsible for our own actions. Blaming an artist because someone chooses to steal from them is like saying, if he didn;t want to get shot he never should have left his house. It's my right to showcase my work on my own site which I pay for (one might say it's my virtual home). I do so to show my work and in the future to make a profit on it or as a porfolio for future jobs. People get to view it as a privelage not a right and not as a free for all. I have pictures on the wall of my home for you to look at, but that doesn't mean you can take them. Car dealers leave thier merchandise outdoors 24/7 but it's still illegal to steal one.

And if your wondering, I'm not a hypocrit lol. Several months back when I learned about copyright I deleted everything I ever downloaded through Kazaa, all songs, programs etc and haven't touched it since. It's a pain to take the time to make my own art but at least I can sleep at night knowing I did the right thing. I am the first to admit I stole from the net, but I also learned from my mistakes. I'm not here to judge, just to educate if I can.

no, i'm pretty sure it's not... i'm drawing this second-hand from my friend's work with a mod for Quake III, which uses art based on other id Software games, such as Quake I and Quake II... although the models and textures are similar to those in the other games, they were built from scratch by hand (not mechanically copied), and id said that was okay... but they wouldn't permit mechanical copies of the models and/or textures.

actually, technically any texture you upload is being distributed, exactly as you uploaded it, to anyone who comes within viewing range of it. to put the texture on an object, the SL servers don't tell the client how to draw what they see pixel by pixel... they send the flat textures to the client along with the coordinates and dimensions of every object in "viewing range" (which may be beyond what you have set in your "view distance" setting), and then it tells your client how to apply the textures to all the objects. if someone really wanted to, they could {-- procedure omitted --}* and get the textures exactly as the original user uploaded them. this can even bypasses the in-world permissions, to steal textures

* the procedure i originally knew of (worked with 0.4 and i think 0.5) was incredibly simple, and although they've changed the way the client handles texture data, there are still ways to get it, but it's much more difficult now. i will never reveal any exact procedures for doing this, nor any concepts of how to do it, for it would invariably be taken at some point and be used to steal someone else's work.

Yah I'm aware of the client handling the data, which is in non original format...you have to exploit the game to do this. Which is a bannable offense.

Read Brad's Templeton's 10 Myths page closely.

Yes. It is a violation of copyright as a "derivative work".

Oracle Omega

(Who often dresses as Brak, an avatar he bought at the Avatar Shop that violates copyright and trademarks. I even added supposed 'fair use' length sounds. It sure seemed strange to me that Linden stocked obviously infringing avatars in that shop.)

Brak was made by a player and placed in the shop by a player, not by a Linden.

Interesting stuff. There have been contests to do look alike (superhero & such) avatars and there are several people who have made anime avs.

I know that I had reservations about making my 501 jeans but then a friend who works at Levi said they'd be thrilled to have their product in game. So then is it a copyright issue or "product placement" advertising?

This is obviously a very complex issue.

I stand corrected. Looked like an 'official' shop to me. Some Lindens certainly are aware it is in there (I saw a Linden in that shop just the other day.)

Does this mean I can put anything I want in there as well?
[ A rhetorical question. ]

Oracle Omega

I've felt for a long time that the ideals of free speech and those of copyrights and patents are at odds. On the one hand we are saying that we all should have the freedom to share information, whatever that may be. and on the other, we are saying that we can only share information if we have permission to do so. I know that my explanations of the two are overly simplified. But when you boil it down I believe that this is what we come to.

When we say "free speech" what is it that we mean? IMO it has nothing to do with moving my mouth and making sounds. It has to do with expressing ideas. Expressing can also be called communicating. Ideas are information.

Music, art, a technical specification, these are all information in different forms, representing different things. A song might represent someone’s feelings about something. A picture could be an advertisement for something.

The value is not in the form that the information takes(what the song sounds like), nor in what it represents(the authors feelings), but in the effect that the knowledge of this information makes in the world(when it makes you happy). This is why information has value.

What copyrights attempt to do is to give value to the form of information, to charge you for the information, because it creates an effect in the world. It is my opinion that copyrights fail to recognize that once the knowledge from the information is gained that a copy of the information is now worthless. To try to control its communication after it’s been released is pointless and impossible. It’s already out there and you can’t take it back.

Imagine if Einstein could have effectively copyrighted his general theory of relativity, or if the US patented the nuclear bomb. We wouldn’t have to worry about rogue countries developing one because they don’t have the right to use that information.

The problem with information is, it can’t be handcuffed. People can. In this age, what we call the “information revolution”, it’s already evident that the battle between sharing information and the futile desire to control it is escalating. On both sides, only people suffer the consequences, not information. What we need is a new way of thinking about information, because we will continue to communicate, no matter what.


I know this doesn’t address SL, or laws specifically. I just wanted to post my general view to see what some of you think. To me, copyrights and patents are B***S***.

Copy a "texture" off of an object and into your inventory. That "texture" could actually be a picture of something copywritten. Open up the texture from your inventory, and you'll see the "Save as..." button in the bottom left of that window. Click that, and you can take it from SL, and put it onto your computer.

Now you know that you can download stuff off of Second Life.

As for the rest of the issue, I choose to remain silent.
*Uploads more Matrix: Reloaded scenes...*

I'm going to have to disagree with you Ope.

I am a big supporter of freedom of speech, press, etc. Our freedoms are what make us great. We have rights and should use them. But so do other people. They have the right to earn a decent living off thier property, to recieve credit for thier own work, the right to be treated with respect and consideration.

I agree with you that we should be able to share information freely, and we are. Ideas can't be copyrighted. But the exact way in which they are expressed can be and are. This doesn't stop you though. You can explain love to someone in your own words instead of copying the text directly from a love song. You can draw your own version of a cat without stealing mine. You can build your own house without ripping off my architectural plans. No one is stopping you from comunicating, expressing, sharing. They are only making you do the work yourself, tell it or show it in your own way, instead of using someone elses work.

Why should I work all day to create a graphic just so you can take it and use it and not pay a thing? Why should I spend my time, effort, money creating a beautiful song when I could have been doing a million other things and then let you take it and say it's yours and not be compensated or even recognised for my own work?

No, there have to be laws, rules and regulations otherwise anyone could take Bill Gates design plans and make the products before him and sell them as thier own. Anyone could just take anything you made or said or wrote and use it any way they saw fit without your permission. The world would be in chaos and the basic human laws of right and wrong, of fairness, kindness and compassion would be trampled on. We should have enough respect as human beings not to steal from one another. I garauntee you that if someone stole something of yours you would be mighty quick to call on help from the same laws you reject.

What are we teaching our kids when we are the adults and steal from each other? What does it say about us that we break our own laws and act like it's no big deal?

P.S. You'll notice my quote there at the bottom. You should think on it a bit. Think about why we steal from the internet but not from a brick and mortar store. We do so because it's anonymous and no one will know so that makes it ok. YOu would never dream of stealing a shirt in front of your friends and family but you will steal a song or graphic off the net where no one can see you and judge you. 99.9% of the time if you are so ashamed of something you only do it in secret it's because you know it's wrong. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you truly believe what you said, I encourage you to work to change the laws, instead of simply breaking them.