Virtual Income, Land Barons, and the IRS
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-22-2005 12:29
From: katykiwi Moonflower Not initially.
Tax Court proceedings are quasi criminal cases. The tax debt is a civil liability, however the penalty for nonpayment evasion is a criminal penalty. It is the only area of law where the possible sanction for a civil debt liability can result in incarceration.
In the US when criminal charges are brought against a defendant, the prosecution has the initial burden of proof to prove all the elements of the crime. The accused does not have to say one word in her defense, nor does she have to prove her innocence.
In Tax Court, the burden of proof starts out on the other side. The Defendant, taxpayer, has the initial burden to prove he does not owe the debt for whatever reason. If the defendant meets that burden, then the burden shifts to the IRS to prove the tax is owed.
The initial presumption is that the taxpayer owes the tax.
This burden is stated in the US Code, Title 26, Section 7491 as follows:
26 U.S.C.§7491, Burden of proof
(a) Burden shifts where taxpayer produces credible evidence
(1) General rule If, in any court proceeding, a taxpayer introduces credible evidence with respect to any factual issue relevant to ascertaining the liability of the taxpayer for any tax imposed by subtitle A or B, the Secretary shall have the burden of proof with respect to such issue. (2) Limitations Paragraph (1) shall apply with respect to an issue only if—
(A) the taxpayer has complied with the requirements under this title to substantiate any item;
(B) the taxpayer has maintained all records required under this title and has cooperated with reasonable requests by the Secretary for witnesses, information, documents, meetings, and interviews; and (C) in the case of a partnership, corporation, or trust, the taxpayer is described in section 7430 (c)(4)(A)(ii). Subparagraph (C) shall not apply to any qualified revocable trust (as defined in section 645 (b)(1)) with respect to liability for tax for any taxable year ending after the date of the decedent’s death and before the applicable date (as defined in section 645 (b)(2)).
(3) Coordination Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any issue if any other provision of this title provides for a specific burden of proof with respect to such issue.
(b) Use of statistical information on unrelated taxpayers In the case of an individual taxpayer, the Secretary shall have the burden of proof in any court proceeding with respect to any item of income which was reconstructed by the Secretary solely through the use of statistical information on unrelated taxpayers.
(c) Penalties Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Secretary shall have the burden of production in any court proceeding with respect to the liability of any individual for any penalty, addition to tax, or additional amount imposed by this title. not initially and that is what the IRS has loved for years because most taxpayers are scared shitless and sign up for a payment plan immediately....but there's been a shift in recent years of people not being scared and fighting the IRS. I would bet if our forefathers knew about the IRS they would come back from the dead and start another revolution.
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Deklax Fairplay
Black Sun
Join date: 2 Jul 2004
Posts: 357
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03-22-2005 12:33
From: katykiwi Moonflower I was talking about assets in the USA. (see prior posts about seizing telehub property and linden accounts.) Is it a joke? Maybe, who knows. I know a lot of people said the Justice Dept would not go after Martha Stewart for 50K, but Justice was looking for an example.
I know that the IRS is waiting for the right cases to test these kinds of issues. Who knows, maybe one day we will see members in world with the last name "IRS." Blah Blah Blah. More action less talk Katy. *yawn* From: Bruno Buckenburger you should be aware of bar guidelines for tossing out this type of information on an Internet message board Now that is interesting... http://www.elawyering.org/tools/practices.shtml is a good reference for anyone (like myself) who never knew of such guidelines. Are you a member of the ABA? The basic guidelines include 1) Contact Information 2) Dating [of] Material 3) Jurisdiction Information 4) Limits of Legal Information 5) Links [to other resources] 6) Legal Citations 7) Referrals [to actual or extra advice]  Permissions 9) Terms and Conditions and 10) a Privacy Statement. Now, Granted some apply directly to sites hosted and maintained by lawyers but I have to say many of these do seem to be applicable in this situation and you've seemed to neglect many of them ( at least 1, 3, 5 & 7). Were you aware that law advice or information online was held to a higher standard by the american bar association than a layman's communcation would be? Do you not care? Just curious. Would I report this to the ABA? Maybe. Dont piss me off. 
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-22-2005 12:38
From: Deklax Fairplay Blah Blah Blah. More action less talk Katy. *yawn* Now that is interesting... http://www.elawyering.org/tools/practices.shtml is a good reference for anyone (like myself) who never knew of such guidelines. Are you a member of the ABA? The basic guidelines include 1) Contact Information 2) Dating [of] Material 3) Jurisdiction Information 4) Limits of Legal Information 5) Links [to other resources] 6) Legal Citations 7) Referrals [to actual or extra advice]  Permissions 9) Terms and Conditions and 10) a Privacy Statement. Now, Granted some apply directly to sites hosted and maintained by lawyers but I have to say many of these do seem to be applicable in this situation and you've seemed to neglect many of them ( at least 1, 3, 5 & 7). Were you aware that law advice or information online was held to a higher standard by the american bar association than a layman's communcation would be? Do you not care? Just curious. Would I report this to the ABA? Maybe. Dont piss me off.  She hasn't told anyone specifically how to handle their affairs concerning taxes and the general information she has given was in the course of debate with many participants....you would be hard pressed to prove that she has given out any information that has been detrimental to any of the participants.....Just because she is a lawyer doesn't mean she can't discuss varying opinion on tax code.
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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03-22-2005 12:46
From: Talen Morgan She hasn't told anyone specifically how to handle their affairs concerning taxes and the general information she has given was in the course of debate with many participants....you would be hard pressed to prove that she has given out any information that has been detrimental to any of the participants.....Just because she is a lawyer doesn't mean she can't discuss varying opinion on tax code. I didnt see that post until you quoted it since I have that member muted. If he didnt understand your point on his own, then it will never happen. Thanks for stating the obvious to him, but really he is just trying to be provocative and gain attention. Anyone can discuss the law and government....its called freedom of expression last I heard.
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Deklax Fairplay
Black Sun
Join date: 2 Jul 2004
Posts: 357
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03-22-2005 12:49
From: katykiwi Moonflower Concerning a "Chinese woman in Germany who earns six figures a year speculating on Second Life real estate," nonresident aliens must file Form 1040NR if you are engaged in a trade or business in the United States, or have any other US source income on which the tax was not fully paid by an amount withheld. There is a public statement by Philip Rosedale of this income along with a lengthy self incriminating statement against interest posted here by one earning a significant amount of cash in SL. I'm not so sure about that talen. Even in her very first post before any conversation began she specifically addressed a single players situation and attempted to "educate" her on exactly what she should do to follow the law. In fact, interestingly enough, Katykiwi even admits to it as fact, saying (and i quote) "Your reaction is odd considering that I gave you free legal advice about not publishing self incriminating statements" in response to a response to her original advice. Thats pretty darn clear that it was more than common discourse.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-22-2005 12:57
From: Deklax Fairplay I'm not so sure about that talen. Even in her very first post before any conversation began she specifically addressed a single players situation and attempted to "educate" her on exactly what she should do to follow the law. In fact, interestingly enough, Katykiwi even admits to it as fact, saying (and i quote) "Your reaction is odd considering that I gave you free legal advice about not publishing self incriminating statements" in response to a response to her original advice. Thats pretty darn clear. Well good luck with that because it will go no where. the advice wasn't solicited and it is her opinion. To say that she can't state certain facts as she knows them is rediculous considering we have a little thing called the first amendment. Now if Katy told everyone they don't have to pay their taxes for a certain reason and backed that up with the fact that she's a lawyer and then some asshat does what she says then yes they could go after her....and probably lose. The fact remains what Katy has stated and quoted throughout the thread is tangible fact that can be found by anyone interested in tax law and American tax codes.....she's not reinventing the wheel just stating fact.
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Mojo Bliss
Registered User
Join date: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 213
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03-22-2005 15:05
From: Deklax Fairplay I'm not so sure about that talen. Even in her very first post before any conversation began she specifically addressed a single players situation and attempted to "educate" her on exactly what she should do to follow the law. In fact, interestingly enough, Katykiwi even admits to it as fact, saying (and i quote) "Your reaction is odd considering that I gave you free legal advice about not publishing self incriminating statements" in response to a response to her original advice. Thats pretty darn clear that it was more than common discourse. Hey as the richest person in SL she is being watched by the unwashed hordes. And maybe you are preaching on deaf ears.
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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03-22-2005 15:26
From: someone The misconception that everyone has is the fact that we have assigned a dollar value to Lindens based on 3rd party site agreements.
Shadow, do your research. The GOM value of the l$ is quoted on a secondlife website. That may not be 100% legal endorsement, but it is an endorsement of some kind. Plus in 1.6 they will link to currency buying web pages specifically from in game.
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Deklax Fairplay
Black Sun
Join date: 2 Jul 2004
Posts: 357
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03-22-2005 15:37
From: Mojo Bliss Hey as the richest person in SL she is being watched by the unwashed hordes. And maybe you are preaching on deaf ears. What an insightful comment, Thanks! You obviously put a lot of thought into that! Welcome to SL! Would more listen and agree if I malign our most heavily invested contributors and threaten people with contacting government agencies about things I have absolutely no proof of just to harass them with my own petty jealousies? I'll try it out for a while and get back to you.
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Better Dead Than Red!
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Mojo Bliss
Registered User
Join date: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 213
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03-22-2005 16:23
From: Deklax Fairplay What an insightful comment, Thanks! You obviously put a lot of thought into that! Welcome to SL! Would more listen and agree if I malign our most heavily invested contributors and threaten people with contacting government agencies about things I have absolutely no proof of just to harass them with my own petty jealousies? I'll try it out for a while and get back to you. Your srcsm is lamo and plays to you know more than I do. Sooner or later this tax issue will be dealt with. Maybe kathy is pointing out that when claims are made that $100,000 us is being made in this game such public announcements have real life repercussions concerning money.
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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03-23-2005 09:03
From: Shadow Weaver So this means your comming to my place next time so I dont have to hide under the bed right?
(((hugs))) lolololololol That was YOU under the bed? *mutters something about Cthulhu*
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Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004
Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
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03-23-2005 09:05
From: Surreal Farber lolololololol
That was YOU under the bed? *mutters something about Cthulhu* hey hey hey no mentioning dads name...mortals dont understand him quite yet and ghod the expense for plastic surgery is unbearable...
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Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden> New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisionsOR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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03-23-2005 09:07
Tentacles rule!!
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Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004
Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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03-23-2005 10:00
this thread is off the rails. Any Lindens around?
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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03-23-2005 10:44
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Pathfinder Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 507
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03-23-2005 11:04
This is a very good topic for discussion.
Rather than give this thread a teleport into oblivion, or lock it so that it sinks into the briny depths, I'd like to give people a chance to get back "on topic" and avoid having this thread devolve into interpersonal conflict arguments.
<Path attempts to nudge the train back on the rails>
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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03-23-2005 11:05
From: Pathfinder Linden This is a very good topic for discussion.
Rather than give this thread a teleport into oblivion, or lock it so that it sinks into the briny depths, I'd like to give people a chance to get back "on topic" and avoid having this thread devolve into interpersonal conflict arguments.
<Path attempts to nudge the train back on the rails> I agree 100%
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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03-23-2005 11:35
You can hate the IRS, capitalists, lawyers, land barons...whomever you like. The reality is that SL is gaining more publicity and along with it attention. One feature of SL mentioned regularly by staff, journalists, and members is the ability to buy and sell virtual land and items, and to make real money.
Anyone making 100K US online, whether it is on Ebay or SL, or any online game or business, is going to attract attention. My guess is a lot of attention since the source of income is in the category of online gaming.
It is just a matter of time before ALL taxing authorities look to the new virtual sources of income. It matters little to me if any person in SL (other than me,) gets hit with an audit. You dont need to be a tax or legal specialist to realize that when you have ANY unreported income you run a serious risk if you are audited.
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
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03-23-2005 11:48
From: Pathfinder Linden This is a very good topic for discussion.
Rather than give this thread a teleport into oblivion, or lock it so that it sinks into the briny depths, I'd like to give people a chance to get back "on topic" and avoid having this thread devolve into interpersonal conflict arguments.
<Path attempts to nudge the train back on the rails> Pathfinder is my Hero....  Now on to the serious part. Last few days I have spent trying to elaborate on the distinct differences between 3rd party sites and the valuation of the Linden based on Linden Labs. People as of late still do not get the distinction that the L$ is simply an inworld currency that has no direct affiliation with any 3rd party website. Sure we say "Trading" Lindens for dollars. However, per current tax law and wage accumulation structures having currency in a game is not a direct representation of value. Value is applied when two partys agree to an exchange action IE using a third party site to conduct a legal agreement to exchange real world currency for a service rendered. Ah so you say your trading Lindens while in the Real world you a merely providing a service agreement. The service agreement being if Customer A gives Service Contractor A Bid to aquire in world funds then the culimination of that service agreement is when Contractor A gives Customer A their in world gaming money why recieving RL $ for the transaction. Thus with Lindens never really leaving the Second Life Environment it has never become a tangeable substance thus cannot be valued. Some may think I take this lightly but unfortunately I can't as being one of three people owning a Trademark License agreement with LL I have to treat all transactions as a personal business hence the reason for talking to Lawyers and Accountants. So for the speculators out there speculate all you wish about the Linden Dollar as it really has no relevance. However, the moment you engage in a service of "Trading" you have earned RL funds for your efforts and thus much pay compensation to the IRS if you reside in the US. If you don't Live in the US my notes here have no real value to you as I do not know your countrys laws but I am as of late fully versed on the US's in reference Lindens and Lindens being taxed. Shadow Weaver
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Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden> New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisionsOR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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03-23-2005 11:50
I love it when people try to argue about law and bureaucracy, as though law and bureaucracy must respond to any of their (often perfectly sensible) arguments.
That's
not
how
it
works.
The IRS is behind the curve. Almost always. But they do catch up. Almost always. And when they catch up, people who aren't prepared get hurt. Almost always.
If people are making six figure incomes in SL, the IRS will respond. They want your money. They will try to find a way to get it. They are very good at that. Be safe. Report, file, consult an expert. Assume that you will have to pay eventually, and figure out the ways to cover yourself and minimize the impact. Don't just try to convince yourself in a forum argument.
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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03-23-2005 12:06
One more example of the attention being drawn to money making in SL: Making real money in SL in the news again
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-23-2005 12:17
From: Shadow Weaver <stuff> while i suspect what you're saying is sound legal advice, unless you want to venture actual legal advice for the sl populace in general and you want to be responsible for it if people follow it, you should be careful. what may apply to your particular situation may not apply to someone else. it's a grey area at best until the irs makes policy or a tax court rules, and people are better off talking to their own lawyers if they are concerned.
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
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03-23-2005 12:51
From: StoneSelf Karuna it's a grey area at best until the irs makes policy or a tax court rules, and people are better off talking to their own lawyers if they are concerned. You see only soveriegn Nations can have Valued Currency. If the Irs decides to pursue this through court cases and then imdemnifys that all "Game" Currency holds valuation and can be taxed they then in turn have to recognize each of the game corporations as independent nations. Sorry thats not going to happen on US Soil. So, whats the answer for the IRS and Uncle Sam to get their "Fair Share". Very simple regulate the actual exchange of established Real life Currencys that are used in the transactions. How can they do this, well GOM only accepts Pay Pal and Credit cards or banking institution deposits as well as does IGE. But both organizations file their own tax returns and have tangeable records that define the transactions taking place. Thus can be "Researched" and "Legaly" held accountable for all transactions. The reason I mention only those two is they are legitimate sources that are filed not only with governmental agencys for business practice but have legal historical documentation to back up their transactions. Basically what you have argued more than once is until the IRS makes a decision to tax our monopoly money we have to be cautious. When in actuality its I will sell you 4000 Monopoly dollars for $5 US dollars ...well the Monopoly money has no value and can be printed on any PC but...that $5 is real money and when you recieve it its considered income PERIOD. Income laws are already covered by the IRS and don't need further adjustment in that definition. Don't get me wrong I avidly push that people should seek out reputable tax service or Tax Attorneys that will set them strait. But what they find out will be no different than what I am stating here. When all the misperceptions are pushed aside and thick headed individuals pull thier collective heads out of their collective 4th points of contacts. Will they see that its simple basic understanding of seperation of Reality versus Virtual Reality? I doubt it but thats another discussion entirely. "I can see it now when I play the sims at home on my PC all that money that I earn with ROSEBUD will be taxed by the IRS...LMAO....NOT!" Shadow
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Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden> New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisionsOR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com
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Deklax Fairplay
Black Sun
Join date: 2 Jul 2004
Posts: 357
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03-23-2005 14:02
Could everyone possibly repeat their exact positions over again for those not willing read before this post? Apparently threads get locked or thrown away on a dime if they arent actively spewing flowers and happyness into the community. Lets start the coversation all over again so that doesn't happen.  Can i have my authorized script, please, Pathfinder? From: From Article posted by Kati It turns out Linden Lab is searching for its very own Alan Greenspan. The company wants to hire an adviser to independently monitor the game's economy and recommend policy changes to keep it stable. Its a miracle! *bows down before the mighty lindens*
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Better Dead Than Red!
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
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03-23-2005 14:07
From: Deklax Fairplay Could everyone possibly repeat their exact positions over again for those not willing read before this post? Apparently threads get locked or thrown away on a dime if they arent actively spewing flowers and happyness into the community. Lets start the coversation all over again so that doesn't happen.  Can i have my authorized script, please, Pathfinder? Its a miracle! *bows down before the mighty lindens* <<<Shadow starts throwing flowers into the Crowd.... Meanwhile...Shadows monkeybutts run up and SPraypaint Deklax Red and run away quickly....
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Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden> New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisionsOR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com
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