New Land Changes in SL: Town Hall

BAH and there was me considering another sim... but well.. now I would be insane! I was just slightly mad before.

Michi, I think this would be one cool idea. I would certainly enjoy one Ansheopoly

But if you look at recent full sim auctions you will find out that majority of auctions other people won. There is at least one douzen of land barons who have been regularily bidding on this size of land.

You mean, besides Anshee and Anshey and AnsheeAlt1 and AnshesHiredAssistant?

Where do we see evidence of this?

No one seems to have realised yet that a very likely outcome of this lunatic scheme is that some or all of the Land Barons will form a cartel and effectively fix SL land prices at whatever they want...

I find it difficult to believe that LL are stupid enough not to realise that this is almost certain to happen - so I can only assume that they want it to happen!

Thanks a lot LL - next time you decide to screw the residents (AKA paying customers), maybe a little foreplay first?

Err... I think most people realise that. Well, everyone except Philip. Or rather, he realises but doesnt give a fuck about the little guy.

Right, that's my point. Call it a Q&A session with Philip Linden then, not a Town Hall. A Town Hall means that you gather the community together to hear their input on important issues. I'm not necessarily against the changes, just the tone of "Town Halls" where they basically announce changes is kinda disingenuous.

Maybe Kris, but no one had actually come out and said it...

Rumour has it that there is going to be an assassin at the Town Hall with a sniper rifle - some public spirited citizen has taken a contract out on PL!

Ahem... you replied in the thread where JSecure and I said it. Do you not read before you post?

Just some notes:
- LL's going to be probably losing money on this. There's going to be less island sales; and LL's going to be hurt by the reduced competition at auctions. I dont think this is profit motivated.
- This is probably a change in attempt to stabilise the economy. One which I think is very foolish, since the L$ needs to be weaned off Land being it's backbone. Some day in the distant future, LL is going to allow third parties to host sims; the moment this happens, that backbone is going to be broken into several pieces. All this is going to do is strengthen the ties between the two.

-Adam

Well, the question is - what is the queue look like for SL? If there is an inventory backlog then less sales will not equate to less cash (though perhaps, less profit).



Maybe. Maybe more people will buy because there are more full sims available.



I do agree with that definitely. I just don't think we can jump to conclusions about how this will affect their cash intake.




Yup!



I don't understand. Are you saying L$ is bad for SL? Land is bad for SL?



This depends. I think if LL reworks their copyright infringmenet policies, they may find that the value add of their world (banishment to anyone who infringes) could create a lot of interesting demand for people to stay involved in the LL grid only.
-Adam[/QUOTE]

I'd say there isnt a huge backlog - mainly because LL has remained fairly prompt about getting new sims up and running within a week of the request. That implies that they are still under capacity.



Unlikely. The majority of land owners are people under 1024sqm. This is going to hurt that market more than any other.




I'm saying the L$'s dependence on a single factor of the economy is bad. It's a case of 'all your eggs in one basket'. The L$, and Land on their own are fantastic for SL - core concepts infact, that without it would fail. However, having the L$ so dependent on land is a bad thing.




Possible; but I wouldnt count myself among them; nor would I count that service as irreplicable. There will be a large number of users who shift, probably the majority of them would be the technically inclined. Either way, it will have a huge impact on land prices.

-Adam

If I wasn't interested in Linden Lab perpetuating their existence, I'd say 'Screw Land'. But I can't say that without thinking of the good people who work for LL. This change just formalizes what everyone already knows - the majority of auctions are won by a consistent group of people, and LL doesn't have the time anymore to be pizza-boy and cut up sims.

If this continues LL's existence, ok great, but I think this may be handing over key elements of the 'kingdom' to those motivated by something other than SL's continued prosperity.

I'm sure there will be a mass freakout once the word spreads, but hey, I'm tiered to zero extra land fees, so I guess it doesn't really affect me. If LL ever took away the sandboxes, then I'd consider giving up, but that hasn't happened, nor does it seem likely.

Philip - be careful with this, I can't see where this will take you guys, but I think it may end up being a bit more power than the average user can handle.

Ah! But I not only read before I post - I note the date and time too... I posted here before I posted that other thread. But I don't read every thread in the forum first!

Oh boy this is a biggy. I read the email twice from Robin first time I had to pick my jaw up off the desk. 2nd time I thought of the "why" LL is doing this.

then I remembered...

Long ago I got the impression that it was LL's intention to someday just sell islands so no I am not shocked. I am however suprized that it is this soon.

Sure there are questions like; "why the price increase?" Honestly I had to justify the 980 the price increase makes me nervous tbh and I am not sure I would buy another island.

Land barons taking over setting the price raking it in. yikes say it isn't so. Sorry but it's another limit and apparently i dont dig limits in rl and even less in a virtual space.

On the flip side perhaps this is a way to deter the not so serious island owners maybe there is a huge turn over and LL cant justify that price for the servers.

Maybe they do want to put land management into the hands of the ppl. If so I think it would only be fair to role back their last decision on land sales on islands showing up in the find menu.

Dunno just thoughts running threw my head after very little sleep last night.

Cat

maxx my sim is a sand box right now feel free to use it Faded Reality island. Till I decide what the hell im building next.

Cat

Interesting; so, there are different facets of this--

Island setup cost rises to US$1250, mainland sims are henceforce auctioned as exclusively whole, starting at US$1000. What are the factors going into this decision?

In part, I hope, it's intended to encourage people to live on the mainland. Private islands as secluded thematic builds of artisans are cool. Money farms with land and users carefully massaged to generate maximum profits are not, and an increasing number of horror stories and rumors of downright shady business deals are dripping out of one of the largest 'island continents.' Pouring some ice water on that party could only be a good thing.

In terms of mainland auctions, it's apparent that LL doesn't want to spend time dealing with a large number of small land parcels; it takes time, and with as many released lots and the growing number of sims outpacing the on-grid linden ratio, it's more work, less time, etc. This is consistant with prior policy, particularly public land. Also, there would seem to be this steadfast belief that 'the market' or the land economy is providing services or benefits that help the SL userbase as a whole. Prominent Lindens have, in the past, stated they feel this progression of land market control into the hands of profiteers benefits the viability and health of our community. And with the "come to SL and make money in cyberspace" aspect a growing cornerstone of how SL is being marketed, this move seems very much in the spirit of LL's 'SL economic expansion' roadmap thus far.

There remain other channels for getting land, so this move is "only" an obstacle to non-profit users who wish to buy LL auctioned land. But, really, $1000 might as well be $10,000, as far as many of us are concerned. So this policy shift (perhaps unwittingly) makes a sort of a manifesto statement, "Auctions are exclusively the domain of the people who are here to make and spend large quantities of money. The direct auction needs of users with non-economic goals are no longer worth our time." Somewhat mitigating (but not really) might be that the auction numbers will show 'regular users' weren't benefitting from an auction system already dominated by the profiteers.

This issue is also hard because, from a practical standpoint, LL has very finite resources for land management, so increasing the efficiency at the cost of universal access is attractive. So, there's got to be some pressure there to come up with a solution to this fantastic mess. I don't really believe that the goal is to further disenfranchize the users here for myriad non-capitalist activities. But, in a very real sense, it's hard not to feel like this a betrayal of the trust. On the surface, it almost seems like a departure from the fundamental ideal that anyone here in the "cyberspace" LL has so carefullly nurtured can participate in an egalitarian way and gain based upon their creative skill and talent. Is it a migration to the view that, "Users with money are more equal than others"? Stated differently, it is now starting to feel as if LL policies are reflecting the view that we are not a first-class citizen under the established world order unless we wish to play "the money game," our other merits be damned.

That's the most negative light I can really cast on the situation. Less emotionally, this isn't so much about status within the system and access to priviledges, but there's a very real sense of abandonment as Linden pulls services that were once universal and throws the sheep to the wolves (or perhaps gives the keys to the henhouse to the neighborhood fox.) It's hard to believe that, when founding the principles of SecondLife, the concensus of the LL team was that it should be a goal to create a grid in which players are systematically pressured to submit to the economic will of others. Are there no Lindens who feel that perhaps things have swung too far in favor of the economic dominance over the many by a few who are serving only their personal gods of profit and power? Is there a line, somewhere, ANYWHERE, that LL will not cross, or are we going to all need to lay down and accept an ongoing erosion of choice under the distressing shadow of hegemonic and monopolistic power?

Well, I'll wash my hands of that issue for a while. Philip Linden, we'll be watching you today. Please don't be ambiguous or coy when you step up to the podium and share your vision of where this will be taking SecondLife, nor of what you believe it really means for all segments and walks of life here.

(edited for grammar)

deleted my questions, chromal just answered them

Yes..the whiners. Those people that love SL for it's creativity and it's social aspects, and not for the $$$ that can be made here. The folks that see land barony as a way to pay even more for land.

Guess what? Not everyone has alot of money, and not everyone can justify spending huge amounts on a virtual land. But there are alot of folks that could build wonderful things, from unique and beautiful homes, to fascinating sculptures, to queit, peaceful virtual parklands. But with tier costs already high, land barons being given total control of new land and the ability to price hike at will, and reduced stripends, many folks will never have that chance. Even more folks will, instead of building things just for the sake of enjoyment for themselves and other residents, will be forced to always look for something commercial to build. The rich will indeed get richer, and the poor will either get poorer or move on.

Sure..it's LL's call. Sure, if we don't like it we can leave. Sure, LL is a business and has to make money. All of those combined doesn't mean it's right.

Don't call me a whiner, unless you'd like me to call you a few choice words back. I'd rather fight for those that don't have alot of money, than to fight to give more money to those that are already well off any day of the week.



Rebalance? How is that going to balance anything, other than the SL money grabbers checking accounts?

Very well said Chromal and David! I applaud you.

Cat

I buy a sim at auction for US$1000.
My tier goes up by US$195 a month.
I need to make US$1195 to break even.
At an average (over time) US$<->L$ exchange rate of 4,
parcels would need to be sold at L$4.56/m2 just to break even.

If it might take longer than the time remaining in the current billing cycle to sell the land,
a second tier payment of US$195 would need to be made.
This would bring the selling price to L$5.31/m2 just to break even.

If Linden Lab reserves public space in the form of roads or waterways, that portion of the land is not available to be resold. If the amount reserved is just 10%,
parcels would need to be sold at L$5.90/m2 just to break even.

Now all this assumes that no one else bid against me in my bid for the whole-sim parcel.
If the bidding raises the end price by as little as 25% more, or to US$1250,
parcels would need to be sold at L$7.37/m2 just to break even.

Now someone who is willing to pony up this large sum of money for a month will not be going through all this trouble and risk "just to break even". They will want a profit.
Lets asume they aren't too greedy and just round up to the next whole L$...


Welcome to the world of L$8 per square meter land.
(More for mature.)

[ This may result in driving the exhange rate down, making L$ less valuable in US$ to compensate for a near doubling of average base land prices. ]

If land truly goes up to L$8 , then I will farking celebrate when i make over 100% profit on the land I'm holding now, bought for less than L$4
Who needs land anyway... repeat after me, SL is all about the people. It's all about who you can hang out with, or hire, or who can hire you, who wants to buy and sell your stuff, who wants to play a game with you... stop buying land just for the heck of it. If you're not really going to use it, why own it?
Maybe this will encourage people to get together and buy a sim for a coherent purpose instead of the scattered mishmash of prefab housing the world has turned into.

OMG! True and Hilarious!

@8.0 also based on $4.00 per 1k L$

512m2 = L$ 4096 = $12.00 US plus subscription fees of 9.95 per mo. = 21.95 us for the first month

1024m2 = L$ 8192 = $24.00 per month plus 9.95 = $33.95 us for the first month

2048m2 = L$ 16384 = $48.00 per month plus 9.95 = $ 57.95 us for the first month.

*subject to change without notice, please add in inventory tax if that is passed also.

I worked the numbers last night, and Tiger is spot on.

This may lead to the end of the PG sims, as nobody will want to shell out $1000+ for a PG sim as the resale value has always been significanly lower than M sims.

I get very excited whenever drastic changes are made, this is certainly no exception. Only time will tell if this was a good move, I think it can be.

I do have a few burning questions about these changes that I hope will be addressed at today's town hall.

What will replace the $L sink that was once $L auctions?

How will the infrastructure be handled?(roads, waterways...)

Will telehub sims be included in this process?

Will the first land plots be partitioned from these sims prior to them being auctioned? (/me shudders)

As far as the increase in cost of the private sims, I saw this coming from a mile away. I don't think that will have too much impact.